[Deck] Hypergenesis

[teonsw]

Ended up playing at Jupiter placing 5th overall winning a set of savanahs, report to come tomorrow.

[teonsw]

Report is up!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...087#post699087

[Sturtzilla]

Great job! Nice read too! I have to agree with the comment about using a FoW on a 3 damage burn spell. Typically, if you need to cast a FoW to counter a burn spell it really should be a workhorse like Price of Progress, Flame Rift, or Fireblast or when you are forced to because you are low on life. It doesn't sound like this was that big of a concern as you were able to come back. Sideboards really just make Burn a lower tier deck. Anyway congrats again on the finish! Do you have any outstanding thoughts on your configuration and/or sideboard? Any tweaks you would make if you were to play it again?

[teonsw]

Great job! Nice read too! I have to agree with the comment about using a FoW on a 3 damage burn spell. Typically, if you need to cast a FoW to counter a burn spell it really should be a workhorse like Price of Progress, Flame Rift, or Fireblast or when you are forced to because you are low on life. It doesn't sound like this was that big of a concern as you were able to come back. Sideboards really just make Burn a lower tier deck. Anyway congrats again on the finish! Do you have any outstanding thoughts on your configuration and/or sideboard? Any tweaks you would make if you were to play it again?

I personally feel like the side board was fine i only sided into ley lines of sanctity for most games and into of the void for one round. Terastodon was brought in against UW blade to remove karakas. The only match up that i was totally dreading was 12 post because of how much we give them with a hypergenesis if our emrakul isn't hasted. Luckily i avoided that match up and for that i think terastodon would have been an mvp. The deck seems to run like a well oiled machine that just gets there.

[teonsw]

Random thing that i was thinking about, I chose to run both 1 Maelstrom Wanderer and 1 Akroma's Memorial for the reason in testing, whenever i stuck a wanderer and a fatty against certain decks the wanderer would get swords'd. I like being able to pitch it to FoW but it Is slightly worse then Akroma's Memorial once they hit the battlefield.

[Sturtzilla]

Random thing that i was thinking about, I chose to run both 1 Maelstrom Wanderer and 1 Akroma's Memorial for the reason in testing, whenever i stuck a wanderer and a fatty against certain decks the wanderer would get swords'd. I like being able to pitch it to FoW but it Is slightly worse then Akroma's Memorial once they hit the battlefield.

That sounds reasonable. Your opponent is likely going to try to survive a turn or or try to sneak out an extra draw. Would you keep the split or move to one option over the other?

[Mr. Safety]

I am starting to get into this deck, but not in the traditional sense. I'm not using Show and Tell and I'm relying on Chancellors for additional acceleration/protection. I have found Chancellor of the Annex to be really good, especially against blue decks in theory. Chancellor of the Tangle also allows for a lot more turn 1 combos, which can be impressive given Annex protection. Rather than go for Force of Will protection, I'm more planning on landing a draw-7 of some sort (Jin, Grisel.)

Current list, focusing all-in on Hypergenesis:

4x Shardless Agent
4x Ardent Plea
4x Violent Outburst
3x Hypergenesis

2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
3x Griselbrand
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
2x Angel of Despair
2x Oblivion Ring

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

4x Irrigation Ditch
4x Archaeological Dig
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine


I would appreciate any comments or help. I have Force of Will available, but not Show and Tell. I have found, in my short amount of testing, that it has been really good to have some sort of combination of fatties rather than simply getting one Emrakul/Griselbrand/Progenitus. In my tiny brain, this is the reason for playing Hypergenesis over a traditional Show and Tell/Sneak Attack setup. Any help is appreciated.

[Sturtzilla]

I am starting to get into this deck, but not in the traditional sense. I'm not using Show and Tell and I'm relying on Chancellors for additional acceleration/protection. I have found Chancellor of the Annex to be really good, especially against blue decks in theory. Chancellor of the Tangle also allows for a lot more turn 1 combos, which can be impressive given Annex protection. Rather than go for Force of Will protection, I'm more planning on landing a draw-7 of some sort (Jin, Grisel.)

I would appreciate any comments or help. I have Force of Will available, but not Show and Tell. I have found, in my short amount of testing, that it has been really good to have some sort of combination of fatties rather than simply getting one Emrakul/Griselbrand/Progenitus. In my tiny brain, this is the reason for playing Hypergenesis over a traditional Show and Tell/Sneak Attack setup. Any help is appreciated.

I have a few initial thoughts about the list that you have posted. The first would be that you have significantly reduced the potency of the deck by reducing the major threats; those being Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Progenitus. While you have filled in some of the gaps with other threats, these would likely be subpar in most match ups. I could entertain possibly adding some of these threats to the sideboard for specific match ups.

