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Thread: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

  1. #41

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Better in head to head matchups isn't even close to relevant. DDFT played against a competent pilot by just about any other storm deck (TES, ANT, Spiral Tide) is a blowout in the other storm deck's favor since most of them can easily answer chant effects (eot Ad Naus or Turnabout+counterspell (in case DDFT has Petal) being the two most common methods).

    Designing a deck focused on turning Doomsday into a bad Tinker removes a primary strength of the deck in that it plays very few dead cards. Drawing cards like Mental Note, Unearth, and Laboratory Maniac is usually very awkward if you aren't already winning. (I understand that you can Brainstorm them away and sometimes if you have the Doomsday as well, you don't need to stack them in your pile.) Further, you HAVE TO play a lot of protection because you're attempting a combo that is creature based and either expensive (since you have no LEDs to pay for it) or prone to graveyard removal (an effort to be cheap without sacrificing your hand to LED).

    The reason why DDFT (indeed almost all of the various Doomsday Tendrils brews) play only 6-8 protection is that they auto win a large percentage of their matches where opponents simply cannot interact. Chant and Silence are carefully selected for this metagame involving a large amount of situational countermagic. Aggro decks often only have hatebears (which are themselves easily removed) to attempt interaction. Blue decks don't play enough hard counters to beat the second, sometimes even the first chant. Mid Range decks (e.g. Nic Fit, Aggro Loam) can't actually interact with Doomsday, go from the Tendrils deck. In short, the only cards that actually matter to the DDFT player are cards that literally say "counter target spell" and permanents that are trivial to bounce with Chain of Vapor or Karakas stacked.

    Manabase stabillity generated by being two colors is questionable. The dominant build of DDFT plays 18 lands with 3 basics via 8 fetches providing access to primary colors (Wish is typically only cast once, if ever, off lands). You further have Lotus Petals to fix colors (and help vs taxing countermagic) as well as LEDs which can be used to cast your business spells (Wishes and Doomsdays). You won't often read reports about Doomsday players losing to their manabase (and I read a lot of them).

    I've played countermagic in Legacy Doomsday off and on (you can look for the pre-Mystical ban for some lists) and one thing I've noted time and again is that, short of immediately losing the game to an opponent's "kill you" spell, there is no spell worth pitching my Brainstorm to counter. There are very few that make me want to pitch my Ponder. This is because I can already play through just about anything by stacking Chain of Vapor (more recently, Karakas, or Wish->solution). I firmly believe the card makes combo decks interested in either hand size or card quality (which is almost all of them) significantly worse than a different solution. I have no problem with cards like Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Divert, Daze, Pact of Negation, or Thoughtseize, but Force of Will and Misdirection are too costly unless you're in a situation where opponents are often killing you on turn 1 (which doesn't happen here).
    BZK! - Storm Boards

    Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
    Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.

  2. #42

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by royal View Post
    I'm really interested in the deck and I'm definitely going to buy the article cause its awesome that someone writes such extensive and detailed articles about Legacy.
    But the one thing I'm a bit afraid of is the recent rise of Counterbalance decks. Hows the matchup against CB? Is it a good idea to run such a Combo deck with that many CB decks around?
    Thats why I have Devastation Tide in the sideboard. You can put it at the top of your DDay stack.

  3. #43

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    I will give it a try despite how actually fragile it looks at first glance. There's just too much appeal in winning with Doomsday, no storm and a "I-win" trigger. On top of that, the way it plays out post Doomsday is one of the most elegant plays I've seen....althought Legacy has way to often proven to be a brutal format that loves to slaughter "cool" plays.

    Anyone else read the article?

    http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2787
    This deck is ridiculously good.

    The idea for this deck started, obviously, when I created the broken Maniac Doomsday deck in Vintage. I was skeptical of how I might port my Vintage deck to Legacy, but started working hard at it last November.

    I quickly realized there were so many different ways you could build it. For a while, I ran 1 Emrakul and 1 Shelldock Isle maindeck. Then I tried a version that was a mix of Show and Tell/Doomsday. Then I put Show and Tell in the sideboard. I even tried aggro-control versions. One of the key lessons I learned is that the best ultimate strategy was to win with Maniac or not at all. Maniac was and is surprisingly resilient. As I say in the article, all you need is another draw trigger to win the game. That's why this deck makes such amazing use of Top.

