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Thread: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

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    Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Show and Tell

    Each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield.
    If someone were to attempt to put a planeswalker onto the battlefield, exactly what is the ruling? Clearly, the planeswalker would be returned to their hand (and a warning would likely be given), but would the game state revert to making S&T choices, or does the faulty player "choose" not to put a legal permanent onto the battlefield?

    For example:
    Player A casts Show and Tell. It resolves. Players make their choices and reveal.
    Player A chooses Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    Player B chooses Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Player A: "That's not a legal choice."
    Player B: "Well, Ok. I choose Oblivion Ring."

    In this situation, Player B gains an advantage by seeing what behemoth came to school, and adjusts his play appropriately.

    I'm curious as to what the proper way to handle this is.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Investigation occurs. If play was deliberate, Player who dropped Jace is going to Dairy Queen. If it was accidental, we rewind and resolve the spell correctly.
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  3. #3

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    How would you investigate if it was intentional or not?

  4. #4

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    My apologies; I deleted posts that speculated on the answer and/or were discussing strategy.

    So how does one determine if a situation is a problem, and how that problem is handled? At competitive, it's the Infraction Procedure Guide (IPG). At regular, the JAR gives judges much more leeway in resolving situations in the way that seems most fair to them, but even at regular good remedies are going to look a lot like the IPG remedies.

    What type of infraction is choosing an invalid type for Show and Tell? Well, it's Game Play Error, but not Missed Trigger, Failure to Reveal, Looking at Extra, Drawing Extra, or Improper Draw at Start - so it's a Game Rule Violation, the catch all.

    The relevant part of the Remedy section of GRV says:
    If the error was discovered within a time frame in which a player could reasonably be expected to notice the error and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game, the judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the error. Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error. Cards incorrectly placed in hand are returned to the location in the zone from which they were moved (if the identity of the incorrectly drawn card is not known to all players, a random card is returned instead). Once the game is backed up, it continues from that point.

    The error was immediately caught, so the game can certainly be backed up. What was the point of error? Attempting to put invalid type for Show and Tell into play. What was the point immediately prior to the error? Show and Tell resolving, just prior to players putting things into play.

    From that point all players can choose a new card, the same card, or nothing at all as they wish.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  5. #5

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Dia_Bot View Post
    How would you investigate if it was intentional or not?
    Questioning of the player making the error and using judgment. The vast majority of the time a situation like this will be an honest mistake; not many players are dumb enough to attempt to fish for information like that and those few are generally not difficult to catch if a judge is paying attention.

    Most game play errors reveal information to one or both players; unfortunate but not something that's going to prevent us from fixing the situation if we can.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    The relevant part of the Remedy section of GRV says:
    ...and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game...
    But isn't in this case the course of the game completely disrupted due to the extra information gained?

  7. #7

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post
    But isn't in this case the course of the game completely disrupted due to the extra information gained?
    No, it is not. Any backup will almost inevitably involve some information being gained.

    The statement you quoted sounds kind of vague, but what it means is to avoid very complex backups - the backup we are talking about here is anything but complex.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    The decision to backup the game state is made regardless the impact on the outcome of the game? Honest question.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    The decision to backup the game state is made regardless the impact on the outcome of the game? Honest question.
    Yes.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Rules are underdeveloped then. Choosing a legal card at random from his hand should be the maximum he could hope for, but gaining an advantage from screwing up should not be possible.

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Bear in mind that Game Rule Violation carries the penalty of a Warning, which happens to be the same penalty as Looking at Extra Cards, another instance where you can similarly gain information by screwing up.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post
    Rules are underdeveloped then. Choosing a legal card at random from his hand should be the maximum he could hope for, but gaining an advantage from screwing up should not be possible.
    I am sorry you feel that way; the IPG is designed to handle the greatest number of situations possible in the most consistent and fair manner possible.

    There is no way you can prevent "gaining an advantage from screwing up", especially if you want to have a consistent way of handling situations.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  13. #13

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    If your idea of cheating is "Intentionally commit an error that is guaranteed to be caught so you can gain minor information advantage by getting a judge involved" is pretty much always going to be caught.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    @cdr: I don't know. In most classic card games, actually in any other competitive event like any sport, it is "you screw up, you're fucked". Even if it didn't benefit you. If you lead 5-1 one minute before the game ends and you put in an illegal player you lose.
    Gaining an advantage from screwing up is pretty much magic exclusive. Not sure what to do with this, maybe the HJ needs some leeway to prevent extreme cases like this.

    @Anusien: I didnt even use the word cheating.

  15. #15

    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao View Post
    @cdr: I don't know. In most classic card games, actually in any other competitive event like any sport, it is "you screw up, you're fucked". Even if it didn't benefit you. If you lead 5-1 one minute before the game ends and you put in an illegal player you lose.
    Gaining an advantage from screwing up is pretty much magic exclusive. Not sure what to do with this, maybe the HJ needs some leeway to prevent extreme cases like this.
    I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore, but I can't agree in any case; in any competitive game or sport there are common, minor errors with minor penalties. A game rule violation is very common and very minor, Magic is a very complex game and no one can play perfectly 100% of the time. The recent Pro Tour top 8 had multiple rules violations resulting in warnings that I noticed. The amount of warnings for the Pro Tour was likely in the hundreds.

    The IPG recognizes perfect play is not realistic and gives small penalties for minor infractions, upgrading those to more severe penalties if they repeat - punishing habitually sloppy players while not unfairly penalizing normal play. More severe offenses have more severe penalties.

