[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Acclimation]

New to the deck, been playing around with a few builds. My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can, a) because it's flashy and b) because that minimizes the time for my opponents to play hate.

This is the list I'm working on:

1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites

4 Entomb
4 Ponder
2 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask

2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

//SB:
1 Meltdown
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Burning Wish
1 Exhume
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Collective Brutality

The one thing that's still bothering me is that I'd like to fit gitaxian probe and maybe the last two brainstorms in, but I'm not sure where to make room for them.

Either way, will probably be taking something close to this to the CFB grand re-opening this weekend.

Had to do some digging, but the list in this post from a little over a year ago was one of the most consistent t1-2 lists we've created in the last few years. Going back a bit further, .dk and I found that Chrome Mox was negligible in ensuring kills, as the fizzle rate was similar (like decimal places differences) between 1 Mox and 0 mox. 2 Mox was definitely overkill, since the card disadvantage was a bit rough, especially with Unmask. If I were to play Tin Fins right now, I'd take this list, cut the Chrome Mox for a Lim-Dul's Vault (really good at ensuring t3 kills), and do 3 Unmask, 4 Cabal Therapy.

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
3 Unmask

1 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

As a personal preference, I don't like Exhume in these lists, because I really like winning the turn I get Griselbrand on the field, but that's 100% personal preference. I know people have been having success with Burning Wish builds, and they're still pretty quick, so definitely jam the list and report back. And check out our thread in New & Developing (Bizarro Stormy) if you want more Griselbrand action, it's a similar shell that's a lot better at achieving t1 kills, albeit with a bit lower rate.

[scottpou]

As a personal preference, I don't like Exhume in these lists...

The non-targetting with Silent Gravestone just like Bizarro is just very strong, plus some matchups I don't mind a slow grissle beat down. The 1B vs 2B on exhume vs corpse dance sometimes makes a difference even if it is 7 less cards.

[alastair]

My goal is mostly to get as many turn ones as I can, a) because it's flashy and b) because that minimizes the time for my opponents to play hate.

I’ve found 4x Careful Study with 4x Reanimate to be the fastest UB build (12 land + 2 Mox, 10 Reanimate, 6 discard). Unfortunately there is a real cost; a less reliable same turn kill when you often don’t have the land drop, or life loss to Reanimate, or Combat Step life gain. I play TinFin (Shallow + Goryo's) as I don’t want to offer the untap.

RB is just better if you want to make a permanent threat and kill in 2-3 turns. If you want flashy Turn 1.... play SI, deck is just a lovely little puzzle.

Either way, have fun.

[Acclimation]

The non-targetting with Silent Gravestone just like Bizarro is just very strong, plus some matchups I don't mind a slow grissle beat down. The 1B vs 2B on exhume vs corpse dance sometimes makes a difference even if it is 7 less cards.

Good point. I played Exhume a little over a year ago, and didn't care for it, since I'm the type of person that wants to win as soon as that Griselbrand hits the field. Silent Gravestone definitely changes the game up a bit.

[scottpou]

I'm the type of person that wants to win as soon as that Griselbrand hits the field

I agree 100% because that is my opinion as well! I need to start recording all my matches and uploading (same as the bizarro and DDFT google doc). I have been fizzling less and less with every version even with Exhume.

[Zavec]

Silent gravestone was what I was thinking of for the most part, goryo's also doesn't hit children of korlis.

On the other hand, exhume has the problem that your opponent gets to reanimate something too. So if something happens like you used a massacre to kill mom+thalia, they get their thalia back and you need to kill it again.

If I see any HP ones online I'll probably pick them up, just so I have the option one way or another.

[.dk]

Exhume isn't the worst - although that card might actually want to push back towards Chrome Mox. Since you won't be able to draw as many cards, you'll have a harder time finding an IMS when combo-ing out to be able to make Emrakul or Kids. Probably just need to gather data on draw 14's, and what THOSE fizzle rates are with 0, 1, and 2 Chrome Mox, similar to what Acclimation and I did a couple of years ago.

[Jblinder]

Exhume isn't the worst - although that card might actually want to push back towards Chrome Mox. Since you won't be able to draw as many cards, you'll have a harder time finding an IMS when combo-ing out to be able to make Emrakul or Kids. Probably just need to gather data on draw 14's, and what THOSE fizzle rates are with 0, 1, and 2 Chrome Mox, similar to what Acclimation and I did a couple of years ago.