    After literally months of testing and played in small, local tournaments where I knew people wouldn't leak my deck, I decided I would focus entirely on this deck and to develop it.

    But I didn't want to publish it until it was perfect or nearly so. Lots of my teammates have weighed in on my list, and endured hours and hours of testing -- often getting smashed.

    Likewise, I suffered getting smashed over and over again by various people and various archetypes until I reached a configuration that was not only consistently winning, but was truly amazing.

    The deck is truly bonkers. It can win out of nowhere and is very, very difficult to stop. My deck is also a deck that will appeal to top players because it offers so many opportunities to both tactically and strategically out play your opponents.

    I was very disappointed in my final performance in the SCG event, because this deck is utterly redunkulous and all of my losses were due to -- frankly -- the lack of tournament magic I currently play. I flubbed up one game 3 dday pile, and in another game 3 I made a huge tactical mistake before a counterwar.

    People who read this primer and practice with this deck will have an excellent chance of winning tournaments wherever they go.

  4. #44

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    How much power does this deck lose as people become more familiar with it? I feel this is a serious consideration with any combo deck, but this was especially highlighted in your feature match against maverick where he allowed you to be reactive to the swords to plowshares rather than forcing a block first. Do you feel like you received a lot of wins from your rogue status yesterday?

  5. #45

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
    How much power does this deck lose as people become more familiar with it? I feel this is a serious consideration with any combo deck, but this was especially highlighted in your feature match against maverick where he allowed you to be reactive to the swords to plowshares rather than forcing a block first. Do you feel like you received a lot of wins from your rogue status yesterday?
    My video feature match was a blast (I feel sorry for that guy :p ).

    It's absolutely true that I tricked that guy whom I knew would try to Plow my Maniac on my endstep, and then win in response.

    However, what they missed is that I actually messed up by fetching the wrong 4th land. At the end of the game I had a Spell Pierce in hand for his second plow, but I messed up the mana with my last fetch so I couldn't play it at the end there. Had I gotten an Underground Sea or an Island there, then I win on the spot by playing the cantrip that I put into the pile to win in that situation.

    Having flubbed up the mana, I knew I'd have to win by Jedi tricks/his ignorance, and it worked.

    Game 2 I just smashed him quickly.

    The reason I have utter confidence in this deck even now that people know about it is because of my testing. My opponents were very well versed in the ins and outs of my deck, and yet I was still crushing.

    The truth is that this deck just isn't that vulnerable. If you read the primer all the way through you'll pretty much understand.

    For every Plow in your opponent's hand, all you need is a Top in play. Graveyard hate is insanely easy to play around.

    The main weakness of this deck isn't creature removal or GY hate: it's damage.

  6. #46

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer


  7. #47
    They see me puntin'
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    When I was watching I felt like you would have lost against competent pilot. G1 that mindtrick wouldnt have worked and G2 he could have upkeep enlightened tutored up choke, drawn it and played it.

  8. #48

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    so what does this deck do against an ooze, an extirpate
    or even a thought scour with back up

  9. #49

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by dsck View Post
    When I was watching I felt like you would have lost against competent pilot. G1 that mindtrick wouldnt have worked and G2 he could have upkeep enlightened tutored up choke, drawn it and played it.
    Wrong on both counts:

    In game 1, I messed up.

    My hand was Spell Pierce and Force of Will when I resolved Dday. I knew his hand. He had two plows, and Teeg, and irrellevant stuff. I played Polluted Delta and fetched a second swamp when I meant to fetch an Island.

    Had I fetched Island, watch the progression. He plays Teeg leaving just Hierarch and ONE LAND untapped..

    I untap and draw Brainstorm drawing Pact and putting the Force that was in my hand (and now useless thanks to Teeg) into my library. I Brainstorm into Mental Note. I play Mental Note, binning Maniac and Force. I play Unearth. I activate top and try to win the game.

    He responds with Swords. I play Spell Pierce. He taps his last mana and plays another swords. I Pact.

    I am the one who messed up. I miscalculated my mana needs on the turn I played Doomsday and that's why I had to Jedi mind trick him into plowing my maniac to win.

    Game 2: I actually expected him to Enlighten Tutor for Cannonist or Choke and was surprised when he didn't. I initially put Force ontop of my library so I could activate Top and draw it in case he did.

    Unfortunately, the commentators didn't really understand what I was doing.

