[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Acclimation]

Where I'm at right now:

• Unmask sounds like a dope card to play
• I want some number of chrome mox
• I don't own green duals, so Abrupt Decay/Reverent Silence aren't an option for me. I remember playing a version at the milwaukee open in early 2013 that played these cards (barely missed top 32 if i remember correctly) and I preferred Serenity more after the STL open. I think if you got them, it's worth testing, but I'm not going to do so do to personal card availability. Not a competitive mindset, but I make do with what I have.
• I'm thinking a version that wants to combo faster probably needs 1-2 more Griselbrand than the standard list

1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
4 Unmask

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Delta
4 Flats
3 USea
1 Tundra
1 Scrub
1 Swamp

[Jblinder]

Yeah, wasn't sure on Careful Study - hence only 2. You might be right - I haven't goldfished that list at all, much less played a game. But I do think running 4 Griselbrands has merit to decrease dependency on Entomb. Maybe you run 3 Ponder and 1 LDV or something. That might not be awful.

@Kai - Unmask does become a bit attractive when running 4 Griselbrands. Seems likely that you'll have extra black cards to pitch. I think I would personally rather run 4 Therapy, 3 Unmask, 0 Thoughtseize, and the grip of Probes myself though. Also, I think instead of island, you just want another Underground Sea. Tundra doesn't do much without a fair number of white cards in the board - would rather just protect against wasteland by overloading on Seas. Also, if you're running Bayou already for Decay, might as well add Reverent Silence and City of Solitude to that list of possibilities.

City of solitude is/was definitely on my short list. As a player new to legacy I wasn't aware reverent silence existed. I think it def makes my board. Maybe even 2.

In my experience careful study has been very good as a 2-off in the main. If you're playing 4 griselbrand, give at least 1 copy a try. The upside on the card is unreal. In most games where you draw a griselbrand the card is better than entomb, which says a lot...Of course there are games where a key spell gets force of willed and you're resource-light. In those spots you wish you had a ponder instead. On balance I think it's a worthwhile inclusion.

I'm interested to know if others have the same experience with unmask that I have had (it's just been awesome for me). For those who try it let us know if it feels good to be unmasking.

[Jblinder]

@ acclimation.

I really like that list. I'd probably go -1 ponder +1 careful study. I might just try this exact list with that change. Abrupt decay does offer resiliency, which does decide games (and is black for unmask), but for purely combing as fast as possible your list is where I'd want to be.

Maybe someone could help me come around to therapy over TS. obviously I get that probe + therapy is fantastic (and if I were playing a full set of probes I'd certainly run them). But still, in sideboard games where there is such a diverse set of answers I've gotten blown out where if I just had a ts I could take their one relevant interaction and when I whiff with therapy it's game losing. I feel like it's sort of like the ponder/careful study dynamic where one is higher upside and one is more reliable, but in this case I haven't found the upside to be worth the drawback. In sideboard games, where they are packing so much hate, you really can't afford to whiff, imo. But I'll concede I just might not have the art of therapy down yet!

[Acclimation]

@ acclimation.

I really like that list. I'd probably go -1 ponder +1 careful study. I might just try this exact list with that change. Abrupt decay does offer resiliency, which does decide games (and is black for unmask), but for purely combing as fast as possible your list is where I'd want to be.

Maybe someone could help me come around to therapy over TS. obviously I get that probe + therapy is fantastic (and if I were playing a full set of probes I'd certainly run them). But still, in sideboard games where there is such a diverse set of answers I've gotten blown out where if I just had a ts I could take their one relevant interaction and when I whiff with therapy it's game losing. I feel like it's sort of like the ponder/careful study dynamic where one is higher upside and one is more reliable, but in this case I haven't found the upside to be worth the drawback. In sideboard games, where they are packing so much hate, you really can't afford to whiff, imo. But I'll concede I just might not have the art of therapy down yet!

Therapy is one of those cards you just have to play a lot. Eventually, you'll get soul reads off of people and won't need Probe.

As for the list, I'm not too keen on mainboard decays, as I would rather dedicate the main 60 to firing off ASAP. Going +1 Careful Study might be correct with the list, but I'm not 100% without jamming any games. The goldfish feels pretty solid though, I'm getting there pretty consistently on t2 on the play, with 0 fizzles and a good amount of mull to 6 to boot.

Edit- I just had a lot of turn 1 kills with protection, this is silly.

[TTX]

Therapy is one of those cards you just have to play a lot. Eventually, you'll get soul reads off of people and won't need Probe.