Second, Chancellor of the Annex does not protect your combo in the same sense that Force of Will and Misdirection do. Chancellor only really slows down your opponent's first spell. FoW and Misdirection are ideal because they allow you to counter the actual spells that would screw up the combo. The list you have proposed has no real way to protect the combo from the actual counter spells that define this format.

Show and Tell is pretty necessary as a turn 1-3 threat; more specifically, Emrakul, Projenitus, or Griselbrand just wins games. I am not sure that is the case with some of the threats you have added to the list.

Finally, your proposed mana base is horrifically vulnerable to Wasteland. Wasteland is a popular card in Legacy. I am not convinced that this manabase will even be consistent if you are lucky enough to get non-Wasteland match up. I am of the opinion that these changes are probably not for the best. You might be able to get somewhere at locals with this list if you are lucky. I wouldn't take this to a large tournament.

[Mr. Safety]

The combo is more designed to happen turn 1, with turn 2 being the 'backup plan.' It happens quite often with Tangle mana. The mana base rough against Wasteland...but I figured fetches into dual lands wouldn't be any less susceptible. I'm banking on raw speed, basically hoping to use Annex taxing to protect a turn 1 combo, or to slow down opponent's by a turn so I can combo off Irrigation ditch turn 2.

It isn't a matter of whether or not I can combo into lethal damage on turn 1-2, that happens quite often. I'm working towards a full set of Emrakul for sure, and maybe even the 4th Griselbrand. What I lose in Show and Tell I gain back by playing a full 12 cascade spells.

Anyways, I'm not arguing, just trying to tell you where I'm coming from. I'm not new to legacy at all, just used to playing my own Wastelands in The Rock. This is a pet project of mine.

[Sturtzilla]

The combo is more designed to happen turn 1, with turn 2 being the 'backup plan.' It happens quite often with Tangle mana. The mana base rough against Wasteland...but I figured fetches into dual lands wouldn't be any less susceptible. I'm banking on raw speed, basically hoping to use Annex taxing to protect a turn 1 combo, or to slow down opponent's by a turn so I can combo off Irrigation ditch turn 2.

I will agree that using Chancellor mana and countering to go off on turn one could be very good. The problem is that if you don't have exactly the right combination of cards for use on your first turn, you lose a almost all of your resiliency. As for your mana base, I am still not sold. If you look at the versions of this decks that have put up winning results, you will notice that there is one of each basic land and one of each dual. So the original version of this deck might have to worry about Stifle in some situations, but can dodge Wasteland just fine.

It isn't a matter of whether or not I can combo into lethal damage on turn 1-2, that happens quite often. I'm working towards a full set of Emrakul for sure, and maybe even the 4th Griselbrand. What I lose in Show and Tell I gain back by playing a full 12 cascade spells.

"Quite often" is a fluffy, i.e. qualitative, while not quantitative, statement. Can you give us a idea of how often this actually happens when goldfishing or in actual games? That would be a lot more helpful.

[Mr. Safety]

"Quite often" is a fluffy, i.e. qualitative, while not quantitative, statement. Can you give us a idea of how often this actually happens when goldfishing or in actual games? That would be a lot more helpful.

I agree...didn't mean to be fluffy. Still in the testing phase, but so far I'm getting a turn 1 combo with Chancellor protection about 10% of the time. Not stellar by any means. Turn 1 combo happens about 35% of the time, but not always with Annex protection.

I can definately work in the Forces maindeck, but I still don't have Show and Tell. Thoughts on how to do this without S&T?

[Sturtzilla]

I agree...didn't mean to be fluffy. Still in the testing phase, but so far I'm getting a turn 1 combo with Chancellor protection about 10% of the time. Not stellar by any means. Turn 1 combo happens about 35% of the time, but not always with Annex protection.

I can definately work in the Forces maindeck, but I still don't have Show and Tell. Thoughts on how to do this without S&T?

So this configuration is basically a less consistent version of Belcher that doesn't immediately kill the opponent. I Still think some work needs to be done on the list. I am not a fan of the lack of combo protection and the awkward mana base. I think you should work on honing it in a bit more, then play some events with it, then let us know how they went.

[Mr. Safety]

Fair enough, I'll let you know.

[teonsw]

I've been doing fairly well with this deck, and have come across many situations in which I have fetched for basic lands due to wasteland being a prominent factor in our format. I feel as if going in balls to the walls turn one is cool and all if you have the chancellor to ramp you. But if they have a force do you just sit there for a bunch of turns till you can do it again? In addition misdirection in the meta right now is really potent. Misdirecting hymn to tourach is just insane. Plus having force not only for your own combo protection but against belcher and storm comes in handy. In addition i have won off of show and tell a few times, the thing is against reanimator if they bring iona on green you have a blue way out and if they slaughter games your hypergenesis you still have show and tell.

[Asthereal]

4x Irrigation Ditch

Really? Enters the battlefield tapped, while you want to win on turn one?
That's probably a small brain fart. I forgive you.

