That bad?Originally Posted by Gheizen64
"If magic is your crutch, cast it aside and learn to walk without it." —Teferi
As i said extensively before, i think Stasis is the only shell where Vise could be good. Stasis isn't a bad deck, but you can't expect to actually win 2 games within 50 minute, especially after your opponent realize you're playing stasis and goes for the draw.That bad?
Also stasis play pretty badly against SnT and reanimator decks, as they fundamentally don't need an untap phase.
Id say between Spell Pierce, Force and Daze Stasis with Root Maze and Crop rotation-> Forsaken city is not THAT bad, as Black Vise would actually give it a (more or less) free clock.
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Ensnare
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Flooded Grove
3 Forsaken City
8 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Best list i came up with in the other topic probably.
EDIT: Ebony Owl Netsuke is actually a viable alternative to vise in a stasis deck. Back when MM was legal, Netsuke was actually the better card since it dodged the most played counter of the format.
I'd do something like
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Jace TMS
4 Impulse
4 Forsaken City
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
(Also just thrown together in 5 min)
in a stasis/blackvise build, remand could be interesting
also devastation tide sounds like an interesting option to play at opponent end of turn to bounce stasis and to fill opponent hand
iirc the last time this came up I got Godzilla to test against a Stasis list with Vise somehow, we concluded that the deck was miserable and shouldn't be allowed to exist, and then MM was spoiled and we were all "lulz safe to unban now."
But yeah no, Stasis is a miserable deck. Make Mike T happy though.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I think we are getting slightly off-topic here.
Another try at making use of Vise:
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
8 Island
4 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Jace TMS
4 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Propaganda
4 Winter Orb
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Black Vise
4 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
Gush, and Frantic Search potentially unbanned?
While I'm ok with more or less all the other cards, except probably Hermit Druid which is a bit unsafe to ban, I'd consider healthier for the format even the unban of Mana Drain rather than the unban of Frantic Search and/or Gush.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I'd like to see Tolarian Academy unbanned.
I tested it a bit, and it isn't much more broken than Land Tax, Grim Monolith or Island.
Yeah remove that Gush, it does not power up any new deck, it doesn't have interesting deckbuilding applications (every deck can play it, it benefit every deck) and neither an interesting effect on the format (MM for example COULD have pushed decks with more varied CmC costs, while it actually didn't, but whatever). Add Academy in it, a deckbuilder wet dream.
? Island is pretty broken yo. Are u arguing that someway Island is actually a fair card?
It also does not much on its own.
But it is immune to Wasteland!
Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.
@ Vise:
It seems best in any kind of Prison deck, as any other deck can empty their hand pretty fast.
Played on turn 1 its not really that much worse than a goblin guide or Delver (though not as easy to remove).
@Mindtwist
Except for NicFit and maybe DemonStompy I can't imagine ANY deck playing that at all.
Problem is that past T1 is way, way worse than delver or Guide. And it's worse on the draw too.It also does not much on its own.
But it is immune to Wasteland!
Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.
@ Vise:
It seems best in any kind of Prison deck, as any other deck can empty their hand pretty fast.
Played on turn 1 its not really that much worse than a goblin guide or Delver (though not as easy to remove).
EDIT: worse against mulligan too
Well, I am all for trimming the list a bit.
They really should unban Vise and Library of Alexandria, reprint both of them and see what happens^^
I speculate that Island might be banned for the next B/R announcement.
Removed Gush, Since its a pretty good consensus that it is too good just by reading the card. Added Academy which i missed in my initial post. The reason i started a new thread about this is because its to focus on one card not any card on the banned list.
The thread was definitely inspired by the other thread, I am interested to see how well it does do in tempo based decks like u/r delver, or rug delver. Some game reports vs current meta would be awesome i hopefully will have some time to play some games with a vise deck.
Just to reiterate we are looking to see what cards can come off the ban list in the current environment one at a time So the list posted is just the potential not the take them all off at once or even multiple off at once.
What I could come up for Academy
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Master of Aetherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Etched CHampion
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
4 Stroke of Genius
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
Or a dedicated list:
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Tolaria West
4 seat of the synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Voltaic Key
4 Stroke of Genius
4 Braingeysir
4 Mind Spring
both lists not particularly impressive (though done in 5 minutes)
imo, affinity is not really a good shell for academy. Sure the land will provide mana, but it is pretty useless with the exception of stroke of genius which sounds as a terrible card in an aggro deck (Consecrated Sphinx seems better, as much as a lot of high cmc u cards).
If I had to think about academy.dec, I'd go in the bridgewalker stax direction or MUD. Affinity seems just to work well without it and doesnt huge amount of mana.
imo, affinity is not really a good shell for academy. Sure the land will provide mana, but it is pretty useless with the exception of stroke of genius which sounds as a terrible card in an aggro deck (Consecrated Sphinx seems better, as much as a lot of high cmc u cards).
If I had to think about academy.dec, I'd go in the bridgewalker stax direction or MUD. Affinity seems just to work well without it and doesnt huge amount of mana.Exactly what I was saying.Seriously, the only existing decks I can think of that would generate absurd amounts of mana from Academy is Affinity (which can't do anything at all with that kind of mana) and MUD (which doesn't produce those amounts fast enough).
And I really doubt that manaartifacts+academy+mind over matter + draw X is that good.
Though MUD cant really proft from Academy THAT much.
It lacks the low costing artifacts to power an early big academy.
(Though you could get some really nice plays like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Top, Academy, 3Sphere)
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