Adapting to Griselbrand-Show and Tell Decks

[xfxf]

Hi everyone,

There has already been some discussion about recent success of these cards but with a focus of ban worthiness. Instead, I'd like to discuss the the possible tools and decks which are best suited against defeating these decks and how we adapt.

Currently the decks aren't dominating the Top 8s but with their power level I'm not sure what's stopping them. Is it just their consistency problem (having one piece and not the other)? Because when you take individual match-ups into consideration they seem to have the upper hand against most of the meta.

Since the most obvious way to deal with a combo deck is a blue control deck I have been playtesting UW Miracle control and BUG control against a stock Sneak & Show list but both control decks are having a hard time dealing with the defense of Sneak & Show. Neither of these decks have enough disruption (or they don't have it early enough) to stop the fatties coming down. Also when the fatty is down both decks have limited ways to deal with it in an effetive way. Sorcery speed Innocent Blood and very topdeck dependent Terminus isn't very reliable to deal with a hasty Emrakul or a Show and Telled Grieselbrand.

When blue control decks fail against combo, I turned to RUG. I would say RUG has an even matchup with these decks and probably has the best chance against them in the format. So we have one contender.

Moving away from blue decks I turn to non-blue fair decks. Obviously Maverick is not the best choice to combat these decks. I don't know much about decks like Nic Fit, maybe someone can share their experiences if their non-blue decks have favorable Sneak & Show match-ups. At yesterday's SCG MUD decimated a Hypergenesis deck but I'm not sure if the same mechanics would apply against Sneak Attack...

The third option is other combo decks. Successful combo deck of the past couple months, Spiral Tide, has an unfavourable match-up since Sneak & Show has as much counters with a faster kill. I'm not sure how Storm and Dredge matchups play out, so again I am looking for some feedback from the community.

All in all, we usually have heated debates about bans and adapting to metagames etc. so let's get some discussion going if current decks can fight the Grieselbrand menace or if under the radar decks can rise up to the challange. Is it possible to adapt and what's the best tools this format can offer for this.

Discuss.

[Esper3k]

As someone who is currently playing Sneaky Show, I fear Maverick decks more than I fear RUG Tempo myself.

Against RUG Tempo, you just have to force through a Show & Tell or Sneak Attack and you've pretty much won the game.

Maverick pretty much shuts off your Show & Tell answer due to having 4x Knight + Karakas. Thalia also slows you down and keeps you from going off as quickly. Even tapping out for a Sneak Attack can be dangerous because of Pridemages.

This isn't even considering cards dedicated to fight Sneaky Show decks.

Just my $0.02.

[frogczar]

I'd like to see more threads like this before I see threads demanding bans.

However, I feel Show and Tell has really gone on too long without a ban. The card is broken. Too broken, even for Legacy.

That being said, since there are people who somehow don't agree, what can we do? This thread.

Personally I think it's time more people abused Humility. Outside of counter magic, it's one of the ways to deal with ridiculous combo/creatures.

I'm thinking counter-thopter-humility control. I'll need to look around at some lists, I'm sure there out there.

[Einherjer]

I left SneakAttack a few days ago, because I was unsure about Show and Tell getting banned or not. Ofc I didn't move to a deck that cannot deal with SneakAttack if it shouldnt get banned, and I believe it's not banworthy yet. Like you, I tried UW Miracle and BUG Control but wasn't too satisfied either. But there are 3 Decks that have a slightly positiv - positiv MU against SneakShow.

1) BUG TeamAmerica:
Resource denial, Discard, Countermagic, fast creatures. Its a hard MU for SneakShow but it's a rarely played deck.
2) LED-Dredge:
This deck is simply stronger and only loses to the Spell Pierce, Force, Force hand of SneakAttack. If they do not counter that much Dredge pretty much wins G1 because a dropped Grisel/Emra means NOTHING. Postboard is strongly dependent on the personal skill of the Dredge-player.
3) Last but not least the deck I turned to, when leaving SneakAttack. Its an Esper-Terminator.dec. I am not completly sure if this is the optimal way, as a UWB EnlightenedCounterThopter is still in testing and looks promising aswell. But my UWB Terminator is featuring Thoughtseizes and Lilianas in addition to the normal UW Terminator. Postboard, I bring, in addition to Needle/Canonist some Extirpates and one or 2 more pieces of Discard.

Even though I am not saying that this deck RULE SneakAttack they have a pretty good chance of winning vs them, while still having a fair range of MUs around the meta.

I was hating the Maverick-MU aswell when I played SneakAttack. It's tough and not a bad choice - but the upcoming Terminator-decks rule Maverick kind of hard... The RUG vs SneakAttack is highly skilldependent (of the RUG player obv. )

Greetings

[xfxf]

If Maverick is that strong against Sneak&Show why isn't it putting up much better results? Since it has a favourable match-up against RUG as well it would have been in much better position but both the past few SCGs and BOM didn't see Maverick perform well. I think Maverick is very prone to random blow outs such as Show and Tell -> Griselbrand-> x cards, trump your Karakas with the Sneak Attack and Emrakul's annihilator trigger drawn of the demon.