    What the commenators failed to mention was that in game 1 I ended the game with a Spell Pierce in hand and an untapped Swamp in play. When my opponent went for Plow, he couldn't defeat my Spell Pierce and my Pact.

    Choke is actually pretty weak against my deck in general. If I expect it, I just fetch out two swamps and Top all day until I Doomsday.

    What I think most people don't understand is that the Doomsday is not actually a Tinker.

    First of all, your goal is to win the same turn you cast Dday. The rule, as I talk about in the article is two mana, two draws.

    Secondly, the Doomsday is not just to tutor the combo, but to tutor for protection. The main Dday pile is Brainstorm into Pact, which you put into your hand for worthless or superflous cards in your hand.

    In other words, the Doomsday is a multi-card tutor: it finds the combo AND protection in this deck.

  10. #50

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Rekk View Post
    so what does this deck do against an ooze, an extirpate
    or even a thought scour with back up
    I talk about all those in my article. Without getting into too much detail, if your opponent has an Ooze, you Mental note into the Maniac instead of Unearth, and just need either a Ritual or two more lands to win that turn. Against Extirpate, which you see with Probe, you create a stack with 2 Brainstorms and hardcast the Maniac. If they Extirpate the Doomsday (the only card in your yard), they shuffle your library, so just put two Brainstorms or a Brainstorm and a top there so you have high odds of manipulating your library the correct way.

    I beat Tormod's Crypts, Oozes, and Leylines all the time in testing. It's really easy.

  11. #51

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    To preface, I have just read the primer but have yet to do any testing: I can see your justification for the essential cards, but I'm still kind of shocked at the final decklist: the lack of street wraith (I understand the blue count argument), maindeck bounce, business finders (intuition, burning wish ...expensive/mana base arguments) etc. I am also kind of interested at what other backup plans in the sideboard you found ineffective beside the one mentioned in the article. I feel like the deck could explore painter/stone or helm/leyline. I am also suspicious of the dark confidant plan. I have found it to be useful against counter-top decks while playing ANT, but the pitch counters and doomsdays hurt so much in this build. Furthermore it seems dangerous to extend the game if you can't rely on proactive discard forcing through multiple mini tendrils.

    Edit: Just testing, my RUG opponent thoughtscoured me post-doomsday. I ended up drawing and hardcasting maniac and cycling unearth ftw... Can't say the deck isn't fun.

    The deck needs a careful study pile, having a stranded maniac in your hand is the worst.
    Last edited by Telperion; 06-04-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  12. #52

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Read the pile in the primer of what to do with Lab Maniac in hand. Just Brainstorm in the pile. That way you don't need a Careful Study in the deck, which I considered before.

    BTW, if anyone has questions like that please tweet me, or better, tweet @ManyInsanePlays because we will be answering them on our podcast, which we will be taping tomorrow night.

  13. #53

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Just tested against RUG delver about 30 pre-board games. Most games, I get to 4 or 5 lands and resolve a doomsday facing lethal. The delver player almost always has a bolt, so if I don't have top on the table I just lose. Then there are the games where you cantrip and shuffle for 5 turns and just don't see a doomsday or can't amass 3 black mana and win on the same turn. This deck seems to have traded the explosiveness and non-interactiveness of Ad Nauseum for the ability to dodge resolved hate bears. I don't see how the raw power and counter suite of Sneak and Tell isn't just better.

  14. #54
    I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by Telperion View Post
    Just tested against RUG delver about 30 pre-board games. Most games, I get to 4 or 5 lands and resolve a doomsday facing lethal. The delver player almost always has a bolt, so if I don't have top on the table I just lose. Then there are the games where you cantrip and shuffle for 5 turns and just don't see a doomsday or can't amass 3 black mana and win on the same turn. This deck seems to have traded the explosiveness and non-interactiveness of Ad Nauseum for the ability to dodge resolved hate bears. I don't see how the raw power and counter suite of Sneak and Tell isn't just better.
    Seem's a lot like what keeps happening to me during play testing, feels like the list really wants burning wish.
    Team FireBrothers

  15. #55
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Bought the article and it is definitely worth the money.

    However I was a bit dissapointed because after seeing the deck live in SCG my first though was, that you are hurt by all forms of disruption. Not only the usual discard, countermagic and ugly permanents (not all of them of course), also creature removal and GY hate has to be taken in account.

