Page 1 of 161 123451151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 3218

Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #1
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst


    You'll wish you had less fun!


    1. Overview
    2. The Name
    3. Core Cards
    4. Sideboards and Sideboarding
    5. Unsuccessful Ideas
    6. Tips and Tricks
    7. Why not just play ______?
    8. Matchup Analysis
    9. Coverage, Results, and Decklists
    10. Thanks


    The Name

    Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. Still Confused?



    Grizzlebee's Introduces the Onion Burst
    Take It from 'Ol Hank Murphy
    Grizzlebees Burst Meal with TinFins Toys

    It's a Sealab 2021 Reference. Good? Good. If you aren't familiar with Sealab, go watch the entire series for free on the Adult Swim site.


    Overview
    TinFins is a Reanimator / Storm hybrid built around Griselbrand. It aims to reanimate Griselbrand with haste using either Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengeance, then draw enough cards to reanimate Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and swing for 22 or generate enough storm for a lethal Tendrils of Agony. Children of Korlis is used to enable additional Griselbrand activations and greatly increase the consistency of both win conditions. It is a fairly consistent turn 1-3 combo, often with protection.

    The strengths of the deck are its redundancy, speed, and the low resource investment needed to combo off, but its reliance on the graveyard makes it susceptible to a variety of hate cards, especially when backed up by counter magic.


    Core Cards


    1 Children of Korlis
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2-4 Griselbrand
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    4 Brainstorm
    3-4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    0-2 Lim-dul's Vault

    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    1 Reanimate

    4 Cabal Therapy
    0-1 Silence
    2-4 Thoughtseize

    1-2 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    1 Tundra/Island
    2-3 Underground Sea


    Wincons:
    Griselbrand - Draw engine, wincon, reduces storm count by 3, has axes for hands.
    Emrakul - Primarily a win condition, but also used for his shuffle effect in conjunction with Children to generate mana and storm count for the Tendrils win. Rarely, he can also act as an emergency board sweeper.
    Children of Korlis - Cheap, tutorable with Entomb, and because of the wording it can combine with Emrakul's shuffle effect to give you infinite draws, life, and storm count.
    Tendrils - The argument has been made many times to drop it, but as a singleton it is generally worth it to have a way to win outside the attack step. Can also be used in a pinch to stay in the game or enable more Griselbrand activations.

    Enablers:
    These are all self explanatory. The full set of Shallow Grave is played over Goryo's because it can reanimate Children, and it doesn't target, which makes it easier to play around hate.

    Protection:
    We choose discard that can target any player because it allows us to use it as another way to get one of our creatures in the yard. While not the ideal situation, it does make us less dependent on resolving Entomb, and thereby more resilient to counters and discard.

    Mana:
    Most commonly, the deck plays 8 fetches with 5-6 mana-producing lands, including a basic Swamp and sometimes a basic Island. This gives us good resiliency to Wasteland, with plenty of shuffle effects to maximize the usefulness of Brainstorm.
    Petals, and Ritual play the usual storm roles. Chrome Mox is a concession to the need to have additional mana sources after activating Griselbrand. Some lists run 2, others a 1/1 split with Mox Diamond.


    Sideboards and Sideboarding
    The sideboard is still the greatest point of contention. Fighting hate without giving up consistency or just becoming a bad version of something else has proven to be somewhat of a challenge. The options generally involve protection against hate, transformation to a different combo/wincon, or some combination of the two. Note that some lists run a 14-card sideboard and a 61-card main deck.

    Reactive
    Probably the most common sideboard strategy. It requires knowing what hate you are likely to face from a given opponent/deck, and brings in specific answers for it. An average reactive board looks like this:

    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Massacre
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Serenity
    3 Silence
    2-3 Surgical Extraction

    The most common cards to cut for a reactive board are Probes, LDV, and Reanimate. You typically don't want to bring in more than 4-5 cards, as any more than that will water down the deck to the point of making it too inconsistent. This limitation is probably the biggest downside to a reactive strategy, as beating opponents with a wide variety of hate cards becomes extremely difficult.

