[Deck] Hypergenesis

[Asthereal]

Actually I feel Misdirection is main deck material - again, if you have them of course.
Other than that the list looks okay. Maybe you could try to add some lands. You really need 3 mana, or else your deck does nothing at all.

If you want a 12th cascade spell, you can also try one Demonic Dread. Nicely cheap common, that is. :)
Does demand a different mana base though (Gemstone Mine, Citiy of Brass, Tendo Ice Bridge and Undiscovered Paradise).
This rules out the Natural Order plan, since you no longer have the option to fetch an Arbor.
I agree with the Sneak Attack as alternative for Natural Order. That seems like a very good choice.

Note on Worldspine Wurm: I think it's pretty good. You can definitely keep it in.
You will drop two fatties almost every time you combo anyway, so they kill the Wurm but then Jin&Tonic draws you a full set of new stuff. :)

[Mr. Safety]

Dropped the Ditchs altogether, added a Plateau and a basic Forest. No Dryad Arbors, and no Natural Order. I also dropped all ORings for more Angel of Despair. I never hard-cast ORing, so I wanted the 5/5 Vindicate instead.

Sideboard:
1x Hypergenesis (first one will likely be countered against blue decks, this gets it up to 3 so I can try again 2 more times)
2x Blazing Archon (fast tribals)
4x Ricochet Trap (blue decks)
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void

Playing in a local tomorrow with the list. I'll be sure to post a report.

[Mr. Safety]

Took first place, 12 players, 4 rounds. Went 8-2 for games. Losses came from a solid mono-black reanimator deck that played Smallpox on my ass and against RUG Delver. I'll be back later to get a detailed report in. The deck was really fun, super consistent (turn 2-3 unless disrupted). I played against that Reanimator, B/r Dark Confidant homebrew, Belcher, and RUG Delver.

Fun time was had by all (well, at least me...)

[jcsy]

Took first place, 12 players, 4 rounds. Went 8-2 for games. Losses came from a solid mono-black reanimator deck that played Smallpox on my ass and against RUG Delver. I'll be back later to get a detailed report in. The deck was really fun, super consistent (turn 2-3 unless disrupted). I played against that Reanimator, B/r Dark Confidant homebrew, Belcher, and RUG Delver.

Fun time was had by all (well, at least me...)

did you use Worldspine wurm, or maelstrom wanderer?

[Mr. Safety]

did you use Worldspine wurm, or maelstrom wanderer?

Neither, I put in a 4th Griselbrand because I couldn't get either one in time.

[Sturtzilla]

Neither, I put in a 4th Griselbrand because I couldn't get either one in time.

I am pretty sure that you want to be on 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakul, and 4 Progenitus. These are some of the hardest creatures for typical decks to deal with. They present fast clocks, resource advantages for us (life and cards), and resource disadvantages for opponents (sacrificing permanents). Typically there are 2 flex slots. I am not on board with this Worldspine Wurm plan personally. I think that he is easy to get rid of via Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, both of which negate his dies ability. I think you probably want the Wanderer, Akroma's Memorial, or Angel of Despair in these slots. These should generally be higher impact cards.

[Karhumies]

Here's a few pseudo-random card possibilities for the SB, mostly meta choices:

catch-all
Teferi's Realm
Terastodon
Zealous Conscripts

big bodies which do something useful before the combo
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Tangle
Chancellor of the Forge (especially with Natural Order)

vs storm variants
Mindbreak Trap
Trinisphere

other mana denial
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Choke
Back to Basics

utility creatures
Phyrexian Metamorph

vs big opposing creatures
Sower of Temptation
Conquering Manticore
Molten Primordial
Luminate Primordial

bounce
Wipe Away
Man-o'-War

non-leyline grave hate
Faerie Macabre
Ravenous Trap

vs Humility
Reverent Silence

[Asthereal]

Chancellor of the Forge (especially with Natural Order)

This doesn't actually work, since Order requires you to sac a green guy, not a red one.

Some of the other stuff could work. We tried the other Chancellors. They can be good sometimes. They do have their disadvantages though. Tangle sucks if you don't have the Spirit Guide and land to go for a turn one try. Annex sucks if your opponent starts and has Force of Will plus a land to pay for the Annex cost or something. And as creatures they are just not that good. Annex would stop Storm from going off, but that's about it. In most cases you would just rather have Emrakul, Griselbrand or Progenitus.

