[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Kathal]

Btw guys, if you don't want to run a transformational SB and just play the reactive one, pls play 1 Soul Spike MD. The possibility to win with instant speed is huge (and it won me several games). However, it is garbage in the post board games, if you have the transformational SB.

Next thing I will test are 2 Daze instead of the Duress/Thoughtseize.

Greetings,
Kathal

[Darkgobs]

Your game 1 against Counterbalance was so awesome! I love that this deck goes at instant speed for interactions like that.

Thank you! =P I really enjoyed that game!

With this change though, I think you can run Tops AND Bob's in the board for the transformation though:

4 Mentor
4 Bob
1 Top
1 Cavern of Souls

And whatever 5 pieces of reactive hate that you're interested in. That gives you 2 Tops still (which as Koby pointed out, helps both Bob as well as Mentor) and more threats to drop.

That is a brillant idea. I will try that set-up and see how it goes. I think if I had to choose 5 hate cards, I would go for something like 1 Pithing Needle, 1/2 Chain of Vapor, 1/2 Serenity, 0-1 Massacre.


And by the way: the more I play Lim-Dûl's Vault, the more I like that card. In a lot of games I keep them both post-side very often, where it shines at finding the needed card.

[TTX]

Could someone explain to me how Soul Spike is good? I can only think that it adds an additional grip from Griselbrand or makes the Tendrils storm potentially smaller, how is itself an alternate win condition at instant speed?


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[Koby]

Could someone explain to me how Soul Spike is good? I can only think that it adds an additional grip from Griselbrand or makes the Tendrils storm potentially smaller, how is itself an alternate win condition at instant speed?


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There... is... presumably a method to loop Emrakul and Soul Spike all on the stack.
I don't think it's worth the trouble honestly, but it does legitimately kill at Instant speed.

[TTX]

Ok, so whenever you like, with Griselbrand and Children already in play...cast Soul Spike for alternate cost, Entomb Emrakul, shuffle all back in and draw all over again with a Children Grisel engine? Seems like a lot of work when you could be just casting Tendrils on your own turn of the same engine.


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[Kathal]

@Soul Spike:

This is pretty simple: let's say it is the opponents turn, you have a Grisel in play and B floating. Furthermore, you have to win now (for w/e reason). You draw 14 cards, hope to hit DR, Entomb and Shallow Grave (or you have already have them in your hand), cast DR, grab Children with Entomb, Shallow Grave them, draw another 14 cards and repeat this action (so only DR and Shallow Grave) till you have drawn the better half of your bib (including the Soul Spike). Now you Soul Spike the opponent (by removing some garbage), entomb for Emmi, shuffle your graveyard back in, draw your bib again, Soul Spike the opponent again and so on.

However, this is a little bit difficult to execute properly and you need to draw pretty well (so that you don't draw the Emmi, or you have U floating for a BS into Entomb to get rid of Emmi).

In the end, you are going infinite with the normal draw deck + pitch Emmi line, and chain Soul Spikes, DR, Shallow Graves and Entombs.

Greetings,
Kathal

Useful situations so far: winning in my end step vs Miracles, who went top -> entreat, Omnitell when he went S&T into Omniscience --> Dig (although this was pre bannings), winning in response to RiP (he had to tap low for it), tapping DRS to remove stuff in my endstep and several things more.

I know, that the Soul Spike loop is more difficult to execute than going for Borborygmos Enraged, but Borbor is just garbage otherwise (killed several Storm players which went to low with ADN with it). The only reason, why I would play Borbor instead is, when I'm playing with Shoal, but this concept looks rather weak imo.

Greetings,
Kathal

[alastair]

And by the way: the more I play Lim-Dûl's Vault, the more I like that card. In a lot of games I keep them both post-side very often, where it shines at finding the needed card.

I'm fully on-board with LDV again having gone back to two; the turn three kill or post-board silver bullet, is invaluable.

We had a ~40 persons event last weekend, skilfully arriving in ninth at 4-2 with amazing breakers..... and an early start to the drive home. The Mentor performed exceptionally well, and I'm erring toward the fourth Bob and 1-2 SDT if I can fit them in (Pack Rat whilst hilarious is just not efficient given the low land count and abhorrent card-draw). With ~4-5 SB slots spare, 1-2 Serenity + 2 Bounce + 1 Needle is my current plan.

[Darkgobs]

[...]With ~4-5 SB slots spare, 1-2 Serenity + 2 Bounce + 1 Needle is my current plan.

