[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

Post #1
Post #2621

Oh, how I wish there was a favorite button on here

[Koby]

How do u really beat karakas and rip deck's?

Our chief weapon is surprise!... Surprise and fear... fear and surprise... Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency! Our three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope... Our four... no... Amongst our weapons... Hmf... Amongst our weaponry... are such elements as fear, surpr...

Also, quite easily. Karakas has little impact on the combo turn, since Griselbrand is more Yawgmoth's Bargain than Lord of the Pit. RIP decks are also easily handled with Chain of Vapor, discard, or speed. Worst case - we can hard-cast Griselbrand.

[phazonmutant]

Went 3-1. Nut-drew a few people, had close, interesting games in my loss. 1-1 against UR Delver, 1-0 BUG Delver (Mentor is insane), 1-0 Belcher (2 turn 1 kills in a row. Who's the belcher deck now, bitch?)

Two things of note.
1. How do you board against UR Delver? My thought is that they tend to have only a couple of Surgicals, and Mentor is both too slow and vulnerable to all the Bolts and Chain Lightnings they leave in, so I should board out 1 Top, 1 Probe for 2 Flusterstorm. If you don't have Flusterstorm, no boarding.

2. A super interesting Cabal Therapy play came up G3 against a UR Delver opponent. Both sides merit discussion. I have no Mentors in the list, only the combo. I saw Surgical last game. I'm going into my third turn on the play and play a Swamp for the turn.
My board: 1 Underground Sea, 1 Tundra, 1 Swamp 1 Lotus Petal
My hand: Ponder, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Entomb, Shallow Grave
His board: Delver (unflipped), 2 Volcanic Islands (untapped)
His hand: Force, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Chain Lightning, 1 unknown

So obviously I lead on Cabal Therapy. He Brainstorms in response, leaving up Volcanic. He's indecisive about the two, but I track his cards and believe that he put a Force or Brainstorm on top and one of the new cards.

I named Force, which given my read and that he has Brainstorm, is almost certainly wrong. I have a suspicion that he has Surgical Extraction, but not sure why. I think I should have named Brainstorm because if he put back Force, Brainstorm would let him access it, and if I didn't I get to play a longer game.

From his side, his unknown was Price of Progress, and he Brainstormed into Force, Surgical, and Bolt. What do you put back? He ended up putting back Force, Force; leaving Surgical in hand and Brainstorm to access Force. At this point it's a leveling game - does he think I'm on the level to name Brainstorm or Force?

Ok, so that's interesting, but there's more to this turn! Let's say I named Brainstorm because I played correctly, seeing that he had Surgical, Snapcaster in hand, Force on top for relevant spells over the next couple turns. I can still try to go off this turn with Ponder. My Ponder sees Entomb, Griselbrand, Dark Ritual. So I can play Shallow Grave and double Entomb to play around Surgical, but there's a few options.
1. Entomb for Griselbrand first, play Shallow Grave, he Surgicals. I let it resolve, Emrakul him and put him at 1.
2. Entomb for Emrakul, play Shallow Grave, he Surgicals. I let it resolve, Griselbrand him.
3. Shuffle off of Ponder
4. Draw one of the cards off of Ponder and pass.

Which is better? I'm leaning towards option 1. If we're not in hypothetical land and he still has Surgical, Snapcaster, Brainstorm in hand with Force on top, do I still go for it to get rid of Surgical, Force, Snapcaster, and one of my creatures?

Sorry for the dense list of questions, but I think that single turn was super interesting and if we had played slightly differently could have resulted in me winning the match.

[.dk]

Went 3-1. Nut-drew a few people, had close, interesting games in my loss. 1-1 against UR Delver, 1-0 BUG Delver (Mentor is insane), 1-0 Belcher (2 turn 1 kills in a row. Who's the belcher deck now, bitch?)

Two things of note.
1. How do you board against UR Delver? My thought is that they tend to have only a couple of Surgicals, and Mentor is both too slow and vulnerable to all the Bolts and Chain Lightnings they leave in, so I should board out 1 Top, 1 Probe for 2 Flusterstorm. If you don't have Flusterstorm, no boarding.

2. A super interesting Cabal Therapy play came up G3 against a UR Delver opponent. Both sides merit discussion. I have no Mentors in the list, only the combo. I saw Surgical last game. I'm going into my third turn on the play and play a Swamp for the turn.
My board: 1 Underground Sea, 1 Tundra, 1 Swamp 1 Lotus Petal
My hand: Ponder, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Entomb, Shallow Grave
His board: Delver (unflipped), 2 Volcanic Islands (untapped)
His hand: Force, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Chain Lightning, 1 unknown

So obviously I lead on Cabal Therapy. He Brainstorms in response, leaving up Volcanic. He's indecisive about the two, but I track his cards and believe that he put a Force or Brainstorm on top and one of the new cards.

