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Thread: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

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    [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    For the last 7 months, Stephen Menendian has been toiling away in his Magic laboratory on a concoction that is certain to shake up Legacy. In this article, Stephen reinvents Doomsday in Legacy, just as he has in Vintage. Focused determination and meticulous refinement have produced a decklist and a deck approach that will blow your mind.
    "If your mind isn‟t blown, then you are probably a little bit confused or perhaps even skeptical. That‟s because no one in Legacy has seen a dedicated list like this before. Much like when European explorers beached on North America or when NASA astronauts landed on the moon: you are seeing something totally different from all that has come before. I will explain all in this article."

    Now this is a sentence that will go down in Legacy's history. One way or the other. I'm actually looking forward to seeing whether this deck will actually perform. It kind of reminds me of Cephalid Breakfast, as its combo is vulnerable to both creature-removal and graveyard-hate.

    I will give it a try despite how actually fragile it looks at first glance. There's just too much appeal in winning with Doomsday, no storm and a "I-win" trigger. On top of that, the way it plays out post Doomsday is one of the most elegant plays I've seen....althought Legacy has way to often proven to be a brutal format that loves to slaughter "cool" plays.

    Anyone else read the article?

    http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2787
    Last edited by Julian23; 06-02-2012 at 11:24 AM. Reason: implemented URL
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Can we get the Mod-staff to make a final decision on how much of "premium" Content (SCG, Eternal Central etc.) is ok to be revealed on here? I'd love to share at the least the decklist. What I don't want to do is discuss for merits of paying for articles time and again.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Can we get the Mod-staff to make a final decision on how much of "premium" Content (SCG, Eternal Central etc.) is ok to be revealed on here? I'd love to share at the least the decklist. What I don't want to do is discuss for merits of paying for articles time and again.
    It is NOT ok to post the decklist from an article without the author's consent. Posting just the decklist would lead to complete derailment of the discussion. Answers to questions about the decklist will have been addressed in the article it's derived from. Complaints about premium content is considered spam, and will be moderated as such.
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Just picked it up, I'm still not sold on a creature based win condition with Oh So Many Ways to remove it; hopefully Steve addresses these concerns in the article (with 33 pages I hope so).

    Edit: Ok this list looks pretty gross.
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Basically, you're trying to come out on top of this:

    Draw Step + SDTs in play + Brainstorms in hand + (live) Counterspells versus # of (live) removal spells.

    With 4 SDTs, I can see this actually happening more often than it first seems. What I'm actually more worried about is the omnipresence of Surgical Extraction + the up and coming resurgence of Counterbalance.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    With 4 SDTs, I can see this actually happening more often than it first seems. What I'm actually more worried about is the omnipresence of Surgical Extraction + the up and coming resurgence of Counterbalance.
    Agree and agree. With creature removal being so ubiquitous in the format I’m not sure one could “get there” with a list like this especially considering it’s now semi dependence on the graveyard as well. He does adress some issues I had with scenario walk throughs, even so the lack of a contingency plan (Tendrils?) worries me.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Ochoa
    Shuffles, much like commas, are useful for altering tempo to add feeling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    I just come for the pretty pictures and mono-trolls.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Just bought it, but will only manage to read it as early as tomorrow - it's time for BBQ + EDH now. ;-)

    Really looking forward to this, as my willingness to play 'fair' decks in Legacy is strongly decreasing at the moment.
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    I actually have played this deck, albiet several months ago. While I don't want to go into much detail, respecting the author's wallet, I will add a few observations from my experience.

    First, the decks that have multiple ways to remove Maniac, usually also have a good deal of pressure. Zoo doesn't currently exist, but both RUG and U/R Delver can put out a quick clock, and have multiple ways to kill Maniac. They also have loads of cheap, situational countermagic. In addition, Surgical Extraction is played in a lot of decks now, and is often included in the two aforementioned. Which not only can hit your win, but can ruin your piles.

    Running some number of Counterbalance can easily take care of this, without the need for both ways to stop their counters(except Force), or the need for multiple draws in response to their removal. You'll need to re-think your Doomsday piles to include a 1-casting cost in the correct order, but that's not very difficult. The added bonus is that if you just land a Counterbalance early, neither of those decks can actually beat it in conjunction with the tremendous amounts of deck manipulation this deck has. Obviously, it also deals with Extraction. I can't say the correct number main, or SB, as my list was a little different, and it can slow you down a bit. But it should be a consideration, owing to this deck's vulnerability to GY hate, and removal, and it wasn't mentioned. It was actually far worse then, considering Tribal decks(Merfolk) were still around.

    Another card for consideration, especially in the face of faster decks or time considerations, would be Spoils of the Vault. It clears your entire pile for one mana(and the needed life), and puts what you want directly in hand. Countermagic in most cases. But Spoils can grab Maniac itself in the face of GY hate.

    I have a few other questions and comments, but they are more directly related to inclusions, instead of exclusions, and I'll leave them to the author's discretion pending a deck release.

    Besides what seemed to me a bit of redundancy, I thought it was an excellent article, and hope that some on-board discussion comes from it.
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    What are some other good ways to protect the Laboratory Maniac?

