4 Griselbrand
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Island
SB: 4 Pact of Negation
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Silence
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Wipe Away
Still figuring if Pact of Negation is the right choice. It can help establish a fast combo, but if it bricks it will completely fail. It might only help on a turn 1 combo where it can stop a FoW. In this case Daze can be just as sufficient. But Daze becomes less usable as turns pass. You just have to be freaking sure that you can support the combo with only one, maybe two Pacts. So the information from Probe and Discard becomes so incredably important. Going in blind with a Pact is suicide.
Anyway. Daze can be a real solid choice for fast plays. Looking at the list posted above i would make the following adjustments on the main. Disconcerning the SB.
-1 Griselbrand
-2 Thoughtseize
(-1 Cabal Therapy)
+3 Daze
(+1 Intuition) <- dispite its casting cost it still adds some valuable flexibility
The choices between the minor details of this deck make me walk in circles. Every choice has its pros and cons. It feels like there is a missing link that would make this deck consistant. Maybe we have to accept there is nothing that can make this deck any more powerfull.
Bobmans - if you're flat-out going for speed, I think you have to include some careful study. You can trim on the 8 discard spells maybe.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Can someone that plays the probe-list answer this:
Is the ANT SB plan completely of the map?
I don't like dilluting the combo post SB, so prefer to completely switch gears after boarding. But the current list I'm playing is a non-probe list and that list is far for ideal to do this. I'm thinking something along the lines of: -4 Grisel, -4 Entomb, -4 Shallow, -3 Goryo for 4 LED, 4 Cabal Rit, 4 IT, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 silence.
Tin Fins just forced me to create an account. ;)
After winning our local tournament with the deck last week, I decided to take it to a GP Trial for Strasbourg today. It didn’t end so well.
That’s what I played:
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Silence
2 Massacre
3 Wipe Away
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pull from Eternity
The 3 Wipe Aways are just for Counterbalance. My Gemstone Mines didn’t arrive in time so I couldn’t splash green for Abrupt Decay. Luckily, there was not a single UW player in the room.
Match 1: Goblins (2:0)
G1: I took a mulligan to 5 and held Shallow Grave, Brainstorm, Ponder and 2 lands. He had a slow start and I killed him in turn 3 or 4.
G2: I destroyed his hand with Probe and double Therapy. When he fetched for a Plateau, I had a Massacre. Killed him around turn 5.
Match 2: Sneak and Show (1:2)
G1: I kept a somewhat mediocre hand and could not kill him before he sneaked in an Emrakul. The good thing was that I did not show him any Entombs or reanimation spells, so he just boarded against Storm Combo.
G2: He put me on Storm and did not have any graveyard hate. I had more reanimation spells than he had permission.
G3: He correctly played the control game and kept a hand full of counterspells and Tormod’s Crypts. When I played a Probe, he revealed Daze, FoW, 2x Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce and had 2 Crypts in Play. That was a bit too much to go off.
Match 3: Junk (1:2)
G1: I won the die roll, probed him and then killed him turn 1.
G2: He started with an Inquisition of Kozilek (taking my only reanimation spell) and played an Ethersworn Canonist afterwards. Then he put some pressure on me with KotR and Bob. I had 2 Griselbrands in my graveyard. Since I was on a short clock and he took a lot of damage from Bob (revealing Mindbreak Trap), my plan was to hit him with Griselbrand two times, racing his Knight. Then I screwed up. I didn’t notice that he played a Karakas the turn before and ran right into it. With a Pithing Needle in Hand… -.-
G3: Game 3 was similar. He had Deathrite Shaman, Canonist and Knight. That slowed me down enough.
Match 4: Mono U Faery Control (0:2)
Both games I basically mulled into oblivion and could not get through his wall of counterspells.
Match 5: Goblins (2:1)
G1: 1st turn Kill.
G2: I mulled to a mediocre 5 and he kept a fast opening 7.
G3: 2nd turn Kill.
Thoughts:
- Probe was good evertime I drew it. It helps playing around Wasteland, permission and combos with Therapy. It doesn’t really help with our consistency issues though.
- Sometimes, the deck just mulls into oblivion. The good thing is that you can just destroy the opponent with five cards.
- I made some horrible mistakes during sideboarding. Forgetting Massacre in G2 against Junk, not boarding Needle against Sneak and Show and stuff like that.
- I think a single Children of Korlis is enough. It reduces the amount of awkward draws and I never fizzled once I comboed off. Same for my goldfish games at home.
- I’d love to play additional discard or maindeck Silence, but I don’t think there is enough room. Maybe I’ll cut a Chrome Mox in the future.
- The Junk matchup seems to be pretty tough, maybe worse than Jund. Discard, Deathrite and white hatebears are just aweful.
- I’m not sure if I want Careful Study. In traditional Reanimator, I play it over Ponder, but Tin Fins probably plays too few creatures to discard. There were some situations where I wanted to use the discard as disruption but couldn’t because I needed it to get a Griselbrand in the grave and had no Studies.
When I came home, the Gemstone Mines were in the mail. I’ll test a build with Decay in the board on our local tournament tomorrow. It seems that I have to play against Counter Top every time I’m there. The deck will probably look like this:
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
1 Children of Korlis
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
2 Gemstone Mine
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pull from Eternity
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
Cut a Land, maxed out the Probes.
Hey folks, i also played the deck in a Grand Prix Trial today and didn't do so well either. But i have to admit i never was so happy with a 3:3 because it's such an amazing deck and people who didn't know it yet were everything from amused to totally shocked what's possible in Legacy these days... :-)
Loam Pox
Game 1: Keep a risky hand of zero mana but rituals. He tries to get rid of my hand with LftL and Raven's Crime 3x on 2nd or 3rd turn, but that didn't help. Finally i drew a land and win on turn 3 or something.