Exhume lists typically run LED. Most seem to be running 3 which I view as a mistake. Card is busted. It also happens to solve the IMS problem nicely.

I think if you’re not running LED then goryos is the better spell, and I don’t know if access to silent gravestone alone is enough to change that. It might be. I still think exhume is begging you to play LED though.

In my Living wish depth fins list if I go petal land exhume, crack LED floating BBB I almost never fizzle on the full combo. The BBB in the pool is actually as valuable as a draw 7 since you’re no longer bottlenecked on having to draw a Petal. It doesn’t hurt that in addition to entomb children/shallow grave (OR exhume) I can also do things like petal, living wish for children of korlis thoughtseize myself Exhume. Or petal, led, living wish crack LED For www cast children.

Turn 1 dark ritual/entomb/exhume with no led does fizzle a fair amount. As a consolation prize your griselbrand sticks around. When they have thalia or Leo in the graveyard it can be awkward as well. There are obviously trade offs. But I think Silent gravestone is well worth it, and I think the raw power of LED is also a boon and adds to turn 1 wins. Think about how many more turn 1s are in the deck.

Normal fins has dark ritual/entomb/shallow grave or goryo, dark ritual/self discard griselbrand with ct or ts, or occasionally unmask with ritual or petal.

Led builds still have all those turn 1s, but also ritual or petal + exhume/shallow + led + griselbrand, or ritual/petal + griselbrand/unburial + Led + entomb. Or ritual + double entomb + Led (assuming you run 1 unburial which I also think is a mistake not to in Led builds) . My build even has nonsense like petal, land, led, dark ritual, living wish for griselbrand, exhume sac led. Or petal+ritual+double led+living wish to hardcast gris from the sideboard. Most of those are one card requirement or more tougher than the classic ritual/entomb/reanimate but they really do add up! And those lines add up even more for turn 2 wins.

[.dk]

Exhume lists typically run LED. Most seem to be running 3 which I view as a mistake. Card is busted. It also happens to solve the IMS problem nicely.

I think if you’re not running LED then goryos is the better spell, and I don’t know if access to silent gravestone alone is enough to change that. It might be. I still think exhume is begging you to play LED though.

In my Living wish depth fins list if I go petal land exhume, crack LED floating BBB I almost never fizzle on the full combo. The BBB in the pool is actually as valuable as a draw 7 since you’re no longer bottlenecked on having to draw a Petal. It doesn’t hurt that in addition to entomb children/shallow grave (OR exhume) I can also do things like petal, living wish for children of korlis thoughtseize myself Exhume. Or petal, led, living wish crack LED For www cast children.

Turn 1 dark ritual/entomb/exhume with no led does fizzle a fair amount. As a consolation prize your griselbrand sticks around. When they have thalia or Leo in the graveyard it can be awkward as well. There are obviously trade offs. But I think Silent gravestone is well worth it, and I think the raw power of LED is also a boon and adds to turn 1 wins. Think about how many more turn 1s are in the deck.

Normal fins has dark ritual/entomb/shallow grave or goryo, dark ritual/self discard griselbrand with ct or ts, or occasionally unmask with ritual or petal.

Led builds still have all those turn 1s, but also ritual or petal + exhume/shallow + led + griselbrand, or ritual/petal + griselbrand/unburial + Led + entomb. Or ritual + double entomb + Led (assuming you run 1 unburial which I also think is a mistake not to in Led builds) . My build even has nonsense like petal, land, led, dark ritual, living wish for griselbrand, exhume sac led. Or petal+ritual+double led+living wish to hardcast gris from the sideboard. Most of those are one card requirement or more tougher than the classic ritual/entomb/reanimate but they really do add up! And those lines add up even more for turn 2 wins.

Yeah, that's a fair point. If you're running Exhume, LED should 100% be included. And if you're running Wishes of any sort, then it needs to be a 4 of. Your reasoning is solid and I agree. If Silent Gravestone is good and you're playing this deck, then you probably want Exhume over Goryo's. Or you want to be playing Corpse Dance and Magus of the Mind... ;)

[scottpou]

And if you're running Wishes of any sort, then it needs to be a 4 of.

