Best place to discuss vintage?

[socialite]

I'm not too worried about bolt/doomblade/dismember/etc you can build Y will into the pile easily enough, but yeah STP is a problem. Demon Oath suffers from the same problem of splash hate with grave hate wreaking havoc on the time walk/ key-vault.
For doomsday the piles that win without ancestral all require certain cards in hand or on the table before you go off, which I've always found to feel situational. But I can use tinker in doomsday which can make it not too terrible against fishy decks.

I'm not sure how Yawgmoth's Will prevents you from getting blown out by removal/bounce on Manic in response to x draw spell - you can setup protection piles but those are even more "situational" then Gush/Probe piles.

[Humphrey]

Vintage belongs more to Legacy than Modern

[Koby]

Virtue's Ruin / Pyroclasm / Infest ... assuming you are running drains or something. Be able to remove Stony Silence if it's a problem. If dredge decks are content to just attack with tokens without haste run 4 x Tabernacles.

Worse is powered up hate bears. Because they can actually do stuff on the play.

My current SB is thus:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Oops-Did-I-Win-When-boarding-Into-GY-Hate?
1 Pyroclasm
1 Doomblade
2 Ingot Chewer
2 REB/Pyro
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gorilla Shaman/flex slot
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction

I can deal with Stony Silence/Null Rod - Myr Battleball does that just fine and still beats face against removal/Jace. I think I'll probably add Sower of Temptation against the possible Grizzly Oath decks that might pop up.

[CranialX]

We have this site in the Philippines, where we discuss vintage and legacy.
You guys might want to check it out.

http://thesphere.freeforums.org/inde...4d29d3150c6cc0

[John Cox]

I'm not sure how Yawgmoth's Will prevents you from getting blown out by removal/bounce on Manic in response to x draw spell - you can setup protection piles but those are even more "situational" then Gush/Probe piles.

Yeah, your 100% on that. I've had no sleep in the past two days, pardon my fogginess.

[Koby]

Yeah, your 100% on that. I've had no sleep in the past two days, pardon my fogginess.

Ahh. D3 syndrome. Lack of sleep for the last 10 days.

[nedleeds]

My current SB is thus:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Oops-Did-I-Win-When-boarding-Into-GY-Hate?
1 Pyroclasm
1 Doomblade
2 Ingot Chewer
2 REB/Pyro
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gorilla Shaman/flex slot
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction

I can deal with Stony Silence/Null Rod - Myr Battleball does that just fine and still beats face against removal/Jace. I think I'll probably add Sower of Temptation against the possible Grizzly Oath decks that might pop up.

Plain old Lightning Bolt isn't bad against both Hatebears and Manshops. It kills their Lodestone or fries all hate bears ever printed. Hell ... Flame Slash ... it kills Karn and all the bears.

Who here is going to be at Gencon to battle for Vintages ?

[Koby]

Bolt is already maindeck :D

EDIT: Should provide some context I suppose...
//NAME: Slaverless Slaver
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Flusterstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Battlesphere

1 Flex

1 Library of Alexandria
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Rack And Ruin - Only good in Proxy enviroment with Shops present
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Doom Blade

Flex could be Mox Monkey, another Forbidden Alchemy, or a 3rd Misstep. I would run more Mana Drain but a) don't own another b) too many counters as is.

[Solaran_X]

Why do they still call it Slaver...when it doesn't run Slaver? Slaver decks without Slaver is like a big "juicy" burger made without meat...seems wrong.

[Koby]

Because if Slaver was good enough to run, it would be run. But it's woefully not good in Vintage right now and the rest of the deck is still good. Hence, Slaverless Slaver.

[nedleeds]

Play 1 Korean Stronghold Mana Leak. It's pretty sweet on the play, since you can play it off any mox also helps versus men.

[emidln]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

[socialite]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

Spoken like a true Combo player.

[nedleeds]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

ORLY????

[emidln]

ORLY????

I'm pretty sure I've never lost to that card in Vintage. I'm vaguely aware that it gets played, but usually by decks that have a super hard time getting it to resolve. That said, unless you sandbag it forever (by which point the combo deck has drawn a million cards and easily counters it), it's vulnerable to the same Echoing Truths and Teferi's Realms that the deck already brings in.

Doomsday is a deck that is absolutely designed to crush blue decks. It plays fewer dead cards than other blue decks thanks to GushBond and a lack of use for most artifact mana. Instead of drawing lands and off-color moxen, the deck is drawing more disruption spells. It's about equally effective as a Gush Storm deck and a Doomsday deck, and can actually kill you with two different cards in Doomsday piles. Drawing more disruption, presenting a fast clock, and largely ignoring null-rod and chalice effects form a pretty solid plan of beating fish-style decks as well.

Incidentally, the same things that make you absolutely dominant in the blue matchup work to destroy you in the workshop matchup. You not only are low on lands, but you don't have the artifact mana to help offset the spheres your opponent has packed. You typically don't even have enough artifacts to try to get a quick Tinker off (not that Tinker is even that effective against workshops these days, but it's a good measure better than just conceding). Boarding strategies in this matchup focus on giving you tools like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, more lands, and nearly full complements of cards like Hurkyls Recall, Steel Sabotage, and Teferi's Realm in an effort to reverse the maindeck's often horrendous game 1.

[nedleeds]

Sure you can bounce just about everything, that's like a religious person using the 'because God made it that way' argument. WG(b/u) hate men seems like it would have fine game against Doomsday. Everything in the deck is disruption with built in damage ... and it has it's own Spheres. Spheres with power and toughness that can't be Duressed.

[Solaran_X]

Sure you can bounce just about everything, that's like a religious person using the 'because God made it that way' argument. WG(b/u) hate men seems like it would have fine game against Doomsday. Everything in the deck is disruption with built in damage ... and it has it's own Spheres. Spheres with power and toughness that can't be Duressed.

Only one Sphere at a time like that though. But it's a damned fine Sphere.

[nedleeds]

Only one Sphere at a time like that though.

ORLY?



"Die Zeit ist noch nicht reif."

[Solaran_X]

I always forget about Glowrider. Thalia is always in front of my mind.

[nedleeds]

The rider is OK if you get Hierarch turn one, but in most non shop matches I'd want Mindcensor. But I think most hate bear decks crush shops, burn the remains, and scatter the ashes anyway so who cares.

It's Oath that's tough to beat with Bears that Hate.