    Reactive board discussion and strategy - Thanks Acclimation!

    Doomsday
    Doomsday takes advantage of boarded grave hate, is very compact, and offers multiple win conditions (Shelldock/Emrakul or Tendrils). Doomsday is a card that can be difficult to use effectively, but offers a high degree of flexibility in return. Practice is highly suggested.


    1 Shelldock Isle
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Ideas Unbound
    4 Doomsday

    Doomsday board primer/discussion -Thanks .dk!

    Historical and Theoretical Transformations

    Show and Tell - Loses a lot of redundancy, and still folds to counter + Surgical, so the rest of the board is generally countermagic devoted to winning on the stack, then protecting your beater for a few turns. Pithing Needle is required to beat Jace and Karakas. Show and Tell can also be used as an addition reactive boards, as an out to decks that pack a lot of graveyard hate.

    Painter's Servant/Grindstone - Compact, low mana requirement, no reliance on the yard. Also lets you run Blue Blasts in the board as protection, or possibly Red blasts, with a lot of manabase tweaking. Vulnerable to some anti-Griselbrand hate like Pithing Needle. Also doesn't work against opponents running Emrakul.

    Ad Nauseum - The OG transformational board. Hopes to take advantage of opponents boarding in grave hate, but becomes more vulnerable to countermagic due to relying on LED/Infernal Tutor. Also soft to anti-storm hatebears like Thalia, Teeg, and Canonist.

    The Man Plan - Run a bunch of efficient, evasive beaters like Delver of Secrets, Tombstalker Bitterblossom, and Serendib Efreet. Not graveyard dependent, but even 15 creatures isn't a lot, and can be incidentally hated out by things like Humility, Energy Field, or just anyone with a better clock. Nobody has ever actually tried this.

    15x Shadowborn Apostle - #YOLO

    Unsuccessful Ideas
    These are things that have been tried in the past, but just haven't worked out very well. If you're going to bring one of these up for discussion, please do some testing first to make sure you aren't just beating a dead horse.

    Burning Wish - There have been builds in the past splashing red specifically for Burning Wish and a Sneak Attack transformation out of the sideboard. While it does enable us to have answers to hate in game 1, the mana cost and Sorcery speed have just made it a very clunky and slow addition in the past, and that was before we ran White for Children.

    Laboratory Maniac - An alternative to Tendrils. It seems slightly cheaper to cast at first glance, but generally requires at least two Children activations to win, so it's not that cheap, is more restrictive, and is a pretty dead card on its own.

    Lion's Eye Diamond - It can act as a discard outlet, makes a ton of mana, and enables Infernal Tutor. Unfortunately, it forces you to go all in on your combo turn reducing the benefit of the redundancy in reanimation spells that this deck runs. Additionally, the extra mana provided has proven to be of marginal use as the mana requirements to combo off with this deck are quite low.

    Daze/Force of Will - Counters can be better than discard in a lot of situations, but in this deck they don't help get Griselbrand in the yard, and we usually don't have the blue count for Force

    Grim Tutor/Infernal Tutor - Tin Fins is redundant enough with 7-8 reanimation spells that tutors such as these have been found to be unnecessary. Your filter spells are generally sufficient to find the pieces that you need.

    Cunning Wish - Even though it's already on-color and can be cast on an opponent's turn to somewhat offset the extra cost, 3 mana is still a lot for a deck that only runs 13 land.


    Tips and Tricks
    Getting Griselbrand in the yard - The most obvious way is via Entomb, but you can also target yourself with discard, or just draw until you have 8 cards and discard him at end of turn.

    Reanimating Emrakul - Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow grave are Instants, letting you put Emrakul into play in response to his shuffle trigger going on the stack.

    Reanimating during opponent's end step - Both instant reanimation spells exile the target at the beginning of the next end step. Reanimating during your opponent's end step will give you that creature until the beginning of your end step, allowing you to have more mana available during your turn.