The other stuff you mentioned is mostly corner case useful. If you can Blood Moon them out of the game (and yourself, since you play like 16 non-basics) you can also just Shardless -> Hypergenesis -> two really big dudes. That seems better in a way. I feel that this deck already is pretty inconsistent (no cantrips) and can only work if it's fully committed and focused on the wincon. I'd recommend this deck only with the following setup:

4 Show and Tell
4 Shardless Agent
4 Violent Outburst
2 Hypergenesis /14

4 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
4 Progenitus
4 Griselbrand
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria /14

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection /7

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide /8

2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills /17

Side:
0-1 Misdirection
1-3 City of Solitude
3 Ingot Chewer (thanks for the help on that one )
3 Faerie Macabre
2-3 Angel of Despair
4 Leyline of Sanctity /15
(changes depending on the meta)

[Karhumies]

The other stuff you mentioned is mostly corner case useful.
... I feel that this deck already is pretty inconsistent (no cantrips) and can only work if it's fully committed and focused on the wincon.

I agree with both of these points.

With the Chancellors, I was primarily trying to think of a creature which could have a beneficial impact on the game already before hitting the board to compliment the Terastodon / Angel of Despair commonly used in the sideboard. This deck does not have any 1-2 mana plays, which can occasionally make us sitting ducks G2 on the play. I agree that the Chancellors' unassisted racing ability is poor.

Some poor cards which can also be used to cantrip:
Street Wraith
Rebuild
Rescind
Scrap
Break Asunder
Hush

Unfortunately, the cards with 1 mana cycling cost tend to be very poor. (Deadshot Minotaur, tap lands, Monstrous Carabid, etc.)

3 Evoke artifact killer (forgot its name)

Ingot Chewer

[Mr. Safety]

I am pretty sure that you want to be on 4 Griselbrand, 4 Emrakul, and 4 Progenitus. These are some of the hardest creatures for typical decks to deal with. They present fast clocks, resource advantages for us (life and cards), and resource disadvantages for opponents (sacrificing permanents). Typically there are 2 flex slots. I am not on board with this Worldspine Wurm plan personally. I think that he is easy to get rid of via Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, both of which negate his dies ability. I think you probably want the Wanderer, Akroma's Memorial, or Angel of Despair in these slots. These should generally be higher impact cards.

Worldspine is not an option anymore, and also keep in mind that it is a budget list.

Current list:

4x Shardless Agent
4x Violent Outburst
3x Ardent Plea
2x Hypergenesis

4x Griselbrand
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Progenitus
4x Chancellor of the Annex
2x Angel of Despair
2x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Inkwell Leviathan

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

3x Force of Will

3x Arid Mesa
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Stomping Ground
1x Plateau
1x Savannah

Sideboard

1x Hypergenesis
1x Angel of Despair
3x Ricochet Trap
2x Blazing Archon
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void


Improvements moving forward: 2 more copies of Emrakul, 3 more copies of Progenitus. I would cut Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwell Leviathan, and Blightsteel Colossus to make room. If I happen to trade into the 4th Force of Will I would then cut an Angel of Despair to make room, putting it to the sideboard and dropping the Blazing Archons. If I trade into the correct dual lands, then I'll replace those as well. It isn't likely I'll get the dual lands, but the 4th Force is something I'm working on aggressively just like the Emrakuls and Progenitus'.

The budget lands didn't bother me at all, because I was usually still at 10 life or so when I combo-ed out. I would just sit on fetchlands and crack them on the combo turn. At the tournament I Force-d a Stifle to win, and I worked around Spell Pierce too with a spare land and Simian Spirit Guide.

Full tournament report is here:

http://www.mtgfanatic.com/Forum/View...=1&PageSize=25

[Sturtzilla]

Worldspine is not an option anymore, and also keep in mind that it is a budget list.

