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Thread: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

  1. #81
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Some cards with good sinergy with Landtax:

    Zuran Orb
    Path to Exile
    Ivory Tower
    Daze
    Mox Diamond
    Aether Vial
    Tithe
    Liliana of the Veil
    Smallpox
    Mana Tithe
    Foil
    Brainstorm
    Mind Swords
    Devastating Dreams
    Firestorm
    scroll rack
    Empyrial Armor
    Wild Mongrel

    I think the best route would be the white/black mana denial plan with smallpox and mana tithe, given that LandTax wants the opponent to play as light on lands as possible.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  2. #82
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Land Tax
    Scroll Rack
    Life From the Loam
    Seismic Assault

    For the low low cost of only 3 cards in play and 1 in hand/graveyard and 3 mana a turn you too can search your library for three lands in your upkeep, discard them to deal 6 damage, return them to your hand, then draw 3 cards and put 3 lands back on top of your library.

  3. #83
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by hi-val View Post
    There exists a big gulf between unplayable jank and too-good broken stuff. I'd like to remind people that Land Tax fits in there. It's a solid role-player. The Tax-Rack engine is a strong one, but it obviously requires work to get going. Tax is probably not as good on its own. It's probably not as good when you're just using it to feed things like Seismic Assault. I do think the card shows a lot of promise with Trade Routes, since you can play lands as normal and then, when you need to, turn on the Tax and start cycling lands away.

    It's like when Facebook's IPO was announced and everyone wanted to be smarter than the market and say "lol too ezxpunsive, would never buy." And sure, it was overpriced at $40/share, but it's worth a non-zero number, and that number is probably in the mid-$20s at the very least. Land Tax will be played; it probably won't be great, but like Replenish and Time Spiral, it'll be a valuable card in the decks that can use it.
    A lot of cards are either amazing or trash. Combo cards certainly tend to fit into this category, but some utility ones do as well. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Lightning Rift are for instance examples of cards that are amazing in and of themselves... if the deck they have to be in can carry some of the rest of the weight. But they can't so they aren't. Lim Dul's Vault is another card that's been one of the most powerful pieces of certain decks, when a combo deck that exists can really utilize it; but most of Legacy's history it's been completely unplayed.

    Another card similar to Land Tax in this regard is Recurring Nightmare. In formats that are slow enough for Recurring Nightmare to be relevant, it is devastatingly poweful. It's usually a windmill first pick in Cube and banned in both the American and French EDH lists. And yet in Legacy, it sees no play at all. Certainly no decks with it place. Why? Because the format is fundamentally too fast. It would be helpful perhaps to take this principle to its furthest point and imagine that the following card exists;

    Memento Mori
    Sorcery
    1B
    Play Memento Mori only on your tenth turn or later.
    Target player loses the game.

    Now, that card would be outrageously powerful in certain formats; specifically, formats where getting to the tenth turn is a reasonable proposition.

    In Legacy, however, that card would quite certainly see little to no play because it does nothing during the turns you're likely to see; and even the kill conditions of very controlling decks like BUG or Miracle come online earlier than that.

    Another example; Krosan Tusker. Now, it's no secret to some that I love me some piggy. But even I have had to admit that it's just not a good Legacy card. But why? It's been a staple in a lot of formats. It was a must-of in 5-color, routinely shows up in EDH and while not a first pick, almost always makes and keeps a slot in Cube lists. But those are formats where you the incentive to go three or four colors are stronger than the manabases often allow, and the importance of getting to four mana is greater. In Legacy, the card was barely playable in the days when Landstill and Rifter and Wombat were running around and Isamaru was a reasonable aggro creature. It's certainly not making the cut now.

    For the same reasons, Land Tax, while being a card that has the potential to be powerful, is trash in Legacy. The curves are too low, the format too fast, and the engine too clunky. I'm grateful for the apparently recent invention of the word "durdly" because that's exactly what LandTax-ScrollRack is. It's durdly. Even if you get it going, and that's far from a guarantee, you're expending a lot of energy just to draw some extra cards at the exact same time you're losing the game.

    Land Tax also faces the threat of obsolescence from Life from the Loam, which does much of what Land Tax does but better.
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  4. #84
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    You can now play land tax at GP Atlanta. They moved the effective date to the 29th!

  5. #85
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    In my first testings, i found Land Tax very useful. Needs some tweaks in deckbuiling ofc, but it can increase the basic land count without drawback and thats a good thing.
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  6. #86
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    I'm confused as to how these conditional 2 card combos like TaxRack (which net you nothing more than card advantage) are supposedly superior to an unconditional 2 card "I win the game" combo, ala Entomb/Exhume Griselbrand.
    Legacy: Miracles

  7. #87

    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    because its new and people want to brew about it. All I know is that Im happy to see people brewing and bringing barely tested decks expecting to win. Just less bad match ups for me.