1/ So no Massacre? I like it against D&T / Maverick or even some Mentor.deck, because sometimes, especially if you are on the play post-board (typically in game 3), you could want to play the combo-plan again, and rush him befor he locks you. But sometimes for whatever reason you won't be able to combo of as early as you would wish to, and you will need to get rid of some nasty hate (2+ hate pieces). In thoses cases, going for LDV searching for your singleton Massacre is gamechanger.

2/ Don't you feel like you want a 15th land when you transform? I personnaly run a Tundra in the board (+1 Tundra, - 1 Mox post-board if I go for Mentor). But I am still not sure if it's worth the slot. What do you guys think about it?

[.dk]

1/ So no Massacre? I like it against D&T / Maverick or even some Mentor.deck, because sometimes, especially if you are on the play post-board (typically in game 3), you could want to play the combo-plan again, and rush him befor he locks you. But sometimes for whatever reason you won't be able to combo of as early as you would wish to, and you will need to get rid of some nasty hate (2+ hate pieces). In thoses cases, going for LDV searching for your singleton Massacre is gamechanger.

2/ Don't you feel like you want a 15th land when you transform? I personnaly run a Tundra in the board (+1 Tundra, - 1 Mox post-board if I go for Mentor). But I am still not sure if it's worth the slot. What do you guys think about it?

I think it's probably worth the slot for a Cavern of Souls. I still haven't tested this yet (I hope to this weekend), but from playing a different deck with Cavern and all of your threats being human... it's savage beats. It's obviously at it's best vs. miracles or tempo - so maybe you trim the serenity and keep a massacre like you're saying, as Cavern is basically a sideboard card vs. Miracles.

[lilevo]

Just out of curiosity but with Soul Spike, couldn't you try to win sorta like the old bargain deck did in standard with soul feast?

[Kathal]

Just out of curiosity but with Soul Spike, couldn't you try to win sorta like the old bargain deck did in standard with soul feast?

Dunno what you mean , do you have a link maybe?

Btw. Soul Feast is way worse than Soul Spike, since it is not a Instant :P

Greetings,
Kathal

[Koby]

Just out of curiosity but with Soul Spike, couldn't you try to win sorta like the old bargain deck did in standard with soul feast?

You could try to win with Soul Spike, and retool the life gain elements. However, the math doesn't work out well with Griselbrand. You might be able to gain 1 extra activation of Griselbrand on average, but only deal 4 damage.

For some context, I pushed development to try to mirror the following (now defunct)-Classic format list:

Necro Spike

4 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Demonic Consultation
4 Soul Spike
4 Tendrils of Agony
13 lands

A lot of similar elements are present in today's Tin Fins. You could push for this deck design by eliminating Emrakul and Children of Korlis, and just jam 4 Tendrils to try to win with storm / Soul Spike. Probably will win a ton of games off classic Storm too.

[.dk]

That was actually somewhat similar to how the deck was originally designed for GP Atlanta. Jamming 4 Tendrils - would be a fun nostalgic endeavor to try to modify it to fit 4 Soul Spikes in (seems easy as that list was... suboptimal at best).

[Pomegrant]

I told Kathal that I would post my updated list for him. Not much has changed but I've moved a few pieces around from some suggestions I've gotten.

Lands - 13
1 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Children of Korlis
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Shallow Grave
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul

Sideboard
1 Careful Study
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Day's Undoing
2 Duress
1 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Meltdown
1 Pithing Needle

Basically the changes have been cutting the main deck Goryo's Vengeance. It was mostly awkward because it didn't play well with LED and didn't play well with Children of Korlis. I want Reanimate over it because it's a clean way to keep the combo going. It's easy on your life total and easy on your mana.

In the sideboard I don't have a Show and Tell on MTGO so I've been trying Pithing Needle. I board it in against Deathrite Shaman and Miracles all the time but it's not very good unless you spike it.

Biggest sideboard change has been to cut the sideboard Thoughtseize (which was dead weight) for a Careful Study. It's been great so far to wish for. It's a cheap way to get Griselbrand into the graveyard if you have one in hand but don't want to get rid of the rest of your hand with LED.

[Kathal]

@Pomegrant, you deck misses 4 cards, but I think this is the playset Burning Wish.

Also, did you consider Faithless Looting instead of Careful Study? Since you are already running R in the MD it seems like not that big stretch for a better card.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: That Day's Undoing looks spicy :D

[Pomegrant]

I edited the list to have Wishes in there.

I've decided not to play Faithless Looting because it's harder to come by two red mana on the same turn instead of just a red and a blue. Looting is obviously just better but I did it for ease of casting.