    Also, how about adding some Miracle cards? Any room for Temporal Mastery?

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    When it comes to protecting Maniac, I strongly believe just having more ways to trigger his ability is the right way. Unlike situational cards like that Instant thats grants protection for Phyrexian mana, spells like SDT and Brainstorm synergize very well with the anything else the deck tries to do. Counterbalance looks super interesting. I wonder how many people you could blow out game1 by playing Top and CB on Turn 1 & 2, then killing them on turn3 with Doomsday, haha.

    What I'm most concerned about is graveyard hate. Maybe we can find a way to hardcast Maniac more easily post DD?
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  11. #11
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    What are some other good ways to protect the Laboratory Maniac?

    Also, how about adding some Miracle cards? Any room for Temporal Mastery?
    Steve addresses both of these issues in the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    What I'm most concerned about is graveyard hate. Maybe we can find a way to hardcast Maniac more easily post DD?
    Well the thing is, if they have a graveyard hate card, they essentially have one less card in hand that does something relevant, so theoretically you should have either more time to hard cast Maniac if need be, or you would potentially have another protection spell in your hand that you didn't have to use on an actual threat from the opponent, since they might have something like Relic of Progenitus or Surgical Extraction.
    Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    On premium content:

    I believe we should be allowed to post threads promoting it, but not be allowed to discuss. It's just too hard without quoting from an article, and when half the people commenting on it have not read it, it leads to too many "covered in the article" replys.

    On the article:

    Not the most innovative idea in the world (already working on the idea myself when i read it) but it's very well written, and I enjoy Stephen's articles because he is very through. He leaves very few idea's uncovered. I think the list he posted in there has some work still, but it very close to something that could be a great deck one day. The only thing different from my list is he has a different way of getting LM into play.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    If graveyard hate is an issue for Laboratory Maniac I think you can use other enablers or win conditions to circumvent the problem, the Emakrul and Brain Freeze plans are easily SBed and Show&Tell is kind of a counter spell for maniac with Helm of Awakening being a pretty decent accelerant for some of the possible combo chains.

    I don't think this is really that "jaw dropping" tho', as far as combo-control goes Sneak Attack just seems straight up better right now.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Altho im tempted by the fact the article is about doomsday. Still im waiting for Steve's last claims on his last article to become true... Not seeing any temporal mastery yet.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Waikiki View Post
    Altho im tempted by the fact the article is about doomsday. Still im waiting for Steve's last claims on his last article to become true... Not seeing any temporal mastery yet.
    That's mostly my thoughts. The last one was hyped and, while a good read, didn't bear fruit.
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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    I'm actually a bit interested in buying this, but 5$ is too much at this very moment. ;) Do eternal-central premium content become free after a period of time or can one buy them for cheaper later on? Also, the free excerpt kinda doesn't tell anything about the article.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Machahiko View Post
    I'm actually a bit interested in buying this, but 5$ is too much at this very moment. ;) Do eternal-central premium content become free after a period of time or can one buy them for cheaper later on? Also, the free excerpt kinda doesn't tell anything about the article.
    5 bucks is expensive for an article I agree. But 33 pages of Stephen's well written stuff brings me a longer "pleasure" that eating a 5 dollar hamburger etc. Skip going out to lunch one time and it's paid for itself. I will agree, maybe not the most acurate or best decklist, but he brings up many valid points that I believe help facilitate discussion to makeing a better deck.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Technics View Post
    5 bucks is expensive for an article I agree. But 33 pages of Stephen's well written stuff brings me a longer "pleasure" that eating a 5 dollar hamburger etc. Skip going out to lunch one time and it's paid for itself. I will agree, maybe not the most acurate or best decklist, but he brings up many valid points that I believe help facilitate discussion to makeing a better deck.
    Well, I have 20 euros now which I have to spend on living for two weeks, using one fourth of my food money would kind of make me starve. ;) I'm used to SCG Premium content and I'm kind of afraid that this would be just another SCG Premium article, selling for 5 dollars which is pretty much I think. Well, maybe I'll have to buy this once I get some more money - which I will most likely need also for obtaining the cards for the deck.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Stephen is playing on SCG Open (already 3-0) so maybe everyone will see his decklist if it is good enough for top 16.

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    Re: [Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Apparently this needs to be reiterated for the SECOND TIME in this thread: do NOT whine about premium content.

    If you have a problem with it, leave the thread. We now treat such complaints as spam, as seen through the recent update to our site rules:

    5.6: Discussion Threads on Premium Articles. Linking to premium articles hosted on other sites is acceptable, provided the article is related to Legacy and the author is willing to discuss their ideas on this site. Complaints about premium content are spam and will be moderated as such.

    Authors have every right to link their premium content as long as it's relevant to the site. Discussion is entirely open to anyone who wishes to join, and if that means purchasing it is a prerequisite to active participation then so be it. If you don't want to pay for the article, then that is your loss. There's plenty of discussion elsewhere, so don't bog this discussion down if you don't feel like paying for it.

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