[Free Podcast] SMIP # 15: The Doomsday Scenarios & Legacy Doomsday Q&A

[Smmenen]

For all the folks who submitted questions via twitter or email or on these boards, last week we podcasted to answer your questions and concerns about my Legacy Doomsday deck.

Enjoy!

http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=25162

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian, with special guest Theo Theo Limber (opoulos), discuss Doomsday. From Steve’s Legacy Primer to numerous Legacy and Vintage scenarios, we deconstruct Doomsday from top to bottom. Also: Planechase playables, Bazaar of Moxen results and upcoming Ohio Vintage tournaments.

00:02:00: Announcements
00:05:00: Bazaar of Moxen Top 8
00:20:30: Planechase
00:38:45: Doomsday Primer
01:25:40: Doomsday Scenarios – Legacy
0225: Doomsday Scenarios – Vintage
02:42:24: Bazaar of Moxen Final Game Scenario

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

Your Host(s): Kevin Cron , Steve Menendian
Show’s Email: SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

[jam3sbob]

Thumbs up on the podcast, always a fan.

I lol at the voice over on the power/toughness of baleful strix

[xfxf]

For the scenario you were trying to solve against Burn I came up with this. You crack the fetch first and go down to 8 life. If your opponent responds with double burn you counter 1 of them with Divert (tapping Island) and take in the other one. You'll go down to 4-5 but still have enough life for Doomsday.

If they don't fire off any burn it's fine as well. You cast Doomsday off of Ritual Ritual (tapping the Swamp) and go down to 4 life with an untapped Island (assuming they still haven't fired). With 2 B floating you cast Top and now have 2 untapped U. Seas and 1 B floating. You make the following pile with Doomsday:

Mental Note
Maniac
Pact
Blank
Blank

You activate the Top to replace it with Mental Note. With one of your U. Seas you cast Mental Note, binning Top and Maniac to draw Pact. With 1 B floating you cast Unearth on Maniac.
With the second U. Sea you cast the Brainstorm (which was in your had) to draw 3 cards but you only have 2 Blanks left in the library so you win.

[rxavage]

The podcast has sold me on the deck. I will be purchasing the article. Thanks.

[nedleeds]

Where do you get the spooky background music?

[Smmenen]

That's the Emperor's Theme Song from Return of the Jedi.

You can ask @kevincron on twitter for more...

We talked about playing Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, which I have decided is the theme music for casting Doomsday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

[Smmenen]

Thumbs up on the podcast, always a fan.

I lol at the voice over on the power/toughness of baleful strix

I was dying at that as well.

there are some pretty funny parts of this podcast, even though that's not what we go for.

[Fossil4182]

With regard to scenario two, is there a way to win if the Maverick player casts Thalia on turn two followed by a turn three Wasteland? If they're also holding two Swords to Plowshare, I don't know if its possible to win. I gamed it out below based on the pile the podcast concluded would be most successful.

Turn Two
In Hand (Underground Sea, Underground Sea, Massacre, Unearth, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual Doomsday
In Play: Island, Swamp

Play Dark Ritual > Doomsday

[Doomsday pile]

(Top)
Force
Mental Note
Probe
Maniac
Pact of Negation
(Bottom)

Pass the turn

...

Opponent plays a land, casts Thalia, and passes the turn.

In play: Savannah, Land (tapped), Thalia, Noble Hierarch (tapped)

Turn Three:

Draw Force of Will (Hand: Force of Will, Underground Sea, Underground Sea, Brainstorm, Unearth, Massacre).

Play Underground Sea (In play: Underground Sea, Island, Swamp)

Pass the turn

[…]

Opponent plays Wasteland, activates it targeting your Underground Sea

Attacks with Thalia for three

Passes the turn (In Play: Thalia, Noble Hierarch, Land, Savannah)


Turn Four:

Draw Mental Note (In Hand: Force of Will, Sea, Underground Sea, Brainstorm, Unearth, Massacre, Mental Note)

Play Underground Sea (Island, Swamp, Underground Sea in Play)

Cast Massacre (tapping the Island to pay for the Thalia tax).

Cast Mental Note (putting Maniac and Probe into the graveyard and drawing Pact of Negation).

Cast Unearth returning Maniac

Ideally, you just pass the turn and win on your turn five draw step.

Is there a way to win if they have a second Swords to Plowshare? I don't know if there is because you're tapped out meaning you can't cast Brainstorm in response to the first Swords to Plowshare so you have to cast Force of Will pitching Brainstorm. You cast Pact to counter the second Swords to Plowshare, but you loose on your Upkeep... The only way I see out of this is if the opponent waits to cast the Swords to Plowshare until the end of your Upkeep on turn five (which is a terrible play mistake).

I've tried casting Brainstorm in response to the Wasteland, but you loose because you can't draw for turn for and cast Mental Note on turn four. I think its a no win scenario, but I wanted to get your opinion on it.

[Smmenen]

With regard to scenario two, is there a way to win if the Maverick player casts Thalia on turn two followed by a turn three Wasteland? If they're also holding two Swords to Plowshare, I don't know if its possible to win. .