Improvements moving forward: 2 more copies of Emrakul, 3 more copies of Progenitus. I would cut Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwell Leviathan, and Blightsteel Colossus to make room. If I happen to trade into the 4th Force of Will I would then cut an Angel of Despair to make room, putting it to the sideboard and dropping the Blazing Archons. If I trade into the correct dual lands, then I'll replace those as well. It isn't likely I'll get the dual lands, but the 4th Force is something I'm working on aggressively just like the Emrakuls and Progenitus'.

I think playing guys that are vulnerable to Swords and Path is probably a poor call unless they really are going to be winning you the game, more or less, on the spot. To clarify this a bit, Emrakul and Progenitus are both very difficult for opponents to deal with. Griselbrand may be targetable with removal, but he gives us the option to dig deeper into the deck, possibly enabling another Cascade combo in the same turn, possibly finding a Haste enabler, and hopefully just ending the game. It sounds like you are having a decent level of success with your version of the deck. Your report was enjoyable/fun read, thanks. On another note, I had not considered Blightsteel Colossus as a player in the flex slots of this deck. I think I would still want two cards that give Haste, a la Malestrom Wanderer or Akroma's Memorial. Blightsteel is relatively hard to deal with for most decks (really hard for non-white decks) and threatens to win the game in one attack; however, winning through infect damage/poison is a diverging path to victory for all of the other creatures in the deck. I think testing him out a bit more would be worth your time. I am curious to hear how he works out. I would cut the Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwells and other items before the Blightsteels. As a sidenote, my meta game has shifted a bit toward Jund and BUG style decks... Misdirection is pretty powerful in these matches. I may have to dust this deck off and run it a few times.

[Asthereal]

This deck does not have any 1-2 mana plays, which can occasionally make us sitting ducks G2 on the play.

If you worry about being too slow to have impact on the game, you could still try the FoW/Misdirectionless list we discussed earlier. Your mana base would contain 8x Spirit Guide, 4x Gemstone Caverns and 4x Chancellor of the Tangle. You let you opponent start every game (they'll like it very much, and another cool fact is that the only deck that ever lets the opponent start requires a very different technique to beat: Manaless Dredge), and because they strat you have 16 mana accellerators. Because you don't play the free counterspells, you need the Chancellor of the Annex as protection, and just hope you don't encounter too many FoWs.

I would vote against this plan, because you just lose to Force of Will, which seems rather weak in Legacy, but I guess it could be an idea in certain types of metas.

[Mr. Froggy]

I just got myself some Shardless Agents to make this deck, because it seems to be a fun deck to play. :)

[Mr. Safety]

I think playing guys that are vulnerable to Swords and Path is probably a poor call unless they really are going to be winning you the game, more or less, on the spot. To clarify this a bit, Emrakul and Progenitus are both very difficult for opponents to deal with. Griselbrand may be targetable with removal, but he gives us the option to dig deeper into the deck, possibly enabling another Cascade combo in the same turn, possibly finding a Haste enabler, and hopefully just ending the game. It sounds like you are having a decent level of success with your version of the deck. Your report was enjoyable/fun read, thanks. On another note, I had not considered Blightsteel Colossus as a player in the flex slots of this deck. I think I would still want two cards that give Haste, a la Malestrom Wanderer or Akroma's Memorial. Blightsteel is relatively hard to deal with for most decks (really hard for non-white decks) and threatens to win the game in one attack; however, winning through infect damage/poison is a diverging path to victory for all of the other creatures in the deck. I think testing him out a bit more would be worth your time. I am curious to hear how he works out. I would cut the Jin-Gitaxias, Inkwells and other items before the Blightsteels. As a sidenote, my meta game has shifted a bit toward Jund and BUG style decks... Misdirection is pretty powerful in these matches. I may have to dust this deck off and run it a few times.

I face almost zero BUG decks. My reasoning for Jin was because he is yet ANOTHER creature that draws you more cards. Honestly, he's there to enable a 2nd cascade or simply to draw into Force of Will (while raping opponent's hands.) I liked it, but I agree that Progenitus should replace Jin + Inkwell.

Iona is *almost* as good as Grisel/Emrakul. Most of the time I was swinging for lethal and Iona shuts off removal or problematic colors (white for Swords/Terminus, Blue for Jace.