    Playing around hate - Surgical, Crypt, Deathrite, and other exile effects can all be played around, either by casting another reanimation spell in response, or in the case of Shallow Grave, letting the exile effect resolve and casting Entomb with Grave still on the stack. Finally, Entomb can be used to grab Emrakul to effectively counter these effects in a pinch.

    Children of Korlis - Can fog for a turn, or beat other Tendrils decks. Let as many copies of Tendrils resolve as possible, sac them to gain all your life back, live to fight another day.

    Going Infinite - Children of Korlis will usually give you enough additional Griselbrand activations to find another reanimation spell to bring back Children with. At this point you most likely have enough life to draw more cards than you have left in your deck (Children only cares about the life lost so far in the turn, not the net gain/loss, so after 2 Griselbrand activations, you gain 14, after 2 more you gain 28, and so on). Now you can draw until you have 6 or fewer cards left, play out all your mana sources, and then Entomb or Therapy/Thoughtseize away Emrakul to shuffle your graveyard into your libary. Continue to reanimate and sac Children, drawing mana sources and business over and over and shuffling with Emrakul when necessary to generate infinite life, storm, and mana. Then, just to rub it in, hardcast Emrakul and go to discard.


    Why not just play ______?
    • Reanimator: TinFins is faster, by a lot, and does not really care about Karakas or creature removal.
    • ANT: We play a similar protection suite, but can generally combo earlier, and with less mana. We also don't need to go all-in on Infernal Tutor/LED, so we can simply run multiple reanimation spells into counters until one resolves. The downside is having to fight through much better and more varied hate post-board, although AnT has recently become somewhat reliant on the graveyard too, as Past In Flames becomes the primary combo engine.
    • TES: Tinfins has a better manabase, and again we don't need to commit our entire hand to Infernal Tutor. Speed is similar though, and Burning Wish provides TES a ton of options for answering hate without diluting the deck.
    • Belcher: We're just about as fast, but we actually have protection, and don't need to dump our entire hand to combo off.
    • Sneak/Show: Again, we're faster and we win the turn we land Griselbrand. We're also a lot more resilient to discard.
    • Dredge: We lose to a lot of the same hate, but we have better potential for a transformative sideboard, and the ability to win as soon as we deal with hate, rather than needing to re-establish our graveyard.



    Matchup Analysis
    Generally, TinFins has a similar matchup against the field as AnT. Tempo decks are the most difficult because of their counter-suite combined with a quick clock. BUG especially because of the presence of maindeck Deathrite Shaman.

    Miracles is also tough, but moreso post-board because of the amount and variety of hate they have access to (Rest In Peace, Karakas, Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle). Similar story with Deathblade, but possibly more difficult due to maindeck Deathrite.

    Death and Taxes can be troublesome, but they have no turn 0/1 interaction, and Massacre is brutal postboard.

    Anything else without counters is generally a cakewalk.

    Other combo decks are usually slower, and we have silence in the board.


    Coverage, Results, and Decklists
    Coverage:
    Carsten Kotter's Article on SCG
    Caleb Durward's Article on ChannelFireball
    Deck Tech with Greg Mitchell (phazonmuant)

    Games:
    SCG Atlanta 2013 - Greg Mitchell Round 5, Legacy
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/363601431?t=6h56m

    SCG Cincinnati - Caleb Durward Round 6, Legacy
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/368418943?t=3h25m

    SCG Las Vegas 2013 - Jacob Kory
    Round 7
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=3h55m
    Quarterfinals
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=6h42m
    Finals
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=9h3m

    MTGO Streaming Legacy Daily - Jacob Kory
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/366844881
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/369271763
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/371412000
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/371766972
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/374336353

    MTGO Legacy Matches - Caleb Durward
    http://www.channelfireball.com/video...ins-matches/#1