BUG control seem strong on paper but it lacks a density of answers. I don't know how to explain it really but you have to play the deck a bit to see that Turn 1 Kozilek while also holding a Pierce isn't that backbreaking when you don't put pressure on the board. The deck certainly have the tools but somehow feels weak assembling all the right answers at the right moment.

I'm still hopefull about a well tuned UW-Miracle deck though. Humility is certainly good albeit slow. As BUG control, UW has the tools but needs more consistency to find those tools as needed. A Teminus without Brainstorm, a Humility a turn too late, Snapcaster + Swords when facing an Emrakul... These scenarios are very common and I feel I'd rather play RUG (which is what I'm doing at the moment ).

[Tacosnape]

Let's talk about the Hypergenesis deck. Two days ago I posted on Facebook that I'd bet anyone who wanted to that Hypergenesis would top 8. People asked me why, and I explained how stupid Shardless Agent was for two reasons:

1. Running 3 Colors in the deck instead of a bad manabase. UGR with 8 Spirit Guides was now possible.
2. Ethersworn Canonist no longer stops the combo.

Lo and behold, my old friend Todd Anderson does just that, even improving on my hypothetical notepad list by running Maelstrom Wanderer just for haste/instablicking. (I still think he should have run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, though)

This deck will by no means replace Sneak Attack/Show, because it's easier to hate out the non Show and Tell half (Chalice of the Void for 0 does it, and every deck can run that), and the deck has less ways to actually find the Show and Tell. But now there's a fourth Show and Tell deck rocking the format.

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

[I am the brainwasher]

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

The main problem of the card is that it is non-interactive by itself. No Hatebear or cards that were printed to outweigh combo-decks somehow are effective at beating Show and Tell - based Combo.
Thalia might be vexing by itself here and there but the only "real" answer to beat those decks reliable is Disruption either in the form of discard-effects or counter-magic, while the 1st option is not as effective as the latter.

Till the card gets banned, I'd recommend playing a Tropical Island in Maverick for sideboard Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce and add up the number of Karakas in all decks playing those (which also improves other MU's since a lot of decks run the card as a 1-off currently).
When Hypergenesis turns out to be a real contender, I would add Dueling Grounds to some sideboards, which is pretty much game in combination with Karakas and is pretty effective against Dredge and any other deck when you combine it with Maze of Ith.
Since Angel of Despair and stuff could be added to those, I am unsure how effective the card is in that particular MU, but that is undecided yet.
The problem I see is that if there is a variety of decks abusing S&T, it is quite impossible to have all the answers in your board to adapt to any of those, since they all need different ways to deal with, which then somewhat requires you to run counter-magic, which is the general answer to all sort of different approaches of combo.
Leyline of Sanctity is a real card and is propably the easiest include to avoid sacc. effects and discard, which limits solutions in addition.
IMHO, the best way to deal with the majority of the format beeing counter-magic, is alarming.
In pure numbers, the number of Aggro-decks (and a variety within those) has decreased dramatically over the last year and I can see a real mess happening if this goes on for quite some time. I only hope that a misinterpretation from the DCI won't lead to bans that will lead to the format becoming a Vintage-esque ghost town.

[xfxf]

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

We are trying to deal with what Show and Tell drops actually, not Show and Tell itself. Prior to Griselbrand ,Show and Tell would drop Emrakul, Progenitus, Hive Mind etc. The meta can deal with those without changing and shifting too much. The draw 7-14 is what crushes the other decks now. Emrakul becomes more effective because of that draw 7. Because of that additional card advantage it can come into play protected and hasty with increased consistency. If it was Progenitus being dropped I would still rock a Batterskull so I could race the damn Hydra. But please, let's not turn this thread into "which one is more ban worthy".

[wizard_of_gore]

tacosnape, what are you thoughts about hypergenesis as viable and playable deck if show and tell gets axe ?

[wcm8]

Show and Tell has to be fought on the stack. Discard is simply not good enough alone, as these decks run a high density of filter/Brainstorm/Intuition. I've tested BUG and RUG, and hybridizing the two into a Grixis list gives you the strongest anti-combo deck available. However, in doing so you become much, much weaker to everything else in the field.

Right now, RUG has the best shot at beating these decks while not being a complete dog to the rest of the tier 1/2, but it still needs to go slightly overboard on the SB to more consistently beat them. Some combination of REB and Flusterstorm will help alongside maindeck Spell Pierce's, and I've also seen lists including Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation as a hedge against a resolved Show and Tell. If Griselbrand/Emrakul land, the game is over. They are also often SBing into Blood Moon, which is another auto-win card which needs to be fought on the stack.

I suppose Meddling Mage could make a come-back in Bant/UW/Esper lists, but that isn't really that great since they can still land the other piece of the combo.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I think dealing with Show & Tell itself isn't really that difficult. Red decks all have access to REB/Pyroblast. Black decks have access to discard (make them discard the S&T or discard the creature). Blue decks have countermagic and Vendilion Cliques (clique you in response to Show & Tell!).

Honestly, GW decks shouldn't have that many answers to combo, but as pointed out above, Maverick actually has a much better game than GW deck should honestly expect to have.

