Hi stephen, just want to first say that I loved the primer and puzzles and it was well worth the money.
I've been playing legacy on and off (usually casually) since 2007, but now I want to make the next step to competitive play. I want my breakthrough to be at the scg open legacy in Atlanta, this April. I am currently trying to build a legacy deck and originally wanted to make sneaky show, but the 2000$ price tag has somewhat deterred me (only somewhat).
I love combo decks so I've narrowed it down to your doomsday or sneak and show, I was just wondering if you think that your deck is still a strong choice for today's meta. Do you still think that this deck can Top 8? Do you plan on tweaking/updating this deck anytime soon? I'll be asking more as Atlanta approaches.
My testing so far has been mediocre at best, HOWEVER, many a loss was due in part to poor DD-pile selections, which I realize I will get better with as I become more comfortable with dealing with different threats. I still question the resiliency of this deck compared to sneaky show.
Thanks :)
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I own this article and as someone who plays DDFT it was a waste of money. My post had nothing to do with the delivery vehicle, rather the quality of the content being provided which is what I assume this thread is for. I just find it hilarious that it is being bumped by new accounts that subsequently stop posting. As someone who has been involved with Vintage since the early 2000's I find most of Stevens content to be highly repetitive and hyped, this article was no different.
Edit: I suppose my use of the word buy was a poor choice. "Don't read into the hype".
I'm not necessarily buying or reading into any hype.
But sometimes I get wicked hands, ie (top, fow, ritual, bstorm, doomsday, 2 fetch lands, turn 2 doomsday with force of will back up, gg)
and I feel like theres a WHOLE lot more to this deck than meets the eye (as I discovered from reading the primer, but that is simply a primer, not a master guide on how to play every situation).
I'd really like to run it if it can be successful
Obviously you topdeck Dark Ritual or an LED so you can go Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Doomsday, (their counter), FoW, Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, SDT, Tendrils
Err wait, wrong deck. I mean you don't win. You lack the mana/free cantrip to actually play both SDT and Doomsday on turn 1. Further, if you play SDT on turn 1 (so you'd have a 2nd draw spell), you cannot win on turn 2 due to being short blue mana. You could play turn 1 SDT, turn 2 DD, turn 3 win.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Lol, you're reading into it too much, but it's funny that it does seem that every month a member with low post comes in and bumps the thread. How relevant is DDFT anyway right now in the meta? In fact the best resource for DDFT is probably on the stormboards and not the Source.
I enjoy Steve's writing and older works, but I agree that sometimes they follow the same style too closely that every article ends up feeling the same (despite his effectiveness in communicating each 'cloned' piece as being an original article). He does put a lot of work and detail and I think one has to respect that in the MTG community.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
its impossible to win turn 1 with doomsday.
its possible to win turn 2 though, or if you fear they have more countermagic after they try to disrupt your doomsday, you can choose a more counter-resistant dd-pile and wait until turn 3.
My example is still a turn 3 win.
Steve was talking about the UB Doomsday maniac deck.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I'm glad you enjoyed the Puzzle article.
Sam Krohlow played this deck this past weekend at SCG Cinci, so he may be a good resource. I also trust Emidlin's judgment.
I very much enjoy playing this deck, but it is extremely difficult to play correctly and needs hours and hours of testing against a range of decks. If you enjoy puzzles, then this is a deck for you. One piece of guidance though is to increasingly play around graveyard hate. Decks like Deathrite Shaman make it harder to rely on the standard combo kill.
You have to really become familiar with all of the basic patterns. You have to really delve into the RUG and BUG matchup and learn how to win at each life total and each situation. Ideally, you want to win every game against Delver decks at 1 life. This means you are maximizing all of your resources. I will be the first to admit that despite my experience with this deck, I am still not at the place where I feel comfortable rolling a tournament with it. I believe that to do well with this deck takes much more than testing or practice: it requires at least several tournament experiences.