    Results and Decklists
    Josh Bingaman - 58th place, Grand Prix New Jersey (2014-11-16): Report

    Max Martinez - 15th place, SCG Oakland (2014-11-2):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15152&iddeck=112440

    Logan Creen - 8th place, SCG St. Louis (2013-06-09):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80871

    Chad Warford - 14th, SCG Seattle (2013-04-21):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10720&iddeck=78247

    Jacob Kory - 2nd place, SCG Las Vegas (2012-03-03):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10299&iddeck=75048

    Caleb Durward - 18th place, SCG Cincinnati (2013-02-17):
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Children of Korlis
    4 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Reanimate
    4 Entomb
    3 Careful Study
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Underground Sea

    // Sideboard
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Deathmark
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Duress
    3 Blue Elemental Blast

    Greg Mitchell - 34th Place, SCG Atlanta (2013-02-12): Report

    Josh Bingaman - 86th place, GP Atlanta (2012-07-01): Report


    Thanks
    Many, many thanks go out to .dk and Phazonmuant for contributing so much to this primer. What I didn't outright steal, I used for ideas and inspiration, and there's still a ton of content I haven't included yet. Also many thanks to those two for keeping the thread and the dream alive in the early days, and for continuing to be great contributors to the thread as the popularity has taken off.

    Thanks go to Dela for seeing the potential in Children of Korlis, and .dk for taking the time to test it.

    Many thanks to CalebD and Koby for all the publicity and the great results, and thanks to Cedric Phillips for actually reading a Sealab episode synopsis on air.

    Lastly, thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread. We've had some great ideas, and the discussion has been civil and productive so far. This is my favorite thread on The Source, and not just because I started it.

    "This deck has everything going for it" - Koby
    Last edited by Richard Cheese; 11-21-2014 at 01:06 PM.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  2. #2

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I have not yet read the list, I just wanted to tell you that I grossly appreciate the name and LOL'd irl.

    Ty. Thoughts to come.

    Thoughts to come: that list looks pretty sweet. I like it. Grizzlebee's should always connect on turn 1-2 and if he doesn't you still gain a lot of life to activate his draw 7 enough times to win anyways.

  3. #3
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Dec 2011
    Posts

    465

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I've tried something similar but with LED, S&T, and Thoughtseize. Results haven't been spectacular. Also, I really want Soul spike to work but it doesn't. I may try your build.

  4. #4
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    2,346

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    So you're essentially getting Griselbrand into play for cheap reanimator-style so you can draw a buttload of cards and storm into Tendrils FTW. If you fizzle a little bit, you just tendrils for what you got and start again. It loses you less life than Ad Nauseam and Grizzle works fantastic as a secondary 'attack you and win' with a 3-turn clock, should you draw into 3 Grizzles (which you should drawing that many cards...)

    I have to say, it's nothing if not elegant. I really like how Footsteps and Shallow Grave give the guy haste...so if you connect, the first 7 cards are 'free.' If you can't win after drawing 14 more, I would say that you're just the unluckiest guy on earth. But in reality, luck has nothing to do with it. With a 25 card hand you'll be able to do some crazy shit.

    Honestly, this reminds me of Necropotence. Draw a ton of cards and gain some life to stay in the game (or just win from having so many cards available.) I like this better than Grizzle-Reanimator, for sure.
    Approaching transcendence
    I see clarity through deprivation

    -Suffocation-

  5. #5
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Playtested a bit this weekend, deck seems like the real deal. Unfortunately didn't get to test post-board much, but pre-board it's a house. Of course it can poop itself like all combo decks (3 Ponder, 2 Careful Study no Grizzlebee?!), but overall it's very consistent.

    I'm still not convinced one way or the other on discard vs. counters, but the amount of protection actually feels alright. Not committing your entire hand to comboing off is bigger than I expected, and lets you put so much pressure on that it's hard for control decks to keep up.

