I've been in Hiatus so I haven't really have any improvements in the deck. But here are my questions:
How do your matchup look against:
Canadian Thresh/blue-based Tempo decks - most of these decks run minimal lands. The reason why I added Trinisphere was to force them to play lands. While they have at least three lands, I can be comfortable with my Moxen and Sol Lands.
Combo that uses minimal lands - same principle as above but much faster. I feel Trinisphere helps there too.
Here are some of the things that I ran in my list that you didn't have and my justifications:
Trinisphere - it's justified above.
Chrome Mox - essentially Mox 5-8. I was running three but I was still unsure about the number. I figured that the card disadvantage can be fixed by the tax/rack engine.
Wasteland - I felt that it compliments Trinisphere in my list, as well as it helps get rid of utility lands and lands that produces more than one mana. Although with your list, I can see that it shouldn't be a problem.
Stoneforge Mystic - usually hard to beat (along with Batterskull) behind an active Trinisphere.
Goblin Charbelcher - late game all in insta-win. Having piloted Quinn (Scrying Sheets-based mono-white control), I've always wanted an insta-win situation (in Quinn's case: Painter Servant + Grindstone). In Parfait's case, in the late game, Belcher seems to do it. All in one card!
Other suggestions:
Solitary Confinement - with all that cards (and "free draw"), it seems good right?
Porphyry Nodes - Anti creature that deals with shroud (and Show and Telled creatures).
As for debates between slots:
Path to Exile vs. Swords to Plowshares - I find that while PtE helps Land Tax triggers, it also helps the opponent recover faster as they're getting a free land drop. I am still a firm believer of StP.
City of Traitors vs. Crystal Veins - while Crystal Veins can be sacrificed at will, City of Traitors stays on the field longer when you need to power 3-4cc bombs in the early game. Still undecided with this.
Anyways, it's good to hear from the original Parfait creator. I remember reading that article when I just got into Magic. Parfait wad actually one of my first casual decks before I played competitively. Hopefully more good things are in store for the deck.
As for the Revival, it's quite the tech.
Hope to hear more from you!
Nameless One:
I haven't got the chance to test my new version vs blue-based tempo a lot. I think that you simply have to play around Spell Pierce. As for fast combo, it is indeed a bad matchup pre-sideboard. I guess resolving Rule of Law is your best hope. I'll try to test more extensively those matchups and I'll let you know.
I am not a fan of Chrome Mox, as I rely on the redundancy of my cards to win. In my build, I play lots of non-colored cards as well. I'd rather play a Mox Opal, but even then, it seems too risky. Borderposts seem the appropriate compromise so far.
Wasteland and Trinisphere: I decided not to go the mana-denial way with this version. I deal with problematic lands with Pithing Needle.
Stoneforge Mystic: I'd rather not have a creature as I'm playing Humility.
Goblin Charbelcher: It's a good idea. I usually prefer to play Charbelcher when I only have basics and mountains in my deck. Should I cut one of my favorite cards of the moment, Crystal Vein, to accommodate a Belcher? This is something I have to think about.
I had Confinement in my maindeck in the first version I put together. I finally thought it was too conditionnal.
I don't like the Nodes at all. You can't play it unless there is a creature in play and you have to take a hit before it activates.
There are many ways to build a Parfait today: mana-denial through Trinisphere, Scepter lock control, combo kill with Belcher... Good luck with your own version!
I don't think you have to cut Veins for Belcher. I ran Belcher with Veins and Wasteland and it was fine. Worst case scenario with Belcher is that it can reset Scroll Rack or be used as a weenie removal.
As for other matchups, what matchups have you tested the deck with? I feel that in order for the deck to be 'established', it needs to beat at least two of the following: Combo, Blue-based Tempo, Blue-based Control and Aggro (we'll put Vial based and Hate-bear based together)
I also wanna add Mana Tithe
Hi!
I used to play Parfait in Vintage for 5years and now I'm very happy to play it in Legacy.
This is my actual decklist (still under developement):
11x Plains
2x Wasteland
3x Mox Diamond
2x Chrome Mox (before there was only one plus 4th Mox Diamod, but 3rd or 4th Mox diamond in hand was not very well without active Land Tax)
4x City of Traitors (I have tested Crystal Vein too, but this is better card for Scepter lock or for eventually Trinispehre or any first turn 3 mana silver bullets...)
1x Kor Heaven (really not sure, new added, not yet tested, originally it was one more Wasteland as I don't want to cut another Plains, maybe Maze of Ith can be better, but I don't have free slot
4x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Enlightened Tutor (maybe I will cut one for one more Noxious Revival)
3x Swords to Plowshares (before 2/2 with PtE, still not sure, but I have feeling that I will come back to pure StP in deck)
1x Path to Exile
4x Orim's Chant (before 3x + 3x Mana Tithe)
2x Noxious Revival (maybe I will add one more, excellent card, thanks a lot Raphaël!)