What did you not like about the puzzles? Did you not find them entertaining or interesting? I'm sorry that you didn't -- I put a ridiculous amount of time into them.My post had nothing to do with the delivery vehicle, rather the quality of the content being provided which is what I assume this thread is for.
I'm surprised to hear that because we've only received positive feedback on the puzzle article so far. I had never published a puzzle article that was so faithful to the original concept of Maro's The Puzzling, and thought Dday provided a fun vehicle to do so. I'm honestly disappointed that you found the content lacking. I was told that the puzzles were fun, interesting and challenging.
A fact, which, I assure you I am not responsible for. I'm sure an admin can verify. I don't make fake accounts on message boards (or anywhere, for that matter). Nor do I encourage friends or teammates to do that. (the fact that this person is talking about SCG atl should also be a clue, since I live in Cali)Lol, you're reading into it too much, but it's funny that it does seem that every month a member with low post comes in and bumps the thread.
If your opponent forces your first turn Doomsday, you just have to play another Doomsday. I tend not to play first turn Doomsdays, however, since you have to have a very specific set of cards to win that way. This deck is designed to be more grindy.
Really? This puzzle article couldn't be more different, no? And, how do primer's on totally different decks end up feeling like the same article? I'm just trying to understand this...I enjoy Steve's writing and older works, but I agree that sometimes they follow the same style too closely that every article ends up feeling the same
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Steve,
Something that I'm a bit more interested in discussing is a hybridization between DDFT and Maniac Doomsday. Force of Will and Flusterstorm are both extremely valuable in the current metagame. That said, losing the ability to Brainstorm in a bad spot and "just win" hurts me a lot, given how powerful other decks can be (given jund a chance to do things like activate liliana more, draw abrupt decay, cascade into Hymn to Tourach). As such, I'd like to have access to the following:
Set of cantrips (17 minimum I think, although I'd be inclined towards 18-19) - SDT/Brainstorm/Ponder/Gitaxian Probe/Mental Note/Unearth/Predict
3 LED
3 Burning Wish / 3 Doomsday split
1 Lotus Petal (this is necessary for some storm kills, as well as being generally useful when trying to build some maniac piles)
4 Force of Will
The immediate Derp, Derp response is BUT LED AND FOW are a NONBO!!11
The response is correct. I submit the protection package you actually want is a mix of these cards:
Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Cabal Therapy
Flusterstorm
Thoughtseize
You do not want Spell Pierce as the things it protects you from the best are things that having LED in your deck for quick kills and Shelldock/Emrakul in your board make you mostly immune to. You want discard because it lets you legit kill with storm plan when you draw LED, and it's also fine when wanting to disrupt other combo decks, aggro, or control.
All of these cards protect you when you are killing with Lab Maniac, and a good portion of them also protect when you are killing Tendrils. All of them except Pact protect Shelldock/Emrakul. The places you are not protected
while killing with Tendrils typically do not matter. You are killing them with Tendrils because you have been better at grinding them, because they don't play blue, or because they tried to counter a setup spell (like a discard spell, a dark ritual, etc). Against aggro decks, if you use Force of Will at all, it's on their turn stopping something nasty from affecting your setup. This is the same as Flusterstorm.
To recap, the bargain we are making is this:
I want a good manabase with 4-5 basics and plenty of fetches.
I want to play a bunch of disruption that is good against other combo decks, which I consider to be the best decks in the format.
I want to "oops you're dead" to people who don't deign to play combo decks or control decks (nice forest, p.s. kill you)
I want more business when dealing with discard decks.
I'm okay with trading pure goldfish speed from a storm deck with lots of acceleration for consistency derived from cantrips. As a nice bonus, cantrip=LED when you want to kill anyway.
I'd rather attack from other angles than dilute my deck with hate. (Lab Man as an answer to Teeg, Shelldock Isle as an answer to Counterbalance)
Sometimes I'm going to lose because I have to cast Doomsday and then use LED to win this turn, and all I have is Force of Will.