    Now as shown the mechanic to tutor up protecion with Doomsday is very powerful and removal can be answered with more instant draw triggers. However I would be afraid of RUG and UWx sculpting their hands to something like this:

    FoW, Swords, Spell Pierce, Blue card, Surgical Extraction,...

    or RUG

    FoW, Daze, Blue Card, Red elemental blast/Lightning bolt, Stifle, Surgical Extraction

    Also Stifle can do a lot of work if you go for the "Fetch land" doomsday pile or if you want to use SD.top to draw a card.

    I was hoping for a surprise like alternative win-condition or some special plan/piles to combat aggro control decks attacking from 3-4 different angles.

    Without playing the deck I cannot see how it is better than sneak&show. Sure you have the absolute minimum of "dead cards" for a combo deck + more library manuplation avoiding "fuck-draws", but Sneak&Show can only be attacked by countermagic/discard and some deck specific/narrow choices and not the creature removal/GY hate EVERY deck is running.
    Currently playing: Elves

  16. #56
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Bought the article.

    Love the deck and I love that you created it. You probably won't remember this, but I was the death long pilot at SCG power 9 Chicago who you watched lose to changster (Before he was well known). Coincidentally, that was the tourney that you were showing off Doomsday for the first time. You made top 8 and I think someone ate a piece of power after getting DQd.

    Anyway,

    I see the focus of the deck. The only deck I have ever seen with more focus was the Vintage Tendrils list you created which had a bazilian cantrips, including a draw 2 for B1 and two life. I mirror the sentiments of the above posters on burning wish.

    Basically, I see an advantage of a more stable manabase and a smaller footprint for the combo as pluses. I see the absolute need to find a 4 of in your deck (Doomsday) as a negative.

    I assume that you tested with burning wish and various ways of generating red mana. Could you provide a little detail, in terms of game experiences, on why it is better to have the 4 doomsday configuration instead of a 3 Doomsday, 2-4 Burning wish configurations? Something like, I accept that I will lose 13% more games because I cannot find Doomsday in exchange for winning many more because wasteland is not as much of an issue and I have more answers.

    I cannot wait to test it and good luck at your next tournament.

  17. #57

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Thanks all for the continued feedback.

    I've actually done alot of testing with and against Sneak/Show, and I prefer this deck for a number of reasons.

    The main reason is that it's a one card combo. Often I will just hardcast Doomsday on turn four with something like: Island, Swamp, Sea, Sea in play. That way you can protect it with Spell Pierce/Divert and Force/Misd.

    Show and Tell requires you to assemble two cards in hand, which makes you vulnerable to discard and really needing to find both parts.

    The second reason is that Karakas is everywhere. Unless you are playing a hyper fast combo version with 4 Griselbrand an a bunch of Tendrils, I think Show and Tell is actually a weaker metagame call right now.

    The only Show and tell deck I'd play at the moment would be Hive Mind because you get to play 4 Pact of negation.

    I think some of you who have reported testing feedback may need a little more practice with the deck, and need to read some parts of the primer more carefully.

    In terms of pure goldfish speed, this deck is about a turn 3.3 or so deck. But one of the key skills I had to learn early was when to play Dday. Don't ever play Dday if you are going to pass the turn and get attacked to death. It's better to wait and Dday and win the same turn. It works because the reason you get within kill range is because you lose half your life. If you wait to Dday and win the same turn, you can suck up alot more damage pre-dday

    I'm also very confused as to how this deck could ever lose to just a Lightning Bolt. The pile with Pact protects you from Bolt, as does any Top in play. Morever, you usually have Countermagic in hand like Misd or Divert or Spell Pierce to protect the maniac.

    In general, you very rarely get resistance from resolving Dday. You should basically be saving your countermagic for the final turn of the game. I almost always end the game with countermagic in hand, as I did in the videoed feature match.

    If you have more questions like that, send them to the @Manyinsaneplays podcast on twitter or email us at somanyinsaneplayspodcast@gmail.com, and we'll answer them tonight.