Honestly it's the MIX of fatties that really counts. I fought through DOUBLE Innocent Blood and still won the game. Show and Tell can't do that, at least it's much harder. If you want to play Show and Tell, play Show and Tell. Hypergenesis is like an 'over the top' Show and Tell deck, in my opinion. If I have Iona + Chancellor, that usually gets there. Chancellor is janky, but it's also great against Storm. It's also a way to play Daze without, you know, playing Daze. Buying you one extra turn essentially quickens your fundamental turn. I know that isn't exactly the case, but it has worked really well.

Angel of Despair is a simple neccessity in the deck, honestly. What happens when they board in Humility? Uh oh...

Changes for me moving forward:

-2 Jin
-1 Inkwell
+3 Progenitus

-2 Blightsteel Colossus
+2 Emrakul

-1 SOMETHING
+1 Force of Will

That would put it right where I want it, honestly. I have no intentions of making it into a pseudo-Show and Tell deck. I'm playing Hypergenesis with 11-12 cascade spells, because that's how I roll.

[Mr. Safety]

I just got myself some Shardless Agents to make this deck, because it seems to be a fun deck to play. :)

Fun-factor is huge. If there was such thing as an interactive Timmy combo deck, this is it.

[Asthereal]

I have no intentions of making it into a pseudo-Show and Tell deck. I'm playing Hypergenesis with 11-12 cascade spells, because that's how I roll.

Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

With this in mind, most decide S&T is better than Plea. I support S&T in this case.
Remember that 2/3's of your wincons is still Cascade -> Hypergenesis.
The S&T is just there because its better than Ardent Plea.

I did forget to mention one argument that is irrelevant in normal discussion, but might be relevant for you:
S&T costs like $30 or more, whereas Plea costs like $1 each.

[Mr. Safety]

Show and Tell is better than Ardent Plea for three reasons, and worse for just one:
1. Plea cannot be cast with two Spirit Guides plus one land, S&T can.
2. Stifle doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the cascade from Plea.
3. Chalice at zero doesn't stop S&T, but does stop the Hypergenesis from Plea.
-4. Plea enables dropping more than one 'Main Dude', S&T doesn't.

With this in mind, most decide S&T is better than Plea. I support S&T in this case.
Remember that 2/3's of your wincons is still Cascade -> Hypergenesis.
The S&T is just there because its better than Ardent Plea.

I did forget to mention one argument that is irrelevant in normal discussion, but might be relevant for you:
S&T costs like $30 or more, whereas Plea costs like $1 each.

Show and Tell is obviously the more powerful card, but my goal with Hypergenesis wasn't to play just a different version of Show and Tell. I wanted to play multiple fat dudes fast.

I haven't seen Chalice or Trinisphere even once in my metagame, which doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means that they certainly aren't prominent. Thalia is tough, basically shutting the deck down, so I have to mulligan into a turn 1-2 combo if I'm going to beat Thalia. If anyone has any ideas on how to beat Thalia, I would welcome them. The best I can come up with right now is Shriekmaw, which doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

[iamajellydonut]

Thalia is tough, basically shutting the deck down, so I have to mulligan into a turn 1-2 combo if I'm going to beat Thalia. If anyone has any ideas on how to beat Thalia, I would welcome them. The best I can come up with right now is Shriekmaw, which doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

I'll give you a hint as to what card solves this. It's three words, starts with "Show", and ends with "Tell".

[Mr. Safety]

I'll give you a hint as to what card solves this. It's three words, starts with "Show", and ends with "Tell".

Good one!

[Asthereal]

Show and Tell is obviously the more powerful card, but my goal with Hypergenesis wasn't to play just a different version of Show and Tell. I wanted to play multiple fat dudes fast.

I don't get how you can say such a thing and really mean it.
The regular Show and Tell decks are WAY different from any Hypergenesis list.
They all play Brainstorm, Ponder, and so on.
This deck plays only CMC3+ cards. It's different in almost every way.

It's probably also worse in almost every way, but that's a different story.

Think of it this way:
Show and Tell/Sneak Attack decks are a bit like ANT. Resilient, but a tad slow.
Hypergenesis decks are like Belcher. Fast and very powerful, but bad against hate and not very consistent.