Sometimes I'm going to create non-ideal piles because I'm holding Unearth, Mental Note, or Predict but want to storm.
LED is actually pretty strong with Lab Man. You have a reasonable win this turn/pass the turn pile that has no extra requirements besides 1UU. Obviously it won't work with FoW using LED, but it is a way to kill that ignores graveyard hate. For a slot, it even ignores removal (Chromatic Sphere slot is extremely debatable). It allows you to switch to a higher gear when opponents fight you over setup (which is extremely common) so that you don't end up passing the turn.
Burning Wish is interesting as it provides some ways to win that ignore stuff like Red Elemental Blast, can deal with losing the roll to a discard deck via finding Doomsday or Time Spiral (depending on the situation), and conveniently also has utility via cards like Massacre and Cabal Therapy. It acts as spare Doomsdays while also providing an efficient means of killing this turn (Tendrils of Agony). Further, the cost of playing it (2 duals isn't extremely high, and you can still do it while running 4-5 basics).
Disadvantages this approach has compared to DDFT:
- less explosive due to less acceleration and slightly worse (for killing with tendrils) cantrips
- FoW's card disadvantage is extremely relevant vs certain blue decks (compared to Duress or Silence)
- FoW provides yet another opportunity (besides cantripping, mismanaging life, storm, fetches, duals, floating mana, what's left in your deck, and Doomsday) to lose the game by playing poorly
Disadvantages this approach has compared to Maniac Doomsday:
- less raw disruption
- increased "dead" cards of LED vs grindy blue decks
- slightly worse manabase
I've been playing a list along the lines of:
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
// 17
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
// 8
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Mental Note
1 Unearth
// 18
3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Lab Maniac
// 7
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
// 10
Last 7 cards (in no particular order):
Chain of Vapor
Pact of Negation
Flusterstorm #2
Cabal Therapy
Gitaxian Probe
Predict
Cabal Ritual
The sideboard cards that I absolutely want:
Tendrils of Agony
Doomsday
Time Spiral
Cabal Therapy
Infernal Contract
Massacre
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Shelldock Isle
Karakas
Chain of Vapor (if it isn't in my maindeck)
I'd probably accept the following cards as well:
- Anything I've cut (the top7), possibly in multiples
- Pyroblast
- 4th LED (awesome vs discard)
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Emid, looking at your list one thing struck me. Since this configuration is playing maniac main as one of it's primary winning conditions doesn't this give us the possibility to include a maindeck Shelldock Isle? It doesn't actually change our way to victory because we still require Doomsday, but it does allow us to get LM into play cheaper and protect him until the very last minute. It also gives us an extra sideboard slot. Downsides are obviously that Shelldock isn't actually an Island (whose place it would probably take) which makes it mediocre to terrible in your opening hand and gives you one less basic to fetch. It's a bad natural draw aswell, but with the amount of cardselection this deck plays I don't believe this should be too much of an issue. And of coure it's a turn slower.
Regarding Unearth and Mental Note, would you be able to give some basic interactions with Unearth and Mental Note? Particularily Unearth is unclear to me, because if you would have LM in play pre-DD it's not great because it's hard to find and DD removes LM from your graveyard. Post DD it could be useful, but you still lose to Swords or other instant speed removal. What kind of interaction am I missing here? Maybe Unearth is the slot Shelldock Isle could be?
Regardless of the previous statements, the deck looks really cool and like a lot of fun. If it is in fact able to combine Tendrils with Force of Will it's a little like living the dream, and it might be the best combo deck in the format.
Last edited by MVC; 02-21-2013 at 08:32 AM.