Yeah, I don't think so either. But it is definitely worth thinking through, like you have. Kudos.

[ramanujan]

The deck you created is great. I have made some changes to it which I find beneficial.

1. I added a personal tutor in for one of the misdirection slots. I understand that according to you I don’t need it, but I will be including it. I can tutor for Doomsday, probe, or unearth. I have found it to be worth the slot.

2. I added a street wraith in place of one of the probes. The big reason is that it is instant speed draw for zero. I am sure that you can see why this is good. I know that I am giving up a view on my opponent’s hand, but I have already won a few games on the back of having street wraith instead of probe in my stacks.

3. I swapped two lotus petals for an underground sea and an island. There are a few reasons for this. Firstly, I now have 8 ways to create the needed 3 black to cast doomsday on turn 2 and a few more odd ways to cast doomsday turn one. This is not a big bonus but it does come up often enough. The real benefit is that it allows some pretty great stacks.

4. I also added a second pact of negation instead of the other misdirection and upped the spell pierce to 4 and reduced the divert count to 1. This is a personal preference so know that I am not saying that this counter configuration is better.

The decklist you provided is excellent. I believe mine is a different take on the deck. I have added a bit of speed in exchange for a smaller counter suite. I thought I might also mention a modified stack which I often use on the turn 2 doomsday pass situation.

The stack depends on what you have in hand at the time. In order to win turn 3 you need to have:
1 blue mana available
1 blue or black mana available
1 useless card in hand
1 of the following:
A non-fetch land which allows you to produce UUB
A brainstorm
A gitaxian probe
A lotus petal
Unearth (with access to UU)

Without going into all of the detail, you can set up the pile similar to the following.
Brainstorm
Mental Note
Street Wraith
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth

Take note that this pile requires 3 mana and usually involves passing the turn. The example pile above assumes you have the mana available via petal or land. If you don’t have the mana, just substitute a petal for the card you have in hand. If you have several of the cards in hand already, substitute one or more pacts for additional protection. As an aside, note that it is no problem if you have maniac in hand in these piles, just use the brainstorm to hide the useless card and the Maniac and get another pact for your troubles.

This pile structure, when taken in conjunction with the lotus petals, also provides an excellent framework for turn one doomsday pass piles. I know that the intention of the deck is to provide a double protected kill, but I was amazed at how much quicker the deck gets with the lotus petals. Sometimes you need speed more than a counter suite. My initial testing left me feeling like the deck was a bit slow for my tastes.

I have no intention of actually writing them all out but here is the run down of what you need to win turn two after doomsday turn 1. Notice that this list of options is quite extensive.

In order to go off turn 2 after casting doomsday turn 1, you will need 2 of the following cards (one of each) in hand plus a useless card assuming you have 1 land in play. (Two lotus petals in hand also works, but it is a bit of a corner case) (Just so I mention it, make sure that you don’t have two swamps as your lands, you can figure out why)
Brainstorm
Probe
Street Wraith
Land
Lotus Petal

So, I will pick a random set of two cards from the following list of 5, Probe and Brainstorm.

So, say I cast doomsday turn 1 using swamp, Dark Ritual, Doomsday.
I have Brainstorm, Probe, and a couple useless cards in hand. Fortunately, one of my useless cards is Maniac (Unlikely, but fun for an example). I will make the stack

TOP
1. Lotus Petal
2. Mental Note
3. Pact of Negation
4. Lotus Petal
5. Unearth

So, when it becomes my turn again:

I draw and play petal
Cast brainstorm and put maniac and useless card on top, keeping the Mental Note, Pact of Negation, and Petal in hand.
Play second petal and cast Mental Note, bin the maniac and the useless card, drawing me the Unearth.
Tap the swamp for unearth and cast Probe for the win, with counter backup due to the Maniac being in hand on turn one. (Which is strength using this stack, not a weakness)

I also thought that i'd mention that a top in play is about the same as a probe or wraith in hand.

Well, that is it for now. Good luck with the deck everyone and thanks again for writing the great article.

[Tammit67]

The podcast was exceptional. Thanks a lot!

[P.S.]

As in-depth as the $5 article was, on top of the podcast & Stephen having a good showing at an SCG Open, I'm surprised more people aren't willing to give Doomsday, specifically Lab Man, a shot. It's a great deck & very rewarding to play. And unlike the learning curve that most Doomsday decks present, this deck is feasible to pilot throughout the course of the day without your head exploding from having to think so much.

I guess it's just easier for people to copy a RUG Delver or Maverick list, sleeve it up & go play mirror matches all day. Maybe that isn't fair because Legacy is so diverse right now but there aren't a whole lot of reasons, in my estimation, to not, at the very least, give this deck a try for awhile. Is it just not diverse enough for people's liking?

[xfxf]

When I don't feel like driving my version of RUG I just play High Tide, it's a better deck imo with more capabilities.