I'm still trying to figure out 3 or 4. I want the 4, but finding that slot is difficult.

[Jblinder]

I'm still trying to figure out 3 or 4. I want the 4, but finding that slot is difficult.

For your deck we have discussed these two configurations:

4 cabal therapy
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
2 probe

And

2 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
2 probe


I’d probably play:

3 thoughtseize
1 cabal therapy
2 collective brutality
2 unmask
1 probe
(4th led)

Cutting the second probe makes some sense to me, as it is a card with diminishing returns (paying 2 life to cycle when you know their hand already sucks) and makes mulligan decisions tougher. Play one and it’s an occasional nice luxury—“cool, i get to see what’s up this game”—but doesn’t become a liability that having 2 in your opener often will be, even if it’s rare.

Cutting a probe makes the therapy a tiny bit worse and frees up another slot for a life loss card in thoughtseize.

I’ve written about it long ago somewhere but I think good legacy players tend to overrate cabal therapy.
It’s a card that definitely rewards format knowledge and recognition of “what matters” in a matchup. It feels insanely good to name the right card and hit—not to mention hitting multiples! It’s a card that gets us high.

But is it the best card for the job?

The argument usually goes something like “name the card that beats you; if they have it, you win and if they don’t have it you win.” The problem with the oversimplification, especially post board is that there are a variety of cards that actually beat you in many situations, and when we are trying to combo as early as turn one or two we don’t have a lot of room to deduce which of these they have. Another problem with the oversimplification is that, well, it’s an oversimplification. Sometimes you thoughtseize and the best card in their hand is a ponder. You’re in great shape even with a therapy whiffing in that spot, but that ponder absolutely matters. That card could decide the game (not to mention when it’s a more impactful card like a thoughtseize of their own).

4 probes and a slightly slower plan like you see in ANT? Sign me up for some CT.

I don’t think non-blue versions of Fins want to be probe decks (1, 2 max is fine). brainstorm + ponder versions it’s better as our the quality of our hand is less dependent on what we immediately see since we dig so much deeper. Even in those decks space is often too tight to fit the full four. And without the “training wheels” I don’t think therapy is better than thoughtseize even for skilled players with high format knowledge.

Whew. Trying to find a cut for an LED in your list just got me raving about cabal therapy again. Lol. I also realized just now that probes might be more necessary in the Doomsday plan. I always forget that you’re transforming and don’t have enough doomsday knowledge to appreciate some of those nuances. If it’s necessary, ignore, but my rant stands!

Side note on LED since I’m obviously very high on it: I do think shaving them post board vs blue decks is usually right. When Gravestone comes in for blue matchups, for instance, my default cuts are -2 LED -1 unburial rites. But pre board when it’s just force of will to contend with and not FOW + surgical I think the raw power of LED is just awesome, and raw power is kind of what Tin Fins is about.

[scottpou]

I’d probably play: 3 thoughtseize 1 cabal therapy

The more I test this (I was actually on this the past couple of days), the more I think this is the correct decision. I have even entombed a therapy to flashback in a match. Plus leaving 1 in the main for DD piles is helpful.

... Sometimes you thoughtseize and the best card in their hand is a ponder. You’re in great shape even with a therapy whiffing in that spot, but that ponder absolutely matters. That card could decide the game...

I agree 100% and was a reason I ran 0 Cabal Therapy at the SCG Worcester Open.

I don’t think non-blue versions of Fins want to be probe decks

Again, I agree with you completely.

... without the “training wheels” I don’t think therapy is better than thoughtseize even for skilled players with high format knowledge.

Preach brotha, preach!

probes might be more necessary in the Doomsday plan. I always forget that you’re transforming and don’t have enough doomsday knowledge to appreciate some of those nuances. If it’s necessary, ignore, but my rant stands!

Unfortunately they are necessary for a couple lines of play/protection with DD. However, that does not diminish the validity of your rant!

... I think the raw power of LED is just awesome, and raw power is kind of what Tin Fins is about.

I also think LED's raw https://goo.gl/1mfMWw is what TinFins is about.