Game 2: Don't remember, but was an easy win since he didn't have many outs...
2-0
1-0
Stoneblade
Game 1: I mulliganed aggresively but wasn't rewarded.
Game 2: Game was close. Therapied him naming Spell Pierce and he revealed Flusterstorm and Brainstorm. So i had to wait a turn to play around flusterstorm. Resulting him in getting FoW through Brainstorm and i had no Reanimation spell left. If i name Brainstorm with Therapy i could have won... Maybe i misplayed here, but this is a really shitty matchup. Much Discard, Countespells, Snapcasters, Swords and random Karakas already in maindeck. Ugh.
0-2
1-1
Nic Fit
My hands were bad both games and he has his combo that beats mine twice: Veteran Explorer + Therapy and Veteran Explorer + Double Therapy + Extraction after boarding. But i really should not loose this... :-/
0-2
1-2
Merfolk
1 Game: Turn 1 Win, i had Therapy as Backup.
2 Game: Turn 1 Win.
2-0
2-2
Junk
Game 1: He gets a Confi going and get's some discard online. Couldn't recover from that.
Game 2: He Surgical Extracted me and add's a Chalice on 2 to the board. Really didn't see this coming and just can not win anymore because i boarded in 2x Echoing Truth. Ouch...
0-2
2-3
Junk (again)
1 Game: He has Deathrite Shaman and add's a second one to the battlefield using his only green source. Thanks. :-)
2 Game: I guess i got Surgical Extracted once more...
3 Game: I have the kill in hand for some turns but his board is 2x Deathrites and a cannonist. Could get rid of them with Massacre but would loose to Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. When he drops a Gaddok Teeg i bounce it at end of turn and wipe the board with Massacre to save some life for Grisel. A turn later i finally drew the Discard spell for his Extirpate and win.
2-1
3-3
The list i played was ok, but i'd change some things if i were to play the deck again.
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul
2x Children of Korlis
4x Shallow Grave
4x Goryo's Vengeance
1x Reanimate
4x Entomb
4x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Unmask
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
Sideboard
2x Pull from Eternity
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Pithing Needle
1x Unmask
2x Massacre
- First of all i'd add the 4th Ponder to get even more consistency. Really liked it when i saw it.
- The single Unmask was really nice sometimes but maybe is not needed with already 8 superior discard spells. In theory it combo's well with Pull but maybe that's a too janky kind of entomb replacement....
- The 2nd Children of Korlis is not neccessary. There was once a situation which could have hurt if i had only one in the deck but that was absolutely avoidable: I was in combo mode and wanted to make sure, that i can activate Grisel 2 more times in case my opponent has swords to plowshares. So i played Children of Korlis from my hand first. After that i wanted to Shallow the Grisel into play but his response was Swords on my Children... Dumb. This happens if you get too greedy with the deck, hehe....
Changes i would make to the deck would include changing the 2nd children to the 4th Ponder. Emrakul i can see in the board since i never really needed it in the first game. Why we need it in the main again ? Do i miss something here... ? Also i think i will go back from the 4th Goryo's Vengeance to the 2nd Reanimate just for the speed. The Unmask i will leave in just for testing, but i can see it becoming Silence, Probe, Preordain...
Sideboarding:
The board was okish. Massacre is a damn house. Needle i rarely used but you want at least 2 depending on what other hate for Shaman you have. The bounce is just good, no further comment needed. After that Chalice on 2 stuff i will stick with Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth for a while... No real opinion about Pull since i never drew it when i needed it and drew it if i could do nothing with it. Will keep at least 1 in the board and see how it goes. Unmask will get something better like suggested silence which should solve a lot of problems. At least that's what it looks on paper.
I will add liliana of the veil (maindeck) and Show and tell post-side gameplan, Liliana destroy opponent´s hand and hatebears, discard our creatures too. Ultimatum is an option Vs Counterbalance and control decks.
Only one Children of Korlis is testeable. Entomb is the way.
Last edited by atopebenidorm; 03-03-2013 at 05:19 AM.
I've been thinking about adding a singleton Rain of Filth to the deck for dark ritual number 5 while comboing off.
thoughts?
Because we generally want to go off so early and run very few lands, I think that a singleton Cabal Ritual would be better than Rain of Filth. Rain is also very all in as well so if you get a piece countered post sacrificing lands, you're pretty much done for the game.
Could see Cabal Ritual replacing a Chrome Mox though, potentially, if that is something that we need.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Watching Koby hardcast Emrakul on cam. #winning
Grats Koby @ X-1 at the moment at SCG Vegas. Nice job going infinite! :D
Looks like Koby should hopefully make Top 8 with TinFins. For those who missed it he had a match on Camera for Round 7 vs. Pox.
Seeing Koby go infinite on turn 2 on camera and showboating on his way to the top 8 for us fans was awesome. Take it down!
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Tin Fins in the finals!!!
Stoked to see the deck perform.
Sadly, I don't have my shallow graves :/ How much were they before the jump?
NVM: checked completed list on ebay.
Great, now I have to stay up!
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
They just started reading a Sealab 2021 episode recap. So... that happened.
Roll Tide!
Ok so that was worth staying up for.
Bad beats facing UW in the last round, that matchup is just abysmal. Great job otherwise though...hope everyone got their Shallow Graves already.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Goodjob Koby ^^
it's sad you have nothing in board for CB top :(
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