Day's Undoing has been just okay so far. It's nice when I get all of my stuff countered and just reset the game but it's not super exciting. I think it's reasonable to play something else.

[alastair]

1/ So no Massacre? I like it against D&T / Maverick or even some Mentor.deck, because sometimes, especially if you are on the play post-board (typically in game 3), you could want to play the combo-plan again, and rush him befor he locks you. But sometimes for whatever reason you won't be able to combo of as early as you would wish to, and you will need to get rid of some nasty hate (2+ hate pieces). In thoses cases, going for LDV searching for your singleton Massacre is gamechanger.

2/ Don't you feel like you want a 15th land when you transform? I personnaly run a Tundra in the board (+1 Tundra, - 1 Mox post-board if I go for Mentor). But I am still not sure if it's worth the slot. What do you guys think about it?

I'm including the 15th land SB, pretty essential I've found so far. I'm running Tundra, but can understand Cavern although I'm wary of the drawback in not casting cantrips.

DnT etc Game 3 I tend to hedge with both plans. They don't know where you will be going, and running through the motions to reanimate, and making a Mentor if they land cage can throw them off. Massacre is really good, but too narrow for the actual ~4 SB slots I have (I may be wrong if DnT's / Maverick, etc pickup in numbers, but I prefer the flexibility of bounce/needle etc).

I'm off making 20/20's at the minute but will pick TinFins up when no one expects it. I still feel Doomsday is just straight up better (if I stopped killing myself).

[DNSolver]

I am building a BR list to save a little money on blue lands. My deck is probably a bit inferior right out of the gates, but please let me know what y'all think:

4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
4 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Chrome Mox

SB: work in progress, definitely including 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Lightning Bolt (for containment priest),
considering 2 Duress, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Massacre, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Young Pyromancer as the rest of the slots

[.dk]

I played in the 5k Legacy IQ at SCG Denver on Sunday and got 31st with this list:

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brianstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Serenity
1 Massacre

I went 4-3 overall - 1 loss was directly to a misplay, 1 may have been to misplays, and 1 I believe was variance. A brief report for those interested...

Round 1: Lands
G1: He has the nuts and kills me T2 off of 2 Crop Rotations, Manabond, Loam. Wow.

G2. I stay on Reanimation as he has no idea what I'm doing. I slay him easily.

G3: I board into Mentor. I have a great (but slow) hand with Cavern and Mentor. T3 I slam down my Cavern naming Human... and realize that I accidentally slammed down an Underground Sea naming Human. And i have no white sources. Well shit - that's embarrassing. I proceed to lose by 1 turn which I think would have been the difference had I not been an idiot.

0-1

Round 2: Moat Stompy (Admiral Arzar)
Lose the die roll
G1: I keep the nuts. He mulls, and plays Karakas pass. He knows what I'm likely on, so it's a reasonable keep/play. I combo through Karakas on my T1 anyway. But I'm foolish and forget to Probe or Thoughtseize him along the way, so I have no idea what he's on. I believe he's been playing Lands lately so I put him on that...

G2: Board into Mentor as I assume he brings in graveyard hate and hass access to Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog. He proceeds to slam T1 suppression field into my hand of fetchlands. Then Chalice on 0 and 1 join, and 2 more Suppression fields. And later a Chalice on 2. Geez. I get beaten down by Aven Mindcensor. Eek. Well, I know what he's on now - and should have guessed because I know he plays this deck sometimes.

G3: Stay on Mentor
I keep a great double Mentor hand. He plays T1 Chalice on 1. On T2, I play my first Mentor off of Lotus Petal and he plays Exalted Angel. T3 I play my second Mentor. T4 I play a Thoughtseize and Chain of Vapor into Chalice to trigger both mentors. He Angel attacked me the previous turn, so I attack him down to 12 with 2 4/4 mentors. He leaves Angel back to block the next turn. T5 I cast Cabal Therapy into Chalice, then sacrifice one of the new tokens to flash it back. I swing for 20, which is exactisies with his Exalted Angel blocker.

1-1

Round 3: Jund

I actually don't remember this match. If I can piece what happened together from my notes I'll update this. I presumably burst some onions game 1, and a monk army won game 2 in the face of deathrite. Dunno.

2-1

Round 4: Imperial Painter

G1: This game was insane. I keep a decent hand with reanimation, a ponder, some lands, and Top. I play swamp pass. He plays blood moon. Great - at least I have my swamp and Top. Play top, and filter forever with a couple shuffle effects from Ponder (one got countered along the way) off of Petals, looking for Entomb. I think I died around T12 or so never having found an Entomb OR a Griselbrand to go with the discard I eventually drew. Dang.