[GoblinSettler]

As in-depth as the $5 article was, on top of the podcast & Stephen having a good showing at an SCG Open, I'm surprised more people aren't willing to give Doomsday, specifically Lab Man, a shot. It's a great deck & very rewarding to play. And unlike the learning curve that most Doomsday decks present, this deck is feasible to pilot throughout the course of the day without your head exploding from having to think so much.

I guess it's just easier for people to copy a RUG Delver or Maverick list, sleeve it up & go play mirror matches all day. Maybe that isn't fair because Legacy is so diverse right now but there aren't a whole lot of reasons, in my estimation, to not, at the very least, give this deck a try for awhile. Is it just not diverse enough for people's liking?

I think learning curve is different than stamina required to play the deck through a long tournament. There are fewer piles to learn than DDFT, but I would not call Maniac Doomsday easy to play.

After goldfishing for a couple weeks, I played a hand full of games against live opponents. I definitely need more practice.

Making the piles is not too hard. Here is the part that I find tough: surviving and sculpting your hand.

You need to dig for a Ritual and Doomsday. Make three land drops or make two and get ready to pass the turn. Ideally you still have a counter in hand to resolve your combo. With an extra draw trigger, you can put a protection spell in your pile.

To go off on the same turn you need to see:
3 lands (UBB available), Ritual, Doomsday, Force, extra blue spell, draw, draw.
The way I count that, it's nine cards. To go off turn three on the play, you need to have the perfect hand and draws. Or get there from two cantrips. If you burn a card somewhere else, countering a hate bear, getting hit by duress, you've waiting on another draw.

Or you can pass the turn which reduces the requirements.
2 lands (UB available), Ritual, Doomsday, Force, extra blue spell, draw.

There are some variations on this. You can replace Force and an extra blue spell with another land drop and something like Spell Pierce. Maybe you have seen your opponents hand so that you know it is safe to pass the turn or cast Doomsday without protection.

You do have a boat load of cantrips. So this is not impossible. But you rarely just derp into the win. Instead you spend several turns in disciplined deck manipulation until you are ready to do something. That's plenty of time to see your life total drop below the threshold required to survive Doomsday.

Facing discard is also a problem. Now you are spending Brainstorm to protect your hand instead of dig. I think "Turn one. Land, Ritual, Doomsday." looks a lot better in this case.

It is a cool deck. Laboratory Maniac is cool. Doomsday is very cool. But it takes some time to be able to pilot well. Then there's the other barrier, cost. A solid UB mana base and a playset of Force don't come cheap these days.

[GoblinSettler]

Not sure of the etiquette on a double post. But I wanted a post break between replying to "Why doesn't the deck see more play" and discussing changes to the list.

Above, ramanujan suggests adding Lotus Petal to the deck. You get a boost of acceleration. Petal can be helpful in some piles. At first blush, I like this change, but you are trading consistency for speed.

I want to test a red splash to Burning Wish for Doomsday. A more out there idea: With all of the deck maniupation, can this profitably run Reforge the Soul?

In discussion over on Salvation, someone mentions Predict. This seems like an interesting upgrade. Now you can draw a protection spell from your stack for 1U and Predict, instead of UU, Brainstorm, and Mental Note.

[xfxf]

I goldfished the deck a little myself and than tested it and came to similar conclusions. The turn 2 combo isn't realistic in the expected scenarios. When it happens and you don't face disruption cool. It's just a very exceptional situation though. The deck realistically gold fishes around Turn 4 with protection. Turn 3 is hard, turn 3 with protection is harder. That's why I'd prefer High Tide as a solid turn 4 combo deck with a better defense in the early first 3 turns. The one in a million turn 2 win and one in a 50-60 turn 3 wins isn't enough to put this deck in a better position imo. On the other hand there is OmniTell...

[slave]

Cheers - nice to see another Lab Maniac deck.

I have a Laboratory Maniac deck myself - runs okay.
But it's mono blue.
It runs Maniac, Paradigm Shift, Tormod's Crypt and lots of instant & cycling cantrip with about 12 counter, including Disrupt, Remand and some of the usual suspects.

Doomsday build is superior to Paradigm Shift.
Fully.
I'm not arguing that at all. But after seeing how it could regularly combo off on turn 3 and 4, I'm not sure Doomsday is lightyears ahead when you really have to have a perfect hand in order to go off. Considering a simple mono-blue approach that cost a pittance to put together, can also combo's off (possibly) on turn 3 - although more reliably on turn 4 or 5, without the "lose half your life" bit, and also without the massive manabase $$ cost.
I think both strategies are very risky.....

[Smmenen]

I wholeheartedly endorse a single Predict, which gives this deck not only another great pile, but also source of early or midgame card advantage. It's the next great iteration.

I would also consider running some number of Flusterstorms over the Spell Pierces.

With the SB plan I outlined in the article, I believe this deck can beat anything. The spellskite/Bob plans are amazing.

This deck is only better in the current metagame since Show and Tell is more popular than ever, and this deck -- if built and played well -- should beat that because of the virtual card advantage of having fewer dead cards.