This is true. When blind, name the card you want them to not have. It works all the time.
Cabal Therapy is my favorite card. In legacy I play Tin Fins, Nic Fit and Aluren, because: Therapy.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Richard Cheese]

Look at all this discussion! That's what I'm talking about!

Maybe I'm just seeing the past through Urza's Sunglasses, but IIRC the original iterations of this deck were turn 0-1 monsters, at the expense of less protection and almost no plan for turn 4 on. Between Deathrite and Chalice, I'm just wondering if that's not where we should try to be again. I like the idea of 2x Careful Study, or maybe Unmask just takes that spot. Both are pretty terrible card disadvantage, but if we're aiming for 10 minute rounds, who cares?

[phazonmutant]

Look at all this discussion! That's what I'm talking about!

Maybe I'm just seeing the past through Urza's Sunglasses, but IIRC the original iterations of this deck were turn 0-1 monsters, at the expense of less protection and almost no plan for turn 4 on. Between Deathrite and Chalice, I'm just wondering if that's not where we should try to be again. I like the idea of 2x Careful Study, or maybe Unmask just takes that spot. Both are pretty terrible card disadvantage, but if we're aiming for 10 minute rounds, who cares?

Yup, that's how I remember it too. When I originally was playing the deck a lot I tried 4 Griselbrand and 4 Study, and really didn't like how poor Study was postboard. Preboard is was a little marginal too. I suppose worth revisiting but not sure what would change about that unless the plan really is like you suggested to just go balls to the wall.

[.dk]

Yup, that's how I remember it too. When I originally was playing the deck a lot I tried 4 Griselbrand and 4 Study, and really didn't like how poor Study was postboard. Preboard is was a little marginal too. I suppose worth revisiting but not sure what would change about that unless the plan really is like you suggested to just go balls to the wall.

That was more or less what I was thinking about with my list a few posts back. Thinking back to Atlanta (I think that may have been the only event I ran Careful Study in), it was really great sometimes, and pretty awful others. I think 4 in this deck will pretty much always be too many (unless you're running Chancellor), but maybe 1 or 2 is worth testing? Dunno, Unmask is prolly better right now though.

I like Acclimation's list above - seems like the fastest potential list we've had in a very long time. Although I do think I disagree on the Unmask/Therapy split. But maybe that's just my love of Therapy speaking. :)

[Acclimation]

I like Acclimation's list above - seems like the fastest potential list we've had in a very long time. Although I do think I disagree on the Unmask/Therapy split. But maybe that's just my love of Therapy speaking. :)

Kai and I were discussing it briefly in PM, and I think that the Unmask/Therapy split is going to come down to personal preference. I feel like you could do 4 Therapy at a larger tournament if you are familiar with the format, as most decks are pretty homogeneous in what hate they bring in (Surgical/RiP/Faerie), so the hit rate is pretty high. However, in sideboard games, I tend to take out some number of Probe, which makes Therapy marginally worse, except in scenarios where they drew all of their hate.

That being said, Unmask can be pretty miserable if your only black cards are combo pieces. Once again, marginal problem, but I can see it being potentially game losing.

It comes down to what you feel is worse: losing because you named the wrong hate card/ didn't have the mana to fire off Therapy targeting yourself and reanimate or losing because you couldn't cast unmask due to having excess cards to pitch (pre combo or in top deck cripple fight).


SB discussion.

For the above list, here's what I'm working with:
2 Chain
2 Serenity
2 Surgical
2 Needle
2 Massacre
2 Swords
3 Flex

As I mentioned a page or so ago, I'm considering Silence as the final 3 flex slots, as it can disrupt opposing combo, and provide a lightning rod against FoW decks.

Flex options (in whatever order I think of them)
3rd copy of Surgical, Swords, and/or Chain (These are good as a 2-of, so a 3rd wouldn't be terrible in some MUs)
Echoing Truth (bounce that is more likely to hit Chalice)
Mindbreak Trap (More anti-combo, not too keen on this)
Lim-dul's vault (Some games are going to go long, looking at you, Miracles)
Island (Same idea as above, would bring in and drop Chrome Mox)
Pull from Eternity (it wasn't good in 2013, likely to not be good now)
Defense Grid (Make those surgicals cost Φ)
Flusterstorm (Makes those opposing counters silly)
Swan Song (Annihilator eats the token, it's probably fine)
Toxic Deluge (Good board wipe vs Leovold decks)
WORLDGORGER DRAGON STUFF (1-0-2 IS STILL A WINNING RECORD, RIGHT?)
Leyline of Sanctity (not bad if burn, storm, and discard are incredibly popular)
Reanimate (sometimes you want that second copy, and it's if you snag somebody's Mentor/Young Peezy)
Show and Tell (hey, we have 4 Griselbrand, it's viable)
Path to Exile (same as swords, but you want to mix it up or are afraid of giving Lands 20 life)
Not of this World (GOTCHA KARAKAS/SWORDS)
Stifle (WE THRESH NOW)
Tendrils (#storm20)