    Would a sports team or player never benefit from making a mistake and breaking a rule, gaining information about opposing strategy or spoiling a play? I think you know that's false. Many games even have the concept of backing up and repeating a play if a rule is broken.

    In the specific case of handling this Show and Tell error, it's partly a matter of consistency - we want all game play errors to be handled the same way at all competitive events everywhere across the world. To achieve this you cannot leave things up to judge discretion, and you cannot have case-by-case handling of situations.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    I feel very much the way Tao does. As a competitive gamer, I hate losing games I am supposed to win based in the fact that my opponent made a mistake. Despite playing a lot, I've only game across such situations like 3 or 4 times though. But everytime I do, I know things should be different.

    At least one thing I can see: in case you actually pull a move similar to the one described in the opening post, even if it was unintentional, and actually decide to make use of the information gained, you are gonna regret it pretty soon afterwards. I mean, if someone did such a thing at a competitive event somewhere in our region, people are going to know and remember. Building a bad reputation will make your whole Magic experience way worse because people just won't like you.
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    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore, but I can't agree in any case; in any competitive game or sport there are common, minor errors with minor penalties. A game rule violation is very common and very minor, Magic is a very complex game and no one can play perfectly 100% of the time. The recent Pro Tour top 8 had multiple rules violations resulting in warnings that I noticed. The amount of warnings for the Pro Tour was likely in the hundreds.

    The IPG recognizes perfect play is not realistic and gives small penalties for minor infractions, upgrading those to more severe penalties if they repeat - punishing habitually sloppy players while not unfairly penalizing normal play. More severe offenses have more severe penalties.

    Would a sports team or player never benefit from making a mistake and breaking a rule, gaining information about opposing strategy or spoiling a play? I think you know that's false. Many games even have the concept of backing up and repeating a play if a rule is broken.

    In the specific case of handling this Show and Tell error, it's partly a matter of consistency - we want all game play errors to be handled the same way at all competitive events everywhere across the world. To achieve this you cannot leave things up to judge discretion, and you cannot have case-by-case handling of situations.
    If you are not sure what I am arguing about, it is the terrible outcome of this ruling. Player A would have won the game, but now Player B wins because he gained information that he shouldn't have simply by screwing up. He wouldn't have won the game if he played by the rules the first time. Again, I am not talking about any punishment, if it is an honest mistake a small warning is enough.

    Maybe the rules system underevaluates information when determining if "the course of the game was not too too much disrupted" and in this case it shows. If you talk about the game state, you mean something crystal clear to grab on. Were the top cards known and was there a shuffle afterewards? How many turns or phases have passed since the incident?

    But with information this is not possible. You obviously cannot rewind any accidental information gain. Usually this is not a big problem because information is often not very relevant which is why for example cards like Glasses of Urza's are not played. But if by a mistake a player gets to know the top card of his library and you rewind the game, then the correct judge call would be to let him Predict it away in his Upkeep. If the opponent gets to know an opponents hand card then he can Cabal Therapy or Meddling Mage it.
    These things seem like a massive disruption to the course - and outcome - of the game and yet the judge will have to pretend that there was no disruption because by the text of the rules the game state has been completely restored.

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    I feel very much the way Tao does. As a competitive gamer, I hate losing games I am supposed to win based in the fact that my opponent made a mistake. Despite playing a lot, I've only game across such situations like 3 or 4 times though. But everytime I do, I know things should be different.

    At least one thing I can see: in case you actually pull a move similar to the one described in the opening post, even if it was unintentional, and actually decide to make use of the information gained, you are gonna regret it pretty soon afterwards. I mean, if someone did such a thing at a competitive event somewhere in our region, people are going to know and remember. Building a bad reputation will make your whole Magic experience way worse because people just won't like you.
    At this point i want to mention two things.

    1. Its my responsibility to explain to the oponnents how the card I play exactly work before he makes any decision. Also reason why i dont play textless cards or japanese.

    On other hand its also my responsibility to request from a player all his knowledge about the way how the card should work. If possible i can verify it with my own knowledge. Making a mistake in such situation is almost not possible. Few times I unmasked cheaters this way (especially when they start to talk about rules/rulings which never exists). Few times i learned a lot of new things about game.

    If unsure call judge.

    2. Also its my responsibility to watch what exactly the player does. If a player intends to cheat he is doing it with some risk. If he reveals Jace as an illegal card, there is no way how to erase my memory after that. If you followed step 1. and he still reveals a planeswalker (or he silently puts it into battlefield ensuring that you are not watching him), he is trying to cheat, or does not even know game rules...

    call judge, backup game to previous state and let him play with his mistake, not yours.

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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by Offler View Post
    1. Its my responsibility to explain to the oponnents how the card I play exactly work before he makes any decision.
    It is not. When my opponent doesn't understand how a card works, it's his fault for not reading it or calling a judge. The only thing you're not allowed is to lie about what a card does. So many games are won/lost each day because people are just too lazy to read their opponent's cards. In a casual environment, I always hate it when I win with card x because my opponent didn't read it, because they will feel cheated afterwards. However, in a competitive environment, I don't feel sorry for opponents that don't even bother to read my cards.
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    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
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    Re: Show and Tell - Illegal Choice Ruling

    It's worth noting that for this specific example you (the Show and Tell player) can prevent any information gain by simply waiting for your opponent to flip his card first before flipping yours face-up.

    This, incidentally, seems to me like a reasonable convention to adopt in general, since the player who isn't running S&T in his own deck is much more likely to make a honest mistake about how the card works.
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