My current Burning DoomFins (Reactive)

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper or 1 (Pick 2) Collective Brutality/Gamble/Thoughtseize)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Stronghold Gambit)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Reanimate)
1 Shelldock Isle (Flex)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Flex)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

I keep both DD and Reactive options sleeved for play and decide on which based on mood, quantity and quality of competitors, and sobriety.

And remember! https://goo.gl/k9iD4N

[.dk]

The more I test this (I was actually on this the past couple of days), the more I think this is the correct decision. I have even entombed a therapy to flashback in a match. Plus leaving 1 in the main for DD piles is helpful.


I agree 100% and was a reason I ran 0 Cabal Therapy at the SCG Worcester Open.


Again, I agree with you completely.


Preach brotha, preach!


Unfortunately they are necessary for a couple lines of play/protection with DD. However, that does not diminish the validity of your rant!


I also think LED's raw https://goo.gl/1mfMWw is what TinFins is about.


My current Burning DoomFins (Reactive)

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper or 1 (Pick 2) Collective Brutality/Gamble/Thoughtseize)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Stronghold Gambit)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Reanimate)
1 Shelldock Isle (Flex)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Flex)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Collective Brutality
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

I keep both DD and Reactive options sleeved for play and decide on which based on mood, quantity and quality of competitors, and sobriety.

And remember! https://goo.gl/k9iD4N

I really like the idea of Night's Whisper in your list. Without the blue cantrip suite, it's probably the next best thing, and will help you against discard people will tend to bring in against you. I could also see 1 Night's Whisper and the 3rd Unmask in that 2-of slot as well.

Another crazy option if it's just a 1 of... Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain? You're running Children of Korlis already, and is a great draw spell into Doomsday piles too.

[scottpou]

I could also see 1 Night's Whisper and the 3rd Unmask in that 2-of slot as well. Another crazy option if it's just a 1 of... Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain?

I'm gonna test 3rd Unmask and 1 Infernal Contact/Cruel Bargain vs 2 Night's Whispers. I really, really like the idea of 1 IC/CB, but those 2 cantrips on not 1 mana usually do good work. *cough* chalice *cough*. I'm playing with my buddy tonight, will test, and report later.

[scottpou]

To continue my thoughts after viewing the awesome sister thread of Bizzaro, what about 1 Past in Flames and 1 IC/CB to add to the fun?

[scottpou]

Tested some games this week. The 4th LED and Past in Flames were win more even seperately. I still want the 4th LED though. So, I'm going to test -1 Unmask +1 LED this week and see how it goes. At times I was at 1 CT, 4 TS, and 3 Unmask, but I missed having the interaction with Collective Brutality especially with mulligans on the draw. I still want to test Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract more, but they did not pan out this week. Burning wish into artifact and/or creature removal game 1 has been so relieving. I hate Thorn of Amethyst in Eldrazi's main.

Current Burning DoomFins (Reactive):

4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis

4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites
4 Burning Wish
4 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Unmask
2 Gitaxian Probe (2 Night's Whisper)

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Mine (Badlands)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs


// DD Sideboard (Reactive)

4 Doomsday (Silent Gravestone)
1 Act on Impulse (Reanimate)
1 Laboratory Maniac (Empty the Warrens)
1 Shelldock Isle (Chainer's Edict)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Toxic Deluge)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Massacre
1 By Force
1 Reverent Silence

[scottpou]

Had a few beverages and stayed up way later than I should have last night. Ran into a game where I wasn't able to storm out, but it wasn't due to mana. So I swapped 1 Burning Wish and 1 Lab Man in the main/sideboard DD build. I am enjoying the other out in gold fishing this morning.

[militiaman89]

Does anyone has a sideboard guide for the living wish version? Im newer to the deck and am unsure how to properly board with it. Any help would be appreciated.

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[Jblinder]

Does anyone has a sideboard guide for the living wish version? Im newer to the deck and am unsure how to properly board with it. Any help would be appreciated.

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I actually have a full primer written up on Living Fins. It’s still a work in progress but it’s almost done.

In section 2 I lay out most of the possible sideboard choices, along with my current sideboard. Section 4 is the matchup guide, with sideboarding plans.

Here is a link:

https://bit.ly/2sFbHAF

[.dk]

Wow, nice write up!