Humor aside, those are probably the better options, considering the make up of the list and sideboard. I think that my sideboard notes in the primer are still relevant for the most part, but could probably be revisited. When in doubt, I tend to go -4 Probe +2 Chain +2 Serenity, and coupled with discard it'll take care of every hate card except Karakas.

edit- just realized that I'm going to have to find another promo Griselbrand or run the regular version with this deck. #firstworldproblems

[.dk]

Kai and I were discussing it briefly in PM, and I think that the Unmask/Therapy split is going to come down to personal preference. I feel like you could do 4 Therapy at a larger tournament if you are familiar with the format, as most decks are pretty homogeneous in what hate they bring in (Surgical/RiP/Faerie), so the hit rate is pretty high. However, in sideboard games, I tend to take out some number of Probe, which makes Therapy marginally worse, except in scenarios where they drew all of their hate.

That being said, Unmask can be pretty miserable if your only black cards are combo pieces. Once again, marginal problem, but I can see it being potentially game losing.

It comes down to what you feel is worse: losing because you named the wrong hate card/ didn't have the mana to fire off Therapy targeting yourself and reanimate or losing because you couldn't cast unmask due to having excess cards to pitch (pre combo or in top deck cripple fight).

Maybe I'm just overconfident in my Therapy sniping. Also seems incredibly unlikely you're going to lose by not having mana to self discard to therapy. If that were the case, you would also be losing if Therapy were an Entomb. If you're in that position you're fucking desperate.

I'm also not sure that I would be boarding out Probes all the time either - that card is too good. Depending on the matchup anyway. Unmask could be really fucking awful in a lot of matchups - could easily see trimming down on those, Ponder, a Griselbrand, or Collective Brutality. I'm not convinced that Probes are the auto board out.

SB discussion.

For the above list, here's what I'm working with:
2 Chain
2 Serenity
2 Surgical
2 Needle
2 Massacre
2 Swords
3 Flex

As I mentioned a page or so ago, I'm considering Silence as the final 3 flex slots, as it can disrupt opposing combo, and provide a lightning rod against FoW decks.

Flex options (in whatever order I think of them)
3rd copy of Surgical, Swords, and/or Chain (These are good as a 2-of, so a 3rd wouldn't be terrible in some MUs)
Echoing Truth (bounce that is more likely to hit Chalice)
Mindbreak Trap (More anti-combo, not too keen on this)
Lim-dul's vault (Some games are going to go long, looking at you, Miracles)
Island (Same idea as above, would bring in and drop Chrome Mox)
Pull from Eternity (it wasn't good in 2013, likely to not be good now)
Defense Grid (Make those surgicals cost Φ)
Flusterstorm (Makes those opposing counters silly)
Swan Song (Annihilator eats the token, it's probably fine)
Toxic Deluge (Good board wipe vs Leovold decks)
WORLDGORGER DRAGON STUFF (1-0-2 IS STILL A WINNING RECORD, RIGHT?)
Leyline of Sanctity (not bad if burn, storm, and discard are incredibly popular)
Reanimate (sometimes you want that second copy, and it's if you snag somebody's Mentor/Young Peezy)
Show and Tell (hey, we have 4 Griselbrand, it's viable)
Path to Exile (same as swords, but you want to mix it up or are afraid of giving Lands 20 life)
Not of this World (GOTCHA KARAKAS/SWORDS)
Stifle (WE THRESH NOW)
Tendrils (#storm20)

Humor aside, those are probably the better options, considering the make up of the list and sideboard. I think that my sideboard notes in the primer are still relevant for the most part, but could probably be revisited. When in doubt, I tend to go -4 Probe +2 Chain +2 Serenity, and coupled with discard it'll take care of every hate card except Karakas.

edit- just realized that I'm going to have to find another promo Griselbrand or run the regular version with this deck. #firstworldproblems

Are we really that worried about other combo decks if we're going to be as fast as possible? That seems like you're boarding for a good matchup already. I've always felt favored against every combo deck with Tin Fins. If we're getting turn 0 interaction and making Turn 1/2 kills more common, I think that is even more true. Due to that, I don't think Silence is where you want to be. Doesn't seem to be enough Stifle/Wasteland/Daze decks around right now to justify that.

2 Show and Tell seems reasonable - hot carl them! It's an out to grave hate anyway. I like defense grid right now too - although it doesn't stop Faerie Macabre.