G2: I boarded into Mentor as he saw some reanimation spells that I had to discard due to hand size G1. This game was also a grind - I eventually landed Mentor and Dark Confidant and eventually beat him to death with dudes. It was a slog.

G3: There are only 8 minutes left on the clock, so despite wanting to stay on Mentor, I boarded back to Reanimation in the interest of speed. He mulls to 6 or 5 and plays T1 Grindstone with 4 minutes to go. Looks like we're both on the combo off plan to try to get the win in before we go to time... I end up going off on T2 right as time was called. Bareeeely squeaked in there.

3-1

Round 5: Grixis Tezzeret

G1: I kill him pretty quickly on T1 or 2. My notes aren't very good - looks like he's on some Tezz deck.

G2: I go to Mentor - but he locks me out of the game very quickly somehow. I don't remember exactly how. I believe he raced me with 5/5's from Tezzeret to my Mentor and I didn't have enough cards to make enough tokens.

G3: I stay Mentor - I have a great board position and am set to kill him the next turn unless he gets Ensnaring Bridge. He draws, Dack loots him into Transmute Artifact which gets him Bridge. We draw for a long time and he eventually Helm's me out. Boo.

3-2

Round 6: Sneak and Show
He's a local that I saw playing earlier so I knew what he was on.

G1: I kill him very quickly through some countermagic with discard spells.

G2: I'm an idiot and board completely wrong. I stay on reanimation as it's pretty good against Show and Tell. But I forgot to bring in Serenity and Chain of Vapor for grafdigger's cage. Whoops. I lose to that card, while having access to 14 mana and an Emrakul in hand for 2 turns. Damn...

G3. I board correctly this time - I discard a Sneak Attack and needle a fetchland in his hand, but that doesn't slow the game enough before I die to Griselbrand + Emrakul swinging.

Fatigue I think caught up to me here - I boarded wrong and made some really risky plays with Needle, rather than just naming Sneak Attack.

3-3

Round 7: LED Dredge
He wins the die roll

G1: He goes nuts on T1 with Gemstone Mine, LED, and Faithless Looting. His dredges are excellent - at least 3 Bridges in the yard, 2 Therapies, 2 Narcomoebas, Flame Kin Zealot. He flashes back Therapy with Narcomoeba... I hem and haw, and count damage... eventually say it resolves. He names Force of Will. I scoop so he doesn't get info and hope that I trick him enough to make him think I'm playing a fair deck.

G2: It works! He apparently boarded in 3 Nature's Claim. I keep a T2 hand and play Delta, pass. He plays Gemstome Mine, LED, and Faithless Looting. He doesn't flash back Looting in case I have a Force of Will. EOT, I fetch and Entomb - then he realizes he got got. It was pretty funny seeing the realization on his face. :) T2 I Goryo's Vengeance and proceed to make an Emrakul along with Griselbrand and kill him.

G3: I keep a nut 7 - Lands, Therapy, Cabal Therapy, Griselbrand, 2 Shallow Grave, and Lotus Petal. He goes down to 5... plays Gemstone Mine, 2 LED's, shit... and passes! Hooray! I proceed to Tendrils for eleventy-billion or so. Good end to the tournament. :)

4-3

Thoughts: Holy shit is Mentor powerful. This is the first time I've transformed with this deck where I actually felt just about as powerful as the maindeck. Mentor (particularly with Top/Bob) does some really nutty things all while sidestepping graveyard hate and some storm related hate that they could bring in (spell pierce, flusterstorm, etc.). The 1 ofs in the board look a little goofy at first until you realize that you can Lim-Dul's Vault for them as well - so you're really close to running 3 of them all. Cavern of Souls is a beating. This shit is powerful...

Also - I didn't miss the extra 2 Ponder maindeck vs. Top. In fact, with all of the Blood Moons I saw, Top was probably better as there were cases (Imperial Painter) that I was still filtering with top whereas I would have just been top decking with Ponder alone. And the deck does run some shuffle effects with Entomb, LDV (which has a cool interaction with top as well), Ponder, 8 fetches.

Anyway, my record doesn't show it, but I'm sold. Bye bye Doomsday - I'll see you when I play DDFT again.

[Kathal]

Btw. Pomegrant is streaming his Tin Fins version right now: http://www.twitch.tv/pomegrant

Greetings,
Kathal