1x Wrath of God (I will test with Terminus as Noxious Revival in main)
1x Moat
1x Humility
2x Ghostly Prison (added 2nd now, not yet tested)
1x Zuran Orb
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Story Circle (sometimes great, but sometimes too slow...)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Pithing Needle (added now, not yet tested)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Solitary Confinement (added new, but still not sure... I have to test)
1x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Luminarch Ascension
SIDEBOARD:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Rule of Law
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Defense Grid
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
1x Terminus
I still have big problems with UR tempo and Counter-Top
Countespells and direct damage was Nightmare for this deck... I have added now Solitay Confinement, 2nd Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle and 1x Kor Heaven, so I hope it will improve the situation, let's see...
I used to play 3x Mana Tithe which was in opening hand very good, but later it is almost dead card so I've decided to change it for 1x Orim's chant, 1x Ghostly Prison, 1x Pithing Needle. Let's see
Aggro decks (goblin/elves) are ok, as they dont have too much answer for my silver bullets
Against Combo (storm/reanimator), Grave decks and rest of the field I have to test more...
Would it be an idea to run 1 or 2 Riftstone Portals instead of Wildfield Borderpost to fix colors?
See, the Tempo discussion comes up again, this is why I think Trinisphere is going to be good in the deck. You can capitalize with Trinisphere with early mana artifact plays and Sol lands. It also helps against land-light decks. It also protects your key spells against cheap permission spells control has.
Against CounterTop (which happens to run lots of lands), I think surviving a Jace is the way to go. The deck can deal with it's aggro-based attack (Entreat the Angels). Pithing Needle (or Revoker) seems good against Jace or any Planeswalker/activated abilities in general.
I've been toying between Mana Tithe and Trinisphere and Trinisphere seems the better all around piece. It brings the game into mid-late where this deck thrives.
I really hope you guys look into this. I was going to participate to MTGS's Legacy tournament with Parfait but I could never have time with a PC.
It won't because the purpose of the Borderpost is to create a mana source outside of lands and to reduce your land count, something that Portal doesn't do. It doesn't necessarily be the Wildfield one, it could be Fieldmist Borderpost and it will do the same job.
I've been thinking about Borderpost and seems great especially if you're splashing (along with Mox Diamond). Although it's going to be limited to green and blue splashes.
What would these two colors offer to better the deck?
Shit I wanted to make that Primer!
I'm also testing things with this...
I reach some conclusions,
The deck has so many useless cards vs the different archetypes
you need red for - Burning Wish and Blood Moon both key spells.
Burning Wish targets:
- Planar Birth
- Replenish
- Entreat
- Decree of justice
- Wrath
- terminus
- Idilic Tutor
And so many great cards, that I cannot not playing Bruniung.
I DONT play swords main and I've won to merfolks and canadian.
the idea is as we have so many useless cards, swords is one of them. the only real creature we really would like to retire is d.confidant, for the rest - humility - oblivion . moat and circle of pretection can handle this, burning is also great.
I've seen the lists in this primer and I see them as nonsense lists,
if you want you can set my list as the Primer List, other wise I prefer to keep in secret that list as that will be THE LIST
Also no runnig nedle maindeck and grafdiggers is nonsense.
Question how to win to merfolks?
Reponse: Moat + Pithing nelde to Coralheim
Yes, Story Circle is mana intensive, but the colour variability is great. It will almost never lock opponent by itself, against aggresive aggro decks (especially goblins/elfes) it is too slow and needs support of Ghostly Prison. Prison itself won't lock opponent too, this two cards have good synergy. Also it helps sometimes Moat (without Humility) with Flying creatures. For me this is good support card.
Here’s where I’m at so far on this list. I am a big fan of the Scepter/Chant lockout.
This deck doesn’t need 3-4 win conditions in addition to scepter chant. I’m down to 1 belcher. I’ve also gone with 2x Keg and 2x Relic of Progenitus maindeck for basic extra hate to cover any bases I haven’t with the rest.
Leyline of Sanctity stops Discard, Burn, Combo, Intuition, Jace, Liliana’s Ultimate, and more.
With Leylines protecting you from spells, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary protecting you from creatures, and Relic controlling graveyards, you should generally be able to establish control.