Given what seem to be bad matchups and what is popular at the moment, I think I would run something very close to this for a reactive board:

2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Something (likely surgical, but maybe another collective brutality or discard spell)

One note about Pull From Eternity is that it DOES have a favorable interaction with Unmask. Still probably not good enough though.

[phazonmutant]

2 Show and Tell seems reasonable - hot carl them!

Hot carl hype

[Acclimation]

Maybe I'm just overconfident in my Therapy sniping. Also seems incredibly unlikely you're going to lose by not having mana to self discard to therapy. If that were the case, you would also be losing if Therapy were an Entomb. If you're in that position you're fucking desperate.

Like I said, I'm looking at those niche corner situations that could pop up. I did have it happen a few times while I was goldfishing though, where I drew Emrakul but only had enough mana to reanimate.

I'm also not sure that I would be boarding out Probes all the time either - that card is too good. Depending on the matchup anyway. Unmask could be really fucking awful in a lot of matchups - could easily see trimming down on those, Ponder, a Griselbrand, or Collective Brutality. I'm not convinced that Probes are the auto board out.

Makes sense, I usually just default to Probe, but with this new configuration I can see trimming other slots over Probe.

Are we really that worried about other combo decks if we're going to be as fast as possible? That seems like you're boarding for a good matchup already. I've always felt favored against every combo deck with Tin Fins. If we're getting turn 0 interaction and making Turn 1/2 kills more common, I think that is even more true. Due to that, I don't think Silence is where you want to be. Doesn't seem to be enough Stifle/Wasteland/Daze decks around right now to justify that.

Fair. I'm pretty much just brainstorming ideas based on what we've done in the past and how I've played cards. Watch me play 4 rounds of Thresh this weekend.

2 Show and Tell seems reasonable - hot carl them! It's an out to grave hate anyway. I like defense grid right now too - although it doesn't stop Faerie Macabre.

I think that the only deck that plays Faerie Macabre is D&T and maybe Aluren? And I wouldn't bring in Defense Grid in those match-ups, so it's probably fine. Where do you think we would bring it in?

I feel like Show and Tell might be a decent game 3 card, where if you run into one of those opponents that run 6+ gy hate because dredge bad touched them one time. Hell, I can see cutting a card or two and running it alongside reanimation stuff.

Given what seem to be bad matchups and what is popular at the moment, I think I would run something very close to this for a reactive board:

2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Something (likely surgical, but maybe another collective brutality or discard spell)

One note about Pull From Eternity is that it DOES have a favorable interaction with Unmask. Still probably not good enough though.

3rd Serenity probably a good choice. I think that gy decks are going to start declining, so 3rd surgical probably loses value, but it does provide great info versus control decks.

That last flex slot could also be the 4th Therapy/Unmask, for those that can't make up their mind. Honestly, I never use more than 12 cards in a reactive board anyway, there's a lot of overlap and we don't typically board out more than 4 cards as is.

Heck, that last slot could just be a troll card. RAL ZAREK HO!

edit- I might get to do some legacy tonight, so I'm doing this for the 3 flex slots:
3rd Swords
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 collective brutality

[KaiSchafroth]

That last flex slot could also be the 4th Therapy/Unmask, for those that can't make up their mind. Honestly, I never use more than 12 cards in a reactive board anyway, there's a lot of overlap and we don't typically board out more than 4 cards as is.

Heck, that last slot could just be a troll card. RAL ZAREK HO!

clearly it should just be Abandon Hope

[Acclimation]

Welp, went 2-2 tonight with the new list. Nothing good to report though, although I did win a game on a mull to 6 on t1 with no lands drawn, so that was radical.

Still up in the air on whether or not to play this or Belcher tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes.

[Zooligan]

So what is the old "turn 0-1 monster" list for comparison to the current lists in the last few pages of the thread? What pages should I be looking at for it?

[Acclimation]

So what is the old "turn 0-1 monster" list for comparison to the current lists in the last few pages of the thread? What pages should I be looking at for it?

The primer.


In other news, I opted to play Belcher today at the win-a-mox, and went 5-2 for the 10th place salt bracket. I had Tinfins ready and the decklist written down (-1 unmask +1 therapy main; -1 cobru +1 unmask sb), but had a gut feeling that Belcher was the correct deck to play for that day (and it was). Shout out to Kai for running the list, if he didn't play the deck, I would have, so hopefully he makes a post about his thoughts sometime tomorrow.

[Koby]

clearly it should just be Abandon Hope

Cabal Therapy naming Hope and Glory.

I see you brought neither today.