  18. #58
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Hello. First of all let me thank Stephen Menendian for the great work he did developing the deck and writing the article. It is worth the money I payed. It is really well written and easy to understand. However, the article needs correction. Somewhere in the middle the author repeats again and again the same things about the 2 mana - 2 draw rule and describes the same piles several times. At seeing same things for over 3 times it starts annoying.
    Sorry, I'm a cave man and I don't know how to write in twitter
    As to the deck itself, I carefully read the primer and understood every argument. A couple of qustions: all we need is dd to go off (and enough mana), so why not play personal tutor? Yes, it does not draw a card to help with the piles, but it is easily utilized as a pitch or brainstormed away. It will help to find postboard massacre and etc, and make sb more functional. Also we usually don't cast dd before t3, so there's enough time to get what we need with personal tutor.
    Next, judging from the video, creature removal is a problem, despite what is said in the primer. There was an illustrative example when FoW was shut down with gaddock teeg. Having another disruption is a rare luck. Thalia will also cause problems. There's a lack of speed. Killing not earlier than t3 with a combo means the deck cannot be tier1. High tide has the most stable manabase, not much less counters than we have here, it's combo is not vulnarable to creature removal and still it is not enough to compete with tier1 decks. So either we need to have better luck than average or think on further upgrading either in speed, or in vulnerability. The maniac combo would be perfect to transformate into after sb, after they side out all their removal. But now I think there's still a lot of work to do.
    I can't agree that it's better than sneak'n show now. Yes, there are KoTRs and Karakas everywhere (but mostly in maverick), but creature removal is just everywhere (not mentioning gravehate. Yes, yes, we play around it, but it's very clunky, you know). There are so many angles to attack us. And opponents have a minimum of 3 turns to do it...
    Honestly, I will try the deck at the local tournaments, but I'd choose to play Sneak Attack or TES, or dredge, or DDfT at the bigger events.
    Thank you. Hope to see improvement soon.
    Nothing is true, everything is permitted...

  19. #59

    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    Quote Originally Posted by door View Post
    Hello. First of all let me thank Stephen Menendian for the great work he did developing the deck and writing the article. It is worth the money I payed. It is really well written and easy to understand.
    Thank you :)


    Next, judging from the video, creature removal is a problem, despite what is said in the primer.
    For the tenth time: I actually messed up: I had Spell Pierce in my hand, which I couldn't play because I fetched out a Swamp instead of an Island or a Sea.

    Had I fetched out hte correct land the turn before, I'm fine.

    Remember: I ONLY went off AFTER Probing his hand and seeing he had two plows. I knew I could beat both Plows, but I f****d up and fetched out the wrong land, nearly punting the game.


    There was an illustrative example when FoW was shut down with gaddock teeg.
    I think this just goes to show that people didn't really undertsand what was going on.

    I probed him and KNEW he had Teeg. You couldn't hear me speaking, but I WANTED him to play teeg so I could Spell Pierce one of the Plows.

    My plan was to Brainstorm and exchange the Force in hand for the Pact in my Library's Doomsday Pile. That's exactly what I did, except that I messed up the mana.

    I needed UUUB for Brainstorm, Note, Spell Pierce, and Unearth. Instead, by fetching the second Swamp, I only had UUBB.

    See?


    Having another disruption is a rare luck.
    Actually it's not. This deck has 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Divert and 2 misd and 4 Force for a reason: so that you end the game with double counterprotection. That's actually standard situation.

    I playtested against Maverick endless and almost always end the game with at least one counterspell in hand and the other in my Dday pile.

    Thalia will also cause problems.
    Hence, maindeck Darkblast. Which doubles as Thalia removal and dredging the Maniac.


    There's a lack of speed. Killing not earlier than t3 with a combo means the deck cannot be tier1.
    The deck can win on turn two many ways. I will address this in the free supplement.

  20. #60
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    Re: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

    In your article you state that Turn1 Doomsday "[...] will lose the game most of the time, although there are rare exceptions."

    To be fair, in game1 I'd make that kind of play against almost every aggro deck in the format. This includes Zoo, Goblins, Elves, Affinity etc. Zoo might be tricky and require a Fetchland+Non-Fetchland in your opening hand. Game2 is a completly different kind of animal since you don't know what they might be boarding though.

    Although, on second thought, doing so requires the use of at least 1 Gitaxian Probe when going for this (pass-the-turn-)pile. In addition the Turn1 Doomsday would have to be cast with a USea, since you can't crack your Fetchland on turn2 until after you've cast Mental Note. In the end, you lose 10+2+1=13 life. And you get blown out by Wasteland. Against Zoo you are going to need at least 1, very likely 2 FoW/Misdirection to protect the Maniac. Maybe even against Affinity or Goblins.

    So I can see why you hardly ever want to cast Doomsday on turn1. Learning by writing a post. Guess it won't hurt to still post my thought process.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

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