Couscous Parfait - Maindeck - 60
Mana Sources (22)
18x Plains
4x Mox Diamond
Instants (14)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Argivian Find
Artifacts (11)
2x Zuran Orb
2x Isochron Scepter
3x Scroll Rack
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Powder Keg
1x Goblin Charbelcher
Enchantments (13)
4x Land Tax
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Humility
1x Moat
Sideboard - 15
Artifacts (7)
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Powder Keg
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Cursed Totem
1x Ethersworn Canonist
Enchantments (3)
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
Just For Fun (5)
1x Circle of Protection: Black
1x Circle of Protection: Blue
1x Circle of Protection: Green
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Circle of Protection: White
Realistically, if you don’t want to screw around, go with something along the lines of
1x Nevermore
1x Pithing Needle
1x Story Circle
1x Rule of Law
1x Porphyry Nodes
Last edited by yespuhyren; 08-28-2012 at 04:46 PM.
@TaxMan:
My list is likely the nearest to yours,
I'm now starting to add more and more City of traitors, I think what I need is to land a S.Bullet soon. (by moment 1 city 1 serras santum)
Please Try Burning Wish it is gold. and let me know, this makes you use: P. birth, terminus, entreat, replenish, and sooo many strong cards that by other hand you'll need to use 1 copy main.
Lastly I've included 1 scepter, sometimes is key,
I'm starlting to think in taking out Argivian, 3 at first , 2 ritgh now, and there is a burning target that by 2 takes both enchantment and artifact,
I've been testing 4 abeyance 3 orims configuration, abeyance is gold in this deck I can say even much better that chant, chant is an eveil when you need 1 turn to recover because of kicker, but abeyance is always good.
I really find red as the second color:
it bringsyou:
- Pryroblast from side
- burning wish
- Blood Moon
A note: I started to design the deck with NO swords and still I didn't included them even in side.
@Pelikanudo:
I don't know how it is in your area, but our metagame is very fast (pure aggro, storm, 1land belcher, ur delver). I don't think Burning wish will help me in early phase when I need it most, as it seems very slow to me. Most of the named cards I took out from main as they were not usefull/slow cards for me anymore.
I had 2x Abeyance originally in my deck, than switched for Mana Tithe. I have to think about this three (orim's chant, abeyance, mana tithe) how to manage...
This weekend I was in tournament in Vienna. Metagame fast, but not so much pure aggro: 2 storm, 2 charbelcher, 1 ur delver, 1 parfait, 1 goblins, 1 MUD, 1 maverick, 1 esper stoneblade, 1 junk, 1 rock.
I won against rock and maverick, but lost against storm and charbelcher. This decks are very good against me because of speed, discard and surgical extractions (mostly on orim's chant). Powder keg seems to be quite good as it is dangerous against lot of decks. maybe new main card?
I would like to test grindstone/servant combo as kill condition. And maybe I will try trinisphere/smokestack too.
Just thinking, maybe -4x Swords +4x terminus can be good, but this must be tested first. Terminus has very good synergy with Noxious Revival
Regarding Blood Moon - this is great at the beginning of the game, but for 3 mana and you have to splash with red color, so maybe for 3 mana would be better Trinisphere as (nameless one) proposed...
Playing main 4 abeyances 3 orims 4 E.Tutor 1 Aura of Silence 1 Nevermore I don't expect to loose to storm Combo unless its a 1st turn win,
I'm initially a TES, DDFT Player!.
Burning does not mean its a slow card, I even think it's backwards, B.Wish is even played in 2 of the fastest (TES and Charbelcher) decks in the format, so that is not an argument to not to play it, in a deck where you have mox diamond, and city of traitors I really don't thnk its an issue as I said Burning into terminus has server to win several games.
I conceive Parfait as the opossite to combo in the way to face the victory, by the rest the focus is the same. I mean:
- Parfait is supposed to find the keys to make the opponent loose as faster as possible.
- Combo find the keys to win as faster as possible.
E.Tutor and B.Wish are likely the bests card tutors in the format.
A point:
Trinisphere do not stop 43 Lands, Blood Moon does stop 43 Lands.
These are 2 very different cards and they are not comparable.
to Blood Moon, yes I agree, I didn't want to campare those two cards. I just wanted to say that I'm not sure which of these cards is more powerfull general in metagame...
In Vintage I used to play with red splash...
could you please paste your decklist here?
Now you see why I run 4x Maindeck Leyline of Sanctity instead of Abeyance or Mana Tithe. I also run 2x Powder Keg in the main, and it is ridiculous. Turn 0 Leyline means storm/belcher are on the ETW plan, and having 4x E-tutor, 2x Powder Keg, and 1x Island Sanctuary in addition to scepter chants you’re pretty set in those matches.
I like Powder Keg way better than Ratchet Bomb for the simple reason Keg @1 doesn’t hit my land taxes.