[KaiSchafroth]

Hit up a Win-a-Mox yesterday down in Columbia, MO. Sadly only 73 people showed up to play this dead format (/sarcasm) which meant prize pool got bumped up for t8 competitors and there were random door prizes of Revised duals throughout the tourney…yeah, super sad.
Ended up having the most average of days over the 7 rounds but still wanted to do a write-up to keep discussions going and give Acclimation an easy venue to start the flame fest for my loose play I subjected him and others to all day.


1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Brutality
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
1 Reanimate
3 Unmask

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
1 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares

R1 against Luke on Burn – this guy was filling out his decklist at the table we were hanging out at and he jokes about how this is his first time playing Legacy, he’s borrowing the deck and even worse that I already know what he’s playing.

G1: Well, his intro to Legacy isn’t that fun for him. My opener is Dark Ritualx2, Shallow Gravex2, Unmask, Griselbrand and Underground Sea. I Unmask myself pitching the extra Grave (based on having more reanimation effects to draw into than added mana to jumpstart again). My first draw 7 puts Emmy in hand and I’m able to Unmask her into the yard for the 22.

I drop the Gitaxian Probes for the Chain of Vapors and Pithing Needle to cover a range of hate Burn decks have been trying out.

G2: I open on Entomb, Goryo’s Vengeance, three lands, Ponder and Brainstorm. He opens on Goblin Guide revealing an Unmask. I Ponder on my turn trying to find an extra black card so I can hopefully tag an Eidolon of the Great Revel but fail to do so. The famed two drop comes down, our draws aren’t helpful over the next couple turns and by the time we can go off he’s got the couple of critters and a grip that will kill us alongside the Eidolon triggers.

G3: We both take a mull to 6 and I’m looking at Gris x2, Reanimate, DRit, BS and Tundra. I feel like this should have been pitched back but I tend to put too much stock in BS, my opponent seems unhappy with his 6 (keeps) so I keep. I scry another BS to the bottom and BS into a land, DRit and Chain. Stack the chain and land back then pass. He fetches, guides me and passes. I draw the chain, land and pass. He goes right to attacks so I chain his guide (yup this is life) and he ends up just casting it again. Over the next two turns we both draw into some mana with mine being artifacts and his are lands letting him stick a Pyrostatic Pillar. I end up hardcasting Griselbrand from 10. He Price of Progress EoT dropping me to 4 (only Tundra and Swamp out) but leaves him with one in hand so we’re both staring at the top of his deck but probably hoping for different cards. He draws, slams a second Goblin Guide and attacks. I block; assuming I’m just dead before damage…he then starts confirming life totals and reveals he forgot my thing has lifelink. Talk about stealing the game away


R2 against Christian on BUG Delver – chat a little bit while shuffling up and I put him on some sort of non-Miracles blue deck.

G1: He takes a mull to 6 with us on the draw (doesn’t look like I scribbled my hand down). He opens on fetch and cantrip; I open on fetch Therapy on FoW. No hit but he reveals some land, Goyf, Leovold and a TNN. He plays a land, Goyf and passes. My turns consists of Unmasking him before bringing in the tag team.

Took out some mix of Probe, Ponder, Unmask and Therapy for Chain, StP, TS and Needles. This shows why I more often play the decks and sb that I do as I felt like I was taking out the very few ‘disposable’ cards in the main bringing in this wide swath of board cards. I do think part of this was uncertainty on my side and possibly over-boarding (e.g. the StP).

G2: I’m a total fish. Opener is Delta x2, BS, Ritual, Griselbrand, Goryo and Entomb. Opponent considers his opening 7 for a bit before keeping. I open on ritual which he thinks about before letting resolve. We get all the way to casting Goryo (we’re here, make him have it) when we get Surgical’d. He ends up piercing our BS a turn or so later and we end up dying to a Goyf and TNN.

G3: Not sure exactly what our opener was but I recall it being discard heavy. Opening Therapy gets forced and he plays a Delver (until this point all that I’d seen suggested it was TNN BUG). Probe shows he had all his forces in hand, BS, lands and a Daze. Over the next three turns we eat his entire hand and take a few chip shots before he deploys a Goyf. We finally go for it but can only draw 7 once before attacks and opt to Therapy Gris to the yard and end the turn at 13; setting up for next turn. For whatever reason (begin shame) I use one of the spare Goryo’s I left in my hand after clearing my end step trigger. I already had in mind that we’d just reanimate his EoT or our next but sometimes the mouth does the opposite of what the brain planned. There was zero reason to do this since he can’t kill me even if he flips delver from 13. End up not being punished the next turn (don’t know what he could have drawn to mess us up) and just finish him off with Big Mama.