    So far the worst matchups have been RUG and Merfolk (with Chalice), as one might expect for a combo deck that depends on its life total. Chalice in general is a bitch. Conceivably it could be played around in the same way as Teeg, just reanimating and setting up another reanimation before EoT, but that's like saying a car still technically works without an engine because you can roll downhill.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  6. #6

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm so glad to see someone else doing this! I've been tuning a smilar list for a few months (ever since I saw Griselbrand in the spoiler). Here's the list:

    4 Griselbrand
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Entomb
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Unmask
    2 Ponder or Duress
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Underground Sea

    SB:
    4 Pull from Eternity
    4 Chain of Vapor
    2 Deathmark
    2 Massacre
    1 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    The major differences I see is the protection. I prefer unmask because it is, in a round about way, free and can target myself. It also forces you hellbent in the event of needing to infernal tutor. Having LED main can let you crack in in response to shallow grave of he's abandoned in your hand. Pull from eternity in the side allows you to "next level" the usual graveyard hate. The deck is very powerful, it needs some time to be refined, but I have a lot of faith in the power level.
    Last edited by Jander78; 06-26-2012 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Fixed cards tags.

  7. #7
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @napdragon: That looks a lot closer to TinFins2, which was basically ANT with Grizzlebees instead of Ad Nauseam. 10 lands seems way too low though. Even with petals and Chrome Mox, you're practically begging to get screwed by Wasteland. I think if you want to run a super greedy manabase, just run TES, which has much better protection and can deal with a much wider variety of hate b/c of Burning Wish.

    Also FYI the tag is "cards", and you can actually just put one tag at the top of your list and one at the bottom. Hit "Reply with Quote" on my original post and you'll see what I mean.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  8. #8
    Gang leader of the Squirtle Squad
    I am the brainwasher's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Germany
    Posts

    340

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I played against a pretty similar deck just that it cut blue entireley and played Emrakul, Infernal Contract, Lake of the dead (which was a beast in the games) and Unmask+Thoughtseize as additional Disruption/enablers.
    As shitty as that all sounds, it wasn't.
    In response...Hypothek!

  9. #9
    shallow
    .dk's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2010
    Location

    denver, co
    Posts

    1,008

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher View Post
    I played against a pretty similar deck just that it cut blue entireley and played Emrakul, Infernal Contract, Lake of the dead (which was a beast in the games) and Unmask+Thoughtseize as additional Disruption/enablers.
    As shitty as that all sounds, it wasn't.
    That sounds pretty cool. How else other than entomb was it getting creatures in the yard? I feel like I'd really miss Careful Study by cutting blue. Also sounds like it may have been a little more "all-in" on the combo turn. One of the things I like about this build is that a good chunk of it's protection is it's redundancy - if your reanimation effect is disrupted, there's a good chance that you can go off again the following turn by using your cantrip suite to find more.

  10. #10
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher View Post
    I played against a pretty similar deck just that it cut blue entireley and played Emrakul, Infernal Contract, Lake of the dead (which was a beast in the games) and Unmask+Thoughtseize as additional Disruption/enablers.
    As shitty as that all sounds, it wasn't.
    How was it getting enough Griselbrand activations playing Infernal Contract and Thoughtseize?
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  11. #11

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    While the base does look very lean, it actually plays very nicely. You only need the land for 1 turn, 2 at the most. It's very glass cannon and in all the games I've played, wasteland has never been an issue. What ended up hurting me the most was either Spell Snare or Stony Silence. Mine was built on the intention of trying to get as high a turn 1 rate as possible while maintaining a little reliability.

  12. #12
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Ah, so the Belcher plan. Really this deck plays a bit like Belcher, if Belcher could go off with a full hand and had 12 cantrips.

    I'm still not really sold on the SB, I think there are probably better ways to play around grave hate post board, but don't really have time to test anything right now.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  13. #13
    shallow
    .dk's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2010
    Location

    denver, co
    Posts

    1,008

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Rocked this pile of awesomeness to Day 2 and 86th place overall at GP Atlanta today. I'll post my exact list, tournament report, and some thoughts soon.