Instead have a look at:

Tendo Ice Bridge
Undiscovered Paradise
Gemstone Caverns

The latter can help win on turn 1 of you are on the draw.
Maybe it's more sideboard material, but still.

Edit: nice trick with the Caverns would be to always have the opponent start. You will then have 16 mana accellerants (8x Guide, 4x Chancellor, 4x Caverns). That does mess up the taxing Chancellor though...

[Sturtzilla]

Edit: nice trick with the Caverns would be to always have the opponent start. You will then have 16 mana accellerants (8x Guide, 4x Chancellor, 4x Caverns). That does mess up the taxing Chancellor though...

I totally agree with the suggested lands. I think that this is an interesting take on the list. We may be losing consistency for this gain in speed. I am interested in hearing the testing results here though.

[Asthereal]

When I tried a setup like this I got fucked over by my list all the time.
Constantly hands with no accell, no business, no dudes, no protection when I needed it.
Stuff like that.

But for someone slightly more lucky than myself it could work, I guess.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been testing the turd out of this deck, albeit a non-optimal list. I have made some serious changes, but i still lack the neccessary dual lands (so I'm using shocks, besides Savannah.) It has been gold-fishing around turn 3, turn 2 sometimes, and occasionally the stone-cold with a turn 1. I have 3x Force maindeck and a slew of blue-based fatties to support the forces. Sideboard brings in Ricochet Trap against blue decks and the Leylines are a streamlined plan of attack against problematic matchups.


Enablers - 14
3x Shardless Agent
4x Ardent Plea
4x Violent Outburst
3x Hypergenesis

Fatties - 19
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
2x Emrakul
1x Blightsteel Colossus
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Angel of Despair
3x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Progenitus
1x Empyrial Archangel

Protection - 5
3x Force of Will
2x Oblivion Ring

Mana Boosters - 8
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Lands - 14
2x Arid Mesa
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Irrigation Ditch
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Savannah
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Natural Order
4x Ricochet Trap


Please feel free to comment on the list. I do not have 4 copies of Force or Emrakul, and I don't own Show and Tell. I'm going to a local tournament, usually 12-18 players, and I'm using Natural Order as my alternative combo enabler out of the board. It's weak because it's green and the best target is Progenitus. I was hoping to get a Worldspine Wurm to add to the decklist, but it didn't pan out. If it shows up in the mail before next Saturday it will replace Empyrial Archangel.

I realize this isn't optimal, but it is a ton better than where I started. I still have 2x Irrigation Ditch in the deck because Wasteland is not prominant in my meta-game, and the potential for the double mana on turn 3 is worth 2 slots (in my opinion, given my narrow little corner of the world meta-game.)

[Sturtzilla]

Please feel free to comment on the list. I do not have 4 copies of Force or Emrakul, and I don't own Show and Tell. I'm going to a local tournament, usually 12-18 players, and I'm using Natural Order as my alternative combo enabler out of the board. It's weak because it's green and the best target is Progenitus. I was hoping to get a Worldspine Wurm to add to the decklist, but it didn't pan out. If it shows up in the mail before next Saturday it will replace Empyrial Archangel.

I like the configuration a lot better than the list you posted a while back. I still think having more permission is where you what to be in order to force the combo through. I guess an alternative is just running more Cascade spells, which is what you have done. The problem with this plan is that opponents can just slow you down by countering early Cascades. This could buy them enough time to win the game or to find an answer to you fatties. Part of the original strength of the deck was to be able to just combo off on turn 1-2 rather consistently. This really reduces your opponent's means to favorably interact with you. This really reduces the spells that you have to play around to say, FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, and some Discard. This deck is very one dimensional and it is very aggressive in this one dimension. If you give up the advantage you have in this area, you might as well play a different deck.

On Worldspine Wurm, if you have a way to give it haste, it might be borderline/worth considering, as it can plop into play and just kill an opponent. However StP and PtE make it a less attractive creature for this deck in my opinion. If you are set on running it, I would put it in the sideboard versus non-white/non-black decks.

I realize this isn't optimal, but it is a ton better than where I started. I still have 2x Irrigation Ditch in the deck because Wasteland is not prominant in my meta-game, and the potential for the double mana on turn 3 is worth 2 slots (in my opinion, given my narrow little corner of the world meta-game.)

If there are not too many Wastelands in your meat what kind of meta is this then?

[bernson]

The List looks somewhat solid. If possible, I'd try to get my hands on the 4th FOW & 4th Shardless agent. That would make 12 cascade spells, instead of the regular 8- with 4 show & tell.
I don't really like the Natural order plan, I think it is too dependant on having a green creature in play. I rather like to see sneak attack (4 to cast as well), I know Brad Nelson used some in his list. for the SB, I like misdirection over ricochet trap if you have them.