R3 against Dan on Burn – Dan was one of the players at my first table (myself and three burn players) so we already know what one another is on. Dan eventually T8s although I can’t remember final standing.

G1: I didn’t get my hands for any of this round but whatever happened this game it looks like I started taking guide and swiftspear hits before I could find what I needed ahead of an Eidolon.

G2: He does burn things until I’m at 12 and he has a pair of Destructive Revelry and a PoP in hand having already churned through a few fetches and having exactly 6 cards onboard. We Emrakul him down to 2 life and no board or castable cards (doesn’t PoP in response). He ends up drawing a land and bolt to throw at our face but Children of Korlis gets in for the kill.

G3: On a mull to 6 which really should have been pitched back. Believe it was a couple lands, Petal and a cantrip. I scryed more land to the bottom but can’t outpace his draw. Dead over 5 turns and would have been able to kill (more likely than not) if he had been just a single spell slower.


R4 against Andrew on Elves – my buddy (on lands who ended up taking the event down) played this guy in R3 so I already know what’s up.

G1: He fetches and plays a Birchlore; I fetch and kill him.

Brought in 2 StP, Needles, Massacres, TS and a CoV

G2: I take a Nettle hit or two early on while he very slowly deploys some things (he’s stuck on a single Forest and eventually finds a Cradle). I Massacre his board at one point and have a needle on Wirewood to try reducing some of the broken stuff. I get greedy and Emrakul his board. We draw go for a good while (he’s at 1) before he plays a DRS that I have to swords. He draws better than I do and I die an embarrassing death.

G3: I mull to 6 keeping Entomb, 2x Goryo’s, DRit, Probe and a fetch. We Probe (unfortunately seeing a Thoughtseize on his end) into another land play one and pass. He fetches, seizes us and ends up taking the duplicate Goryo’s. We draw into a Ritual and Therapy the next turns while he deploys some green dudes. Only one unknown card so we Ritual and Therapy him. He tries to Surgical the Goryo’s in the yard in response to which we Entomb Emrakul and Goryo’s in response (feelsgoodman). Conveniently he’s at 15 and we spill spaghetti all over.


R5 against Charles on Infect – also saw our lands friend playing him before so I’m ready to put our life total to work. Charles ended up making T8 finishing in 2nd.

G1: Our opener is land light but otherwise great so we open on a Probe (draw Probe) seeing his only interaction is a Daze. He plays a Trop before passing back the turn. Play the drawn Probe hoping to hit a land to get around Daze instead hitting another reanimation spell. Upside is we now have a spare to Unmask his Daze, then Therapy ourselves with the single land and kill from there.

Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, and some number of StPs and Needles

G2: Long story short – he has too much of the right interaction against our hand to beat his draw. We’re dead in 3 attacks while trying to figure how to play through 2x FoW, Fluster, BS, Daze, and Crop Rot.

G3: Opponent is on a mull to 6 and I really think my greed/going for a cute play just cost me this. I play a land and pass then second turn Unmask seeing his Ponder has left him with the single Trop in play and a hand of two Glisteners, two Agents, Crop Rot and Invigorate. I take a Glistener and Surgical them hoping to just stick him with a hand of crap. I take his invig a turn later but it doesn’t end up working as he draws another land and starts hitting with an Agent. I have a span of 3-4 turns to draw almost anything (Entomb or self-discard) but by the time I do he’s found two FoW to pitch to one another.


R6 against Jason on TNN BUG – was watching this guy and someone else play some 93/94 EDH between rounds and let’s just say it was a beautiful sight to be seen. Nice guy who ends up helping me unload a spare Chrome Mox for a Beta Plains and Korean White Knight for my Old School.

G1: This just sucked ass. Jason apparently used to/does play Tin Fins so the first few plays he identifies the deck (I think Acclimation knows Jason?). Let’s just leave this game at: I draw 21 cards and sometimes you still just can’t get there. I’m going for the kill on my T2 and fail to find a Petal/Mox or Emrakul in the 20-some cards I see (Probe mixed in) to avoid dying to an active DRS when I pass back.

G2: While I’m able to open on Needle for DRS I’m unable to find a CoV for his cage and simply not enough discard to get through double FoW, Daze and Fluster before his TNN can get there.


R7 against Brett on Sneak & Show

G1: I can’t recall the exact sequence but I discard his Griselbrand the first or second turn leaving him with basically nothing but mana, Ponder and a BS. He Ponders keeps and passes. I presume this means I’m about to be dead and jam. He BS into a FoW for my Goryo’s (with an extra as my leftovers) before passing. He doesn’t do anything on his turn and I cast another Goryo’s. I proceed to draw a bunch of cards, Therapy Emrakul and give the S&S player a look at 22 from the other side.