  14. #14
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I don't know if the significance of someone taking an untested deck they've never played to 10-5 at a GP is really sinking in or not, but this deck is the real deal. Rather than talk about the advantages it has over other storm decks though, I'd like to address its weaknesses.

    Basically, game 1 is almost an auto-win. Some well-timed counters or a Thalia can get in your way, but generally you have a 0-3 turn clock that's extremely resilient. The major issue is that the deck can be attacked from a couple angles: grave hate and storm hate. The original plan was to go all storm because there's just less storm hate out there right now (canonist and teeg really). That plan worked for Atlanta but it's admittedly janky and less good the more people know about it. The way we see it at this point, we have a few different board options:

    -Transformational to storm: IT, LED, discard, rituals - dodges grave hate, but just a watered down ANT

    -Transformational to Reanimator: more targets, permanent reanimation spells - arguably better vs. Maverick, but so much grave hate

    -Show and Tell: SnT, counters, Pithing Needle for Karakas/Maze? - far less redundancy, requires SnT + Grizzle in hand = more variance

    -Man Plan: Tombstalker, Delver, Clique, etc. - dodges most grave/storm hate, but not a lot of dudes in a removal-heavy meta

    -Reactionary: Bounce, Virtue's Ruin/Massacre, Pithing Needle, counters, etc. - the primary plan is so strong it would be nice to stick with it, but the list is so tight it's hard to bring in any protection without watering it down.

    If anyone can think of anything else, chime in. Unfortunately grave hate is in everyone's board right now, so the main strategy gets a lot tougher after game 1. The problem is that everything just feels shitty compared to drawing 21 cards on turn 1.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  15. #15

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I would say the SnT plan is probably best. Look at how reanimator deals with graveyard hate. I don't know exactly what .dk's list was, but Emrakul + SnT out of the board might not be a bad idea at all. You can have a full on transformation plan kinda like (assuming you add 2 or 3 Volcanic Island to the maindeck):

    -3 Shallow Grave
    -4 Goyro's Vengeance
    -4 Entomb
    -3 Tendrils
    + 4 Emrakul
    + 4 SnT
    +4 Sneak Attack
    + 2 other (some kind of other protection spell I'd imagine)

    The biggest issue I see with this plan is that it takes up so much sideboard space, and that Karakas and Needle still mess with you. Although the strengths are that you completely dodge grave and storm hate, and have a little more protection. Sure, careful study is worse, but it might be an avenue worth exploring if grave and storm hate are your biggest fears.

  16. #16
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Another interesting strategy. I agree though that anything transformational leaves you with no slots for anti-hate. The ANT board actually worked pretty well most of the time in ATL, but things like Thalia and Chalice mess with both strategies, and there are just times you wish you had some bounce or a Massacre or something.

    Note that another option I forgot to mention is to bring in Cabal Rits and go for hardcasting Grizz. This could possibly work with a Show and Tell Package, boarding out reanimation effects and Tendrils and going for a 3-turn clock. Any strategy that isn't planning on winning the turn he comes into play needs to pack a lot of protection for him though. I am toying around with something like:

    4 Show and Tell
    4 Force of Will
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Misdirection/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/etc.
    2 Cabal Ritual

    Admittedly Cabal Rit looks like the weakest link there, and every time I want more of something, that's where I start cutting. I just hate the idea of going from a deck that's super redundant to one that needs one each of two 4-ofs to win. Not sure if Pithing needle is correct, but with Karakas and Maze seeing play, it seems pretty necessary.

    Another option I was thinking of if we're just going for the Onion Burst (TM) kill every game, is to just run Abeyance or City of Solitude along with bounce and/or sweepers like Virtue's Ruin, and hope to set up a combo turn. Of course then we're back to the issue of what to take out of a list that can sometimes whiff on 21 cards (granted you're almost always in perfect position to win the next turn, but it's never a risk you want to take).
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  17. #17

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    If you are Entombing, you should probably have a singular Past in Flames.