Leyline is also pretty sweet against Rock. Maverick theoretically should be one of the best matchups for this deck, and post-board you also have 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Cursed Totem, 1x Porphyry Nodes, 1x Humility and 1x Story Circle
Powder Keg is a good way to deal with Batterskull/Lingering souls tokens, Nimble Mongeese, Insectile Abberations go immediately, and recurs with Argivian Find. Combined with 4x Leyline you should be able to lock up most avenues of losing the game. I wish I could play Trading Post to recur it, but I don’t know if it is good enough. That being said, 4 life a turn or recurring kegs is not all that bad in the late game...
Trading post is absolutely awesome, but also costs 4 mana which is too bad. It’s fighting for a spot in the deck against the 4th Leyline or the Relic of Progenitus for a spot in the maindeck, with Story Circle as the likely candidate to get the boot. At the moment the Leyline is sleeved in the deck, but I’m indecisive to the point where the Trading Post IS actually sleeved up and in my deck box with my deck as the 61st card.
Finally, while I can’t play this card because I’m sticking to my all plains guns, I always loved this combo back in old 1.5 classic when I messed around with Land Tax. It’s terrible, but if anyone can make use of it I’d be highly amused :D
@K-Run
@TaxMan
you should start testing from at least:
4 Tax
4 E.Tutor
4 B.Wish
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
IMHO Must Silver Bullets:
Nedle, grafdiggers, Humilty, Moat, Story Circle, B.Moon, Aura of Silence , Never More
I absolutly read those posts, from 1999 Vintage decks.
I can recognize some additions or inclusions, I discovered the land that makes the same as Soldevi Digger, and lot of other things.
Well some points:
- I'd like to add likely more city or ghost quarter or the other land like s.digger, however I will then need anything to recoup lands. thats a parity concept.
- The scepter really shines, sometimes is key vs some decks in first games,
- Nevermore is a card that can be in side, however is the seal card vs storm and never is useless, also in conjunction with Aura and chant effects is key. But I've found that scepter can replace that role, for me is a puzzle card is this deck, K- Run must agree with me if he didn't know that card.
- I'd like to add senseis.
- I agree with Terminus is really good in here, I need to add some. with abeyance on opponents turn shines, if in yours! Maybe instead of argivian? And let Side things like that?
Personal Opinion:
The idea of the deck is to look for cards that seal the game, thats what I look for,
playing creatures has nonsense to me in this archetype.
// Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
16 [7E] Plains (4)
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [EX] City of Traitors
// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
1 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
2 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [ISD] Nevermore
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [9E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [US] Planar Birth
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 [U] Armageddon
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [SHM] Mine Excavation
Well not much time
While I could be wrong, if going the Burning Wish route playing a Pyroclasm in the board seems strong. Too bad boiling seas costs 4 mana or it would be a great target too.
I was in local tournament this week (2 ur delver, 2 goblin, 2 combo elves, 2storm, belcher, reanimator, stoneblade and 2 other decks) again with good result. I have tested Trinisphere. As first turn drop very good, but after first turn it was slowed-down more me than my opponents . I wanted to play my cheap spells but I could max 1spell per turn usually due to the City of Traitors. City is simply not Mishra's Workshop...
After several tournaments I identified Isochron Scepter as a key card. Scepter/chant lock is simply great.
I have tested powder keg in main too, very strong card, I will keep it in main.
I have also tested Noxious Revival over Argivian Find. Very good synergy with Terminus. Possibility of return my instant spells or lands is great, as I can easy return chant/stp/tutor back on top when scepter arrives and nothing to imprint in my hand or return terminus to clean the board. Have someone tested this card too?
I have removed last Goblin Charbelcher, Aura of Silence and one Path to Exile for 2x Terminus and 1x Solitary Confinement is back.
I would like to do some experiments now. I will try to test combo Grindstone/Servant and switch Wastelands for Mishra's Factory.
And I'm thinking about Suppression Field (it affect my deck less than Trinisphere and can slow down lots of opponents (fetch lands, creatures, sensei, planeswalkers, ...)
Its good to hear someone have good results with Parfait. Keep it up!
As for Trinisphere, I think it's only good after the first couple of turns when you've got Land Tax already. It would really be helpful if you have you've already got the Mox online.
I wouldn't play Trinisphere if I didn't have board presence.
As for Powder Keg, how can I forget that that card exist? Damn you Ratchet Bomb!
As for Scepter, I was quick to dismiss it (thinking that it's mana intensive). I will look into it again.
As for Solitary Confinement, it used to be great back when I ran Parfait with Kitchen Magic. But not triggering Miracle for Terminus does suck sometimes. Let us know how that goes.
As for Suppression Field, it shuts down Scroll Rack and Scepter. Although you can use Teferi's Puzzle Box as an alternative to Scroll Rack to get value of off Suppresion Field.
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