CoV, Fluster, TS, Needles – we laugh while boarding about how glad he was he didn’t find his S&T earlier or he would have jammed

G2: We both spend our first turns cantripping. A turn or two later he just laughs and says, “well, let’s see” and jams out Show and Tell. I BS in response as I have Gris in hand but figure if I can spike Emrakul or maybe a needle for Sneak that’s better. Sadly I don’t and he puts an Omniscience into play. In response to his casting a Griselbrand I try to CoV his Omni (maybe should have drawn 7 first). The stack gets nuts (he had multiple BS and Cunning Wish before I die to Release the Ants as I’m unable to draw and then BS back my own Emrakul. Funnily enough I do flip another Gris on top…close!

G3: We go back and forth the first few turns with me mostly hitting him with discard each turn prepping to go off. At one point he taps out to cast a Sneak Attack which I CoV back to his hand. I start to go off with a Gris and have to start a Children of Korlis loop. He seems to be a little salty or annoyed at this point, asking a judge how much time is left in the round (20-some minutes btw) despite the fact I’m not moving slow by any means. I can’t recall exactly what was up with the draws but I couldn’t loop into hard casting an Emrakul. I end up just eating his entire hand and killing him the following turn.

Final result: 4-3 matches


-Like the Unmasks in the deck as they gave me some flexibility I needed in protection/mana availability (e.g. R1G1 & R5G1) while still serving as self-discard.
-Brutality I’m not sold on (I used it 0 times during the event) but 7 rounds also isn’t the most extensive testing sample. Feels like I want it as a 2 or 0 of… I might try making it a Tendrils for the next while.
-The Chrome Mox was better than land 15 in a few situations; zero occurrences during the tourney where it cost me/forced mulls or cantrip decisions and actually added a card to a scenario where I needed to hit a non-land IMS (R6G1).
-Despite my results I felt that at almost any given point I was a literal draw away from being able to pull back into it.

-Sideboard was the right guts for a reactive; I couldn’t find my 3rd Serenity and was uncertain on a final 1-2 slots which led to the TS and Fluster singles. The 3rd StP, Fluster and TS are clearly flex as Acclimation has written about at length before.
The issues I had (not uncommon for a deck like this) were finding things I was happy to cut for the board cards. Some mix of Probes/Ponders is usually a fine starting point but from that point it just felt like I’m watering down on things like discard, which I still want for both combo and protection. Perhaps this setup still actually works better with a transformation that’s just protecting the shit out of Mentor?

-From what I recall the room consisted of a handful of storm, good representation of BR, 2-3 elves, 2-3 D&T, a bunch of Maverick/junk style decks, a representative or two on most other combo (S&T, Infect, Painter, some jerk on Belcher), one Eldrazi, a few Miracles (who all apparently punted their way down the tables) and then other misc stuff.
Felt like a room where “asking questions and making your opponent answer them” was the right call. Despite the preparation people made for BR, its reliance on sorcery speed reanimation (and the mindset it put opponents in) I felt actually gave an edge since I could still try to mold situations where a surgical or macabre didn’t matter with our instant speed effects.

[Acclimation]

some jerk on Belcher

But who could that handsome degenerate be?

R6 against Jason on TNN BUG – was watching this guy and someone else play some 93/94 EDH between rounds and let’s just say it was a beautiful sight to be seen. Nice guy who ends up helping me unload a spare Chrome Mox for a Beta Plains and Korean White Knight for my Old School.

G1: This just sucked ass. Jason apparently used to/does play Tin Fins so the first few plays he identifies the deck (I think Acclimation knows Jason?). Let’s just leave this game at: I draw 21 cards and sometimes you still just can’t get there. I’m going for the kill on my T2 and fail to find a Petal/Mox or Emrakul in the 20-some cards I see (Probe mixed in) to avoid dying to an active DRS when I pass back.

G2: While I’m able to open on Needle for DRS I’m unable to find a CoV for his cage and simply not enough discard to get through double FoW, Daze and Fluster before his TNN can get there.

Jason is a regular from my LGS, I kept beating him week after week with Tinfins, and he bought into it because he always saw me wishing I had less fun. 93/94/95 Edh has been the thing we do to kill time between rounds and until our shop kicks us out.