    Careful Study/Entomb + Chrome Mox is a ton of card disadvantage. You may consider replacing the moxen with Cabal Ritual and the Careful Study with Thought Scour. It's less hand optimization, but it's card neutral. And it plays better with Show and Tell from the board.

    If you want a 5th Griselbrand, Magus of the Jar is a possible replacement.

    Shallow Grave is much better than Goryo's Vengeance because you can cast it and crack LED in response.
    Magic Level 3 Judge
    Southern USA Regional Coordinator

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

  18. #18
    Member
    Wanderlust's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    Boulder, CO
    Posts

    221

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    This deck is like a much improved version of Jar Tendrils (Shallow Grave + Magus of the Jar Storm)! After playing a few games with Richard Cheese's list from the OP against RUG Tempo, I felt like my biggest complaint was not having enough blue cards to pitch to Force of Will/Chrome Mox. I think Anusien's idea of adding Magus of the Jar (probably 1 or 2) is worth testing - it ups the blue count and makes Careful Study relevant more often.
    Imperial Baubleman

  19. #19
    Just call me Dick.
    Richard Cheese's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Location

    Your mom's house.
    Posts

    2,118

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I get the thing about FoW, and we've already cut it from the main list. I need to go back and update the primer, but I'd like to do a decent job at it and don't really have time to generate the numbers for matchup analysis, etc. Basically the deck looks like the original list, but with the reanimation split favoring Shallow Grave (old borders + no targeting = win), and Duress over Force, or possibly a 3/1 Duress/Inquisition split. The board is the same, but with IoK over Duress, so postboard you have a more standard 7 discard effects for ANT.

    @Anusien - PiF is really unnecessary here, you generally don't need to go over 7 storm, which has never been a problem. The single most common reason for whiffing after reanimating is missing the mana sources to cast Tendrils, or not finding Tendrils. The first is the reason why I've chosen Chrome Mox over Cabal Rit. Running without LED makes the deck super resilient to counters, but also means we need extra 0-cmc mana sources. While they are card disadvantage, you usually have so many cards in hand that it isn't a problem. Additionally, once you've connected and drawn 14-21, Entomb and Careful Study are basically dead. Even if you do have to pass the turn, you're likely discarding another Grizzlebee or two to set up the next turn, so you can imprint those two all day. The deck goes off on so little mana, that casting Chrome Mox before the combo turn is just unnecessary.

    Thought scour really doesn't make sense over Careful Study, as it doesn't really serve the same purpose of getting Grizz in the yard unless you set it up with Brainstorm.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  20. #20
    shallow
    .dk's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2010
    Location

    denver, co
    Posts

    1,008

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    My report from Atlanta is here:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...animator-Storm)

    tldr, here is what I ran:


    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    2 Swamp
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Careful Study
    4 Duress
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Tendrils of Agony


    Sideboard:

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Infernal Tutor
    3 Cabal Ritual
    1 Ad Nauseum
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek


    No bounce, derp. If I did it again, would run 3 Duress, 1 Inquisition main, 1 inquisition, 2 chain of vapor board.

    I'm personally leaning towards the sideboard tact of reactionary to hate, along with some discard spells. I'm actually also really leaning hard towards 4 cabal therapy main, and 3 chain of vapor in the board, but I haven't yet tested that, so I'm not sure. Along with some combination of sweepers and such, and maybe Pull from Eternity as well. Not sure, honestly.

    I will say this - whenever I boarded into Ad Nauseum, the deck felt like a dog. Even the times that I went off T1 or T2 with Ad Nauseum, it felt SO much worse than the Griselbrand plan. It's just THAT powerful. To the point where I wish I could reliably speed the deck up without losing consistency. That's probably the best plan of all. You go off turn 1, and if you're disrupted then who cares - just do it again on T2. Read my Round 8 matchup and you might understand what I mean...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)