Literally no reason to SI->Maniac, since Emrakul has no real drawback from a Doomsday pile, cannot be countered (which is why you're okay passing the turn to begin with), and paying U+tapping SI plus having another cantrip to dig 3 seems really bad. Consider this:
Shelldock Isle
Brainstorm
Lab Man
blank
blank
You play DD, pass, draw SI, play it exiling Lab Man and stacking Brainstorm on top. 3 Cards left in library. Next turn, draw Brainstorm, cast it. You're vulnerable to creature removal, you've passed the turn twice, and they can actually still counter your Lab Man.
Now, having Lab Man does make SI better, by virtue of Lab Man being easier to cast, more reliable, and faster to kill as a backup plan than a 2nd Doomsday, but not to the point that you'd actually want the Shelldock Isle maindeck.
Unearth and Mental Note are just efficient at letting you construct low-cost Lab Man piles that don't discard your hand. This is the contribution Steve introduced in this article, and it's something that I at least overlooked completely when Lab Man came out. It is in some ways a throw back to the 2004/2005 Doomsday lists that attempted to kill with Sutured Ghoul, just much more efficient. It gives you another option in your toolbox:Regarding Unearth and Mental Note, would you be able to give some basic interactions with Unearth and Mental Note? Particularily Unearth is unclear to me, because if you would have LM in play pre-DD it's not great because it's hard to find and DD removes LM from your graveyard. Post DD it could be useful, but you still lose to Swords or other instant speed removal. What kind of interaction am I missing here? Maybe Unearth is the slot Shelldock Isle could be?
Ways you can efficiently kill someone with Doomsday:
Tendrils (assisted by LED, can't use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Tendrils (assisted by Dark Ritual, can use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Tendrils (assisted by Time Spiral, probably vulnerable to everything ever played minus discard spells)
Lab Maniac (assisted by LED, can't use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Lab Maniac (assisted by Mental Note/Unearth, can use FoW, loses to yard hate that you can't counter)
Lab Maniac (assisted by Dark Ritual, can use FoW, ignores yard hate, slightly more mana intensive (read slower))
Emrakul (assisted by Shelldock Isle, can use FoW, ignores graveyard hate, loses to Needle and Wasteland (can be combined with Lab Man to not autolose to Wasteland/SI))
If you want to open up a little, you still have reasonable piles with Helm of Awakening/SDTs/storm kill for 1-2 slots
In the concept, you also have the following ways to win via storming naturally:
Opponent's spells (counterspsells/cantrips)
Chain of Vapor
Sensei's Divining Top
Time Spiral
Infernal Contract
As well as a potential alternate win condition in ETW.
Now, the ways of storming naturally are not likely to be too reliable with only 8 accel. This is something I still need to work out, because I feel like the ideal number of acceleration is around 11 for the explosiveness that I would like. That said, those options are there.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
@emidln
I've been doing some work with a list similar to the one you posted, though not going as far create a hybridization of DDFT and Stephen's DD lists. After reading through the DDFT discussions, I've been tinkering with a maindeck Lion's Eye Diamond and Idea's Unbound in the maindeck as a means of combatting Deathrite Shaman. I'm still figuring out the piles and the requirements, but I'll post it when I the information operationalized into a cogent system.
Regarding the list you posted. How often do you find yourself casting Doomsday and passing the turn? Do you see that as a tactical weakness of Doomsday decks or given the environment, is that an acceptable line of play?
The next acceleration spell would be Cabal Ritual. The most limiting factor in the deck is achieving BBB when you want to win the game. Extra ways of doing this are good. Cabal Ritual would get the initial nod over Rain of Filth by virtue of being more useful if you want to pass the turn.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I want some number of Divert / Misdirection in the board... probably 1/1.
In the main I think I'd rather have the PoN > Fstorm (although that's just from looking) and almost certainly want the 4th probe, probably cutting the 10th protection spell for it. (it's also possible this is a spot for predict.)
I think CoV should definitely sit on the board in this kind of build. I also really like the idea of Pyroblast in some number as well in the board.
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