R7 against Brett on Sneak & Show


G3: We go back and forth the first few turns with me mostly hitting him with discard each turn prepping to go off. At one point he taps out to cast a Sneak Attack which I CoV back to his hand. I start to go off with a Gris and have to start a Children of Korlis loop. He seems to be a little salty or annoyed at this point, asking a judge how much time is left in the round (20-some minutes btw) despite the fact I’m not moving slow by any means. I can’t recall exactly what was up with the draws but I couldn’t loop into hard casting an Emrakul. I end up just eating his entire hand and killing him the following turn.

I wandered back over during this, and the look on your face while looking at your 20 card hand said "I wish I had Tendrils". If I remember correctly, you didn't draw Shallow or Reanimate, just Goryo's, so you couldn't get back children, but you did draw brutality (which occupies the Tendrils slot).

-Like the Unmasks in the deck as they gave me some flexibility I needed in protection/mana availability (e.g. R1G1 & R5G1) while still serving as self-discard.

Unmask felt good in testing, and it looked good the few times I wandered over after my games.

-Brutality I’m not sold on (I used it 0 times during the event) but 7 rounds also isn’t the most extensive testing sample. Feels like I want it as a 2 or 0 of… I might try making it a Tendrils for the next while.

I like Brutality, considering the room: I saw a lot of fair decks, and sniping a DRS or Thalia g1 feels pretty good. I've been running 2 in my stock list and it's been solid, if sometimes awkward. That being said, I think we both discussed a few situations where Tendrils would have just won you the game on the spot.

-Sideboard was the right guts for a reactive; I couldn’t find my 3rd Serenity and was uncertain on a final 1-2 slots which led to the TS and Fluster singles. The 3rd StP, Fluster and TS are clearly flex as Acclimation has written about at length before.
The issues I had (not uncommon for a deck like this) were finding things I was happy to cut for the board cards. Some mix of Probes/Ponders is usually a fine starting point but from that point it just felt like I’m watering down on things like discard, which I still want for both combo and protection. Perhaps this setup still actually works better with a transformation that’s just protecting the shit out of Mentor?

I think that if we go that route, we come down to the issue of not having something to pair with Mentor, as on it's own it is unreliable.

Good showing overall, there were quite a few times I regretted not playing the deck while watching you play, which was pretty much all day as we missed getting paired together, but got seated next to each other for multiple rounds. That being said...

We finally go for it but can only draw 7 once before attacks and opt to Therapy Gris to the yard and end the turn at 13; setting up for next turn. For whatever reason (begin shame) I use one of the spare Goryo’s I left in my hand after clearing my end step trigger. I already had in mind that we’d just reanimate his EoT or our next but sometimes the mouth does the opposite of what the brain planned. There was zero reason to do this since he can’t kill me even if he flips delver from 13. End up not being punished the next turn (don’t know what he could have drawn to mess us up) and just finish him off with Big Mama.

But man, this play. Bro, come on. Good thing he drew like garbage, because he only had the Verdant Catacombs in hand when you flashed back Therapy. (flame over)

[Kobra_D]

Personally, I still think Br Reanimator looks like hot garbage on paper, but it seems to be putting up numbers, so I thought it was at least worth trying to figure out why it's doing well and if we can incorporate some of those elements. Looking at the 2nd place list from Louisville, it breaks down like this
...
So what really makes it tick? Is it just Chancellor? Is it still worth running if you never intend to reanimate it? Should we go back to risking more dead draws to just run more Grizzlebees/discard? Can we get away with 12 lands?

If anyone that actually gets to play the deck wants to test some of this stuff, I'd be interested to hear the results.

Going back to this train of thought. I learned how to play legacy format on the back of TinFins, but couldn't afford the stock list and went BR as a budget option. The consistency from the speed does come from chancellors, and extra discard like unmask from what I've found.

Running chrome mox for extra mana also makes chancellor not as dead in hand. It does get a little awkward as some draws are hard to pull off without the extra digging of blue but draw 14+ is hard to fizzle. Going for the combo is always more stressful than if I had force back up though, and there have been times were force or daze shuts me out after over committing.

It might be a bit of "the grass is greener on the other side" with BR gets T1 griselbrand more often, but UB gets Griselbrand T2 on more resiliently.

Here is what I've typically run, but I do mix it around with burning wish sometimes.

//Creatures I Care About
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
2 Children of Korlis

//Rituals
4 Dark Ritual
3 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide

//Draw
4 Faithless Looting

//Discard
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
3 Chancellor of the Annex

//Reanimation
2 Exhume
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
1 Goryo's Vengeance

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
5 Swamp
1 Mountain

Rite and spirit guide, help just by only needing to go through the deck once before casting Emrakul as opposed to needing to go through the steps of looping a couple of times. The exumes as opposed to more G. Vengeance's were to help get children back. It's definitely more all in than the other lists that people run but it does get there in the early turns.