M13 Spoiler Discussion

[lordofthepit]

Useful and very undercosted, and it might see play, but I don't think it will see a whole lot, much like Scute Mob or Dragonmaster Outcast. Having a consistently strong creature in the early game is much better than having an occasionally overpowered one in the mid-to-late game.

One advantage of Phantasm is that it immediately comes into play as a 5/5 flyer if the conditions are met, rather than waiting for the upkeep. That, of course, and pitching to FOW.

[Tacosnape]

FWIW, I do think this is a decent little Commander guy. Either he'll be Skullclamp/Force fodder, or he'll be a big fat dude for one blue. Not earthshattering, but pretty clutch for the cost.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Oh no, he's turning blue! Now he's broken and overpowered and warping the format! Ban Brainstorm!

It's cool, in a minute he'll go from blue to green, bringing his power level back down to normal (probably because oxygen depletion is like a -4/-4 counter.)

EDIT: That said, mediocre creature is still only mediocre, even if he flagrantly disregards what the color pie is supposed to do. Compare him to Scute Mob, in that once you've parsed out what he actually does, there are only about 1 or 2 imaginable decks that would really want to maindeck him. And he's not going to elevate Mill above the scrubby tier it's currently on.

[Hanni]

I think this thing has some minor potential in some sort of Team America/Junk hybrid. It's obviously better than Scute Mob, since hitting 5 lands is alot harder than the opponent having 10 cards in the yard, and he has flying.

Something along the lines of heavy early game disruption, where you could drop this guy down at some point during that as a 1/1 flier that pings for a few like a pre-Thresh Goose would, and then grow to 5/5 a few turns later. Filling an opponent's graveyard isn't so bad if you're hitting them with Wasteland, discard, maybe countering a few of their spells, maybe killing a couple of their creatures, etc.

Obviously this thing in no way compares to Delver, but I think it is somewhat comparable to Tombstalker. It has the potential to come online roughly around the time as Tombstalker would (situation depending), doesn't have the same disynergy with Goose/Goyf, and is castable in multiples. The fact that it's easier on the manabase at vs and the fact that it pitches to FoW is gravy. It can also come down pre-"thresh" in certain situations, where a Tombstalker would be dead in hand.

Interesting card. It's not overpowered or anything that should be hyped up, but I think it has more potential than everyone is giving it credit for.

[DragoFireheart]

He'll find a home in some Tempo deck like RuG Tempo or Team America. Pretty decent, but not overpowered.

[xfxf]

Just like Temporal Mastery, I think this card has enough promise of great power levels to trigger curiosity and awe, but is conditional enough to be on the brink of competitive playable. Cards like Vexing Devil, Temporal Mastery, Jace's Phantasm make me think that Wizards is mastering the art of marketable card design and can now think beyond cool Angels and Vampires to increase sales.

Edit: In terms having a marketable appeal, I still miss generic fantasy creatures like Orcs, Minotaurs, Dwarves and Elven Riders. I guess WoW killed the flavor of those for the new generation, but that's another rant.

[Tammit67]

He'll find a home in some Tempo deck like RuG Tempo or Team America. Pretty decent, but not overpowered.

I can see the day where this guy brings tombstalker back into the spotlight.

Valuetown.

Will not see play.

[Vacrix]

Granted, this card is a bit harder to flip than, say Delver, but combine this with Vision Charm and whatever else your opponent might put into their yard like Fetches, lands that you Waste, creatures that you kill and spells that you counter. Team America does all of that stuff rather nicely. The advantage of playing this guy too is that, as hi-val was saying, you don't have to tap out to play your finisher. That gives you more mana to protect him from removal, play additional disruption, or play a cantrip.

Also, I really don't think this guy can be compared to Delver. Delver is an aggressive, early threat and flips into a 3/2 flyer on the 2nd or (if you miss a flip) 3rd turn. This guy comes down in the mid/late game as a huge threat where Delver might not be. Occasionally you might see this guy flip early against a deck that has to fetch 2 or 3 times, lose a creature/spell or two to your disruption and such followed by a well placed Vision Charm. Otherwise, its U for a 5/5 that flips way better than Tombstalker with Confidant.

I think in UB/x Team America esque variants are going to love this guy. Its not something you can easily port to UR(G) variants but I think thats a good thing because UB/x Tempo hasn't been played that much lately. Keep in mind. Its not like a Team America player is going to drop their win condition (Tombstalker/Goyf/Dreadnought) within the first few turns of the game. This card isn't a Delver. I'd say its more of a Tombstalker variant than anything else and its going to get dropped on like turn 5/6 after you have played some disruption, killed some of your opponent's creatures, countered some spells, perhaps wasted some creatures, Deed the board?????, etc. Also, when you drop this guy you don't have to spend 1G like Goyf, XBB like Tombstalker, or spend 2 cards like Dreadnought. He just comes down for a mere U with the condition that your opponent has lost a lot of cards to your disruption. It will be active faster against decks that play fetches, cantrips, ie. the Tempo mirror.