To me, the issue is not necessarily dealing with Show & Tell itself, but that cards that deal with Show & Tell don't deal with what it drops if it happens to resolve.

So you pretty much just pick your poison - try and deal with Show & Tell or try and deal with what it drops.

Honestly, that's just the nature of combo though. Storm combo is usually like that - you typically have to deal with one key spell. On the spectrum of combo decks, I see Show & Tell just as slower but more resilient than other combo like Storm based decks.

[Tacosnape]

I think WCM8's got my point. It's extremely difficult to fight what Show and Tell's going to drop, because there's so many different things it CAN drop. And the best way to fight Show and Tell is indeed while it's on the stack. If you prepare to stop the targets, you can get lucky and face the right targets all day, but you won't always.

Meddling Mage is also a pretty effective answer, but it suffers the same problem that all 2-drop hatebears do in the format - If you go second, sometimes you can't get them down fast enough. I'd pack Cavern/Tropical/Mage in Maverick right now without hesitation, though.

At some point, though, you have to take note that most of the best answers to the card itself are Blue. So Show and Tell's blue, and decks that beat it are blue. And people wonder why Brainstorm and Force of Will are all over top 8's.

As for Hypergenesis's viability without Show and Tell? Sketchy. You have to have the second plan, I think, or Hypergenesis just turns into Dredge/Affinity and is only as good as the lack of preparation for it. Chalice for 0 shuts off Hypergenesis. It's a card that any deck can play and without Show and Tell becomes extremely difficult for Hypergenesis to stop. So at that point, without Show and Tell, you have to decide what route to go. Do you try to play Bloodbraid Elf? Eureka? Sneak Attack?

The deck's still a deck without Show and Tell, but not nearly as good.

[Worldslayer]

We are trying to deal with what Show and Tell drops actually, not Show and Tell itself.

That's part of your problem right there, I think. If you stop SnT, it doesn't matter what they drop. It doesn't even matter what SnT variant they're on, as outside of Hypergenesis they all operate on the same premise of "SnT -> Win counter war -> Cheat". Typically, anytime you want to beat an unfair linear deck like combo, cheap disruption and a quick clock get it done. Modern RUG lists can probably adapt fairly easily anytime they want to, though BUG has always been my standby for beating up broken. Typically something like 5 discard (4 seize and an inquisition seem fine in the current legacy meta), your own forces and something like 3-6 additional counters (pierces in a wide open meta, daze in a more tempocentric one, flusterstorm in a show and tell / storm heavy field). Few removal spells, snapcaster, goyf, lilliana, draw spells. You could probably even play delvers. Team America is in the right colors but trying to play the wrong game anymore, so applying a leaner meaner curve and actually adapting concepts to what's going on would probably yield much better results than still leaning on something like Tombstalker, for example.

Alternatively, if you're in a smaller field and it's just absolutely cluttered with show and tell decks, something like Aeon Bridge would be an excellent way to steal their thunder. This sort of reeks of "if you can't beat them, join them" but the reality is much closer to "if you're too lazy to beat them, then the hell with it".

[Sloshthedark]

Pithing needle is underplayed, anything adapted to Ensnaring Bridges

so Thresh is best deck against Sneak attack? sad .. ok, theoretically Thresh can deal with any deck if you hit right cards.. but still the archetype seems overrated

[Esper3k]

I, for one, am glad to see more decks rising to the top instead of the pure Canadian / Maverick grind...

[KevinTrudeau]

Ethersworn Canonist no longer stops the combo.

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven-eight free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

[Esper3k]

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

Canonist is less effective because they can use the new 2/2 cascade guy to get around it.

However, it's still really good against them because of all the other times they don't have that guy (as well as what you pointed out that they can't protect it with countermagic even if they use the cascade guy to cast Hypergenesis under Canonist).

[Koby]

I would start any deck in this metagame with 4 Spell Pierce. That stops the multitude of Show & Tell, Cascade, and Sneak Attack strategies. I would also play a deck with access to Karakas, and likely Force of Will as well.

This leaves relatively few options remaining:

• UW mid-range/control - akin to Terminator and/or ETutor control
• Bant/Blue Maverick - lots of strengths
• Esper control - losing favor due to slowness of Lingering Souls and SFM, but hand disruption helps out

This is all from the perspective of beating the spells that cheat fatties into play. There is also the option of stopping combat altogether:

• Peacekeeper
• Humility
• Ensnaring Bridge
• Elephant Grass !!!
• Propaganda / Ghostly Prison

These are vulnerable to permanent hate/bounce, but if you're playing with protection that shouldn't be too bad.

[Koby]

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven-eight free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

Mana Maze shuts off Hypergenesis from the new builds - both Cascaders are .

[KevinTrudeau]

Canonist is less effective because they can use the new 2/2 cascade guy to get around it.

However, it's still really good against them because of all the other times they don't have that guy (as well as what you pointed out that they can't protect it with countermagic even if they use the cascade guy to cast Hypergenesis under Canonist).

Haha, didn't realize the new guy (Shardless Agent) was an artifact creature. I should really learn to think before posting.