  8. #88
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by csy View Post
    because its new and people want to brew about it. All I know is that Im happy to see people brewing and bringing barely tested decks expecting to win. Just less bad match ups for me.
    I totally get that, and definitely am stoked that new decks could emerge from this unbanning, I guess the point I was trying (and failing) to make is why is Land Tax suddenly $40? The only logical reason for people to believe it will stay at that inflated price is if it really does become a MAJOR player, and I don't see it happening. Though I suppose my mistake there was trying to apply logic to the MtG secondary market.
    Legacy: Miracles

  9. #89
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    I knew there was a reason I held on to my Land Taxes.
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  10. #90
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by Basaka View Post
    You can now play land tax at GP Atlanta. They moved the effective date to the 29th!
    I just saw that

    Interesting move by WoTC.
    Tusk up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS

  11. #91
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Ahhh I see....
    Were there really worse shitstorms in the past? What I experienced in my relatively young legacy career (brainstorm, misstep, temporal mastery, griselbrand) was already really bad...
    Yes. Oh my god yes.

    Back in the day on these forums you weren't really even supposed to discuss banning/unbanning cards.

    Everytime someone did it would usually start with "unban Land Tax." Everyone would agree but then one or two idiots would chime in it was broken. Then people would start discussing other cards that should be unbanned, usually starting with Earthcraft and quickly having people escalate to stuff like Mana Drain (which is still a bad idea but would have been absolutely insane this far back), Dragon, Frantic Search, Vampiric, Channel, ect. Then it would get even more retarded and people would start chiming in with stuff like Strip Mine, Gush, Necro... Everyone would call everyone else a fucking idiot then the thread would get locked. A couple months would pass then rinse/repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
    Everybody keeps saying that, except it turns the enchantress deck into a turn 3 combo deck that never loses to blue decks.
    What? How does Earthcraft make Enchantress beat blue decks? Aside from slightly buffing Argothians and making Sacred Mesa + Wild Growth + Earthcraft a combo what does it really do? By the time you assemble a 3 card combo in Enchantress with 2 cards doing very little on their own a normal Enchantress list could have locked the opponent out of the game. Unless you are running all the combo pieces in multiples I don't see how you get any consistent turn 3 win. If you are running tutors MD you are going to be assembling that combo at a snails pace and be that much worse vs. blue decks.

    I've played a lot of Enchantress and I just don't see Earthcraft making sense in multiples. I'm not even sure I would run it at all in Enchantress. It really doesn't add much to the deck and if you are running Mesa over Sigil to make it anything better than "untap target basic land once a turn" you are trading a good wincon for a terrible one unless Craft is in play.
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  12. #92
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Earthcraft-Squirrel Nest is only two cards. Also Squirrel Nest is fairly useful by itself. It would be quite decent in Enchantress and push it up in power. But it'd still be safe I think.

    Dragon too.

    Also Mana Drain was often discussed back in the old days because it had been legal and a defining but not particularly insane card in old 1.5. I mean it was definitely top tier but it never felt broken. And yes, it'd be much more fair now when Counterspell barely sees play and the mana curve is so much lower.
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  13. #93
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    I wonder if Enchantress will play Land Tax. They can feed Solitary Confinement with it and it seems like a decent draw Engine with Attunement. Return Attunement, discard some lands, draw 3 cards. Rinse and Repeat.

    Other than those two, I can't think of too many uses for Land Tax. Fuck Scroll Rack, that shit is way too slow for this metagame. And Seismic Assualt... is much better with Loam than it is with Land Tax because Loam actually serves a purpose by itself while Land Tax is rarely useful in that respect unless you are staring down a Loam or Crucible Wastelock.

    I have a feeling Land Tax will suffer the same fate as Grim Monolith; nobody plays it.
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  14. #94
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Memento Mori
    Sorcery
    1B
    Play Memento Mori only on your tenth turn or later.
    Target player loses the game.

    Now, that card would be outrageously powerful in certain formats; specifically, formats where getting to the tenth turn is a reasonable proposition.

    In Legacy, however, that card would quite certainly see little to no play because it does nothing during the turns you're likely to see; and even the kill conditions of very controlling decks like BUG or Miracle come online earlier than that.
    card is not unplayble. it would be heavily played.

  15. #95

    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonius View Post
    one LT trigger is all that you need. If the rest of your deck is doing work as it should you'll hang in tough then just make basic land drops. Once you're at about four or so in play thresh just loses.
    So I start, land->delver, your turn you drop a land tax from a tundra, then my turn, i dont play a land but play another delver/mongoose and swing with my flipped delver.

    Now what? You play a land and never get to activate your land tax? Or you hold on to your one land and dont develop your board?

    You go ahead and play your Land Tax. Go ahead.

  16. #96
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
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  17. #97
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Lol... there's so many ZOMGTAX.dec forums springing up right now. I feel like the IRS is cracking down on Legacy or something.

    Also..
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  18. #98
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by useL View Post
    So I start, land->delver, your turn you drop a land tax from a tundra, then my turn, i dont play a land but play another delver/mongoose and swing with my flipped delver.

    Now what? You play a land and never get to activate your land tax? Or you hold on to your one land and dont develop your board?

    You go ahead and play your Land Tax. Go ahead.
    Or Rug wastes/stfiles my first land drop, plays a second land and i drop land tax on my second turn.
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  19. #99
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    Or Rug wastes/stfiles my first land drop, plays a second land and i drop land tax on my second turn.
    Daze. My turn?
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  20. #100
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    Re: June 20th B&R List Update: Land Tax unbanned

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Daze. My turn?
    This scenario is stupid, because if you kill my first land, play delver and counter my 1-drop it doesnt matter if I play tax or not..

    Also I can play daze with tax too, and so on...

    The card is absolutely playable and the lowered duals/fetch count you play with it, doesnt help RUG´s plan in the first place.
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