Based on the discussion though, I think people have mistaken this guy for Delver 2.0 when he is really Tombstalker 2.0.


EDIT:
Also... this:

Obviously this thing in no way compares to Delver, but I think it is somewhat comparable to Tombstalker. It has the potential to come online roughly around the time as Tombstalker would (situation depending), doesn't have the same disynergy with Goose/Goyf, and is castable in multiples. The fact that it's easier on the manabase at vs and the fact that it pitches to FoW is gravy. It can also come down pre-"thresh" in certain situations, where a Tombstalker would be dead in hand.

Interesting card. It's not overpowered or anything that should be hyped up, but I think it has more potential than everyone is giving it credit for.

The fact that its easier on the mana base, pitches to FoW, and works well with Goose/Goyf are things I've overlooked. It seriously has enormous potential in the BUG Tempo archetype.

[xfxf]

After reading your take Vacrix I think it makes sense and I might have misevaluated the card. It will require some testing to see if U vs BB is enough to compensate the 2 extra card requirement (and in the opponents graveyard) and the fact that the opponent can shrink it in contrast to Tombstalker. But even with that I'm still behind my previous statement of "on the brink of competitive playable"

Edit: On a personal note, this card makes me think why the hell Wizards would come up with a clumsy mechanic as Flipping and wouldn't just write "At the beginning of your upkeep look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way Delver of Secrets becomes a 3/2 Insectile Abbration creature with Flying" Just like that you know.

[Vacrix]

Because most cards that flip actually turn into something that would require too much text for just one card. So they just said 'hey what if we use the back?'

[JeroenC]

Edit: On a personal note, this card makes me think why the hell Wizards would come up with a clumsy mechanic as Flipping and wouldn't just write "At the beginning of your upkeep look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way Delver of Secrets becomes a 3/2 Insectile Abbration creature with Flying" Just like that you know.

Cause they came up with Werewolves first (who need the flipping mechanic) and Delver is a horror trope that makes good and pretty clean use of flipping. In other sets, he'd probably get a +1/+1 counter and flying (and the ability wouldn't trigger again if he already had counters).

[Hof]

Because most cards that flip actually turn into something that would require too much text for just one card. So they just said 'hey what if we use the back?'

And nobody answered...

I saw some SCG videos, and they actually play with those checklists? Eew.


I think Jace's Phantasm could be quite strong because it swings for 1 with evasion even when the condition isn't met, which is relevant in a tempo deck. If it has to attack two or three times for 1 and only gets in once for 5 after that, it is still an average of 2+ damage per turn.
Consider this card in the Ugr Threshold mirror. Wow.
Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

[Infinitium]

Which gives dredge what, 3 turns to dump their library and kill you? I'd rather have crypt.

Conditional beater is too conditional, nothing to see here.

[Hof]

Depending on the dice roll and whether or not the Dredge player uses Coliseum or City for mana, he gets 2 or 3 turns to kill you in that scenario, yes. If he doesn't kill you, he is dead. This is blindingly fast for a non-combo deck like Ugr Thresh. Obviously this is an optimized draw, but my point is that a fast clock matters when you are playing tempo decks against combo decks. And we could still have Crypt. I am not talking about replacing Crypt with this thing. But the Phantasm has wider uses, like when your opponent plays with another conditional creature, I don't know, say, Nimble Mongoose, would you rather have Crypt or a 5/5 flyer for one blue?

It seems bad against Grim Lavamancer, Tombstalker, and Relic of Progenitus, though.

[Vacrix]

Sometimes a well placed Wasteland or a countered draw spell can slow Dredge down significantly and force them to slow roll. If you can pull that off as the BUG Tempo player, than an early Jace's Phantasm is a pretty savage clock. It might not be the greatest way to beat Dredge but if you already play them maindeck because your build supports them, than I can see it helping the Dredge match.

[Tammit67]

It seems bad against Grim Lavamancer, Tombstalker, and Relic of Progenitus, though.

Also ooze, snapcaster, loam. You know, cards that already see play

[Aggro_zombies]

Sometimes a well placed Wasteland or a countered draw spell can slow Dredge down significantly and force them to slow roll. If you can pull that off as the BUG Tempo player, than an early Jace's Phantasm is a pretty savage clock. It might not be the greatest way to beat Dredge but if you already play them maindeck because your build supports them, than I can see it helping the Dredge match.

Unless you have literally no good sideboard cards for Dredge, I'd be siding out my maindeck Phantasms for graveyard hate under the assumption that a Crypt or Relic is going to do me more good than a 5/5 that will end the game two turns after the Dredge player does.

[Hof]

Also ooze, snapcaster, loam. You know, cards that already see play

Ahh true, Ooze is amazing.
But even if Ooze is being played, Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Snapcaster, etc. are still being played. Phantasm is just another card that feeds on graveyards.

[Michael Keller]

Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

If someone dropped this against me turn one, two or three I'd fist-pump mightily inside.

Just sayin', is all.

[Darkenslight]

Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

No, I'd take the much slower clock of:

T1: Delver
T2: flip Delver, attack, Phantasm and Cage
T3: swing, stuff, win.