I named Force, which given my read and that he has Brainstorm, is almost certainly wrong. I have a suspicion that he has Surgical Extraction, but not sure why. I think I should have named Brainstorm because if he put back Force, Brainstorm would let him access it, and if I didn't I get to play a longer game.

From his side, his unknown was Price of Progress, and he Brainstormed into Force, Surgical, and Bolt. What do you put back? He ended up putting back Force, Force; leaving Surgical in hand and Brainstorm to access Force. At this point it's a leveling game - does he think I'm on the level to name Brainstorm or Force?

Ok, so that's interesting, but there's more to this turn! Let's say I named Brainstorm because I played correctly, seeing that he had Surgical, Snapcaster in hand, Force on top for relevant spells over the next couple turns. I can still try to go off this turn with Ponder. My Ponder sees Entomb, Griselbrand, Dark Ritual. So I can play Shallow Grave and double Entomb to play around Surgical, but there's a few options.
1. Entomb for Griselbrand first, play Shallow Grave, he Surgicals. I let it resolve, Emrakul him and put him at 1.
2. Entomb for Emrakul, play Shallow Grave, he Surgicals. I let it resolve, Griselbrand him.
3. Shuffle off of Ponder
4. Draw one of the cards off of Ponder and pass.

Which is better? I'm leaning towards option 1. If we're not in hypothetical land and he still has Surgical, Snapcaster, Brainstorm in hand with Force on top, do I still go for it to get rid of Surgical, Force, Snapcaster, and one of my creatures?

Sorry for the dense list of questions, but I think that single turn was super interesting and if we had played slightly differently could have resulted in me winning the match.

So I've read this a few times to try to figure out what I'm missing... You're right that the therapy should name brainstorm - that leaves him with at most 1 spell of interaction. In this case Surgical. I feel like his line of putting both forces back and leaving surgical in hand was the best play he could make there. That leaves him with the most options.

I don't see a 5th option in your scenario where you name brainstorm though...

5. Draw Entomb, Dark Ritual, Entomb for Griselbrand, Shallow Grave, Entomb for Griselbrand in response to Surgical with your last mana source. You get Griselbrand in play.

You're in great shape here as in the worst case you get at least a draw 7, and you can flash back Therapy sacrificing Griselbrand to nab his Snapcaster so he can't flash back Surgical. This leaves you with a Griselbrand in the yard and a good chance to draw another reanimation spell to go off again the next turn (hopefully you draw reanimation as well as discard). You obviously can't go super low on life due to price and his delver that's about to flip... but I don't think you're necessarily in bad shape there. And really, that's the worst case. You also have a chance of just drawing the nuts and winning on the spot.

That said - I can see a case for Option 1 as well to put him at 1 and wipe his board. You still have the opportunity to make Emrakul again later, as you can sacrifice it to Therapy (like above) end of turn and shuffle it back in. Or a topdeck tendrils, children of korlis, etc.

Going back to your actual game scenario though... I'm not sure I would go for it before getting access to another discard spell. One thing you could do, is draw the Entomb off of Ponder, and just Entomb for Griselbrand and pass while you sculpt your hand. Then, lets say he proactively surgicals Griselbrand... you can Shallow Grave in response, he counters, you can then Entomb for Emrakul shuffling all of your guys back in and making Surgical fizzle and your combo is still live. Not the best scenario in the world as you're left with no combo pieces, but you've gotten rid of at least Surgical, a Force, and likely Snapcaster, leaving him with 1 more Force in hand. I mean, you're in bad shape here regardless... I'm really not sure.

[DNSolver]

You guys in the past few posts seem to be proposing lines of play that don't work with Surgical Extraction. Let's say the stack is:

Top:
Surgical Extraction (targeting Griz)
Shallow Grave
Bottom.

If you entomb a Griz in response, that Griz also gets Surgical'd before Shallow Grave resolves. If you entomb an Emrakul in response, the shuffle trigger will go on top of the stack and happen before either of the spells on the stack. The result will be the GY getting shuffled back in, the Surgical fizzles, and Shallow Grave gets back nothing.

The only way to get around Surgical here is to entomb Emrakul first, making the stack:

Top:
Surgical Extraction (targeting Emrakul, assuming that they don't want to take 15)
Shallow Grave
Emrakul Shuffle trigger
Bottom.

Then you can let Surgical resolve, then entomb a Griselbrand, and get it out of the graveyard with Shallow Grave before the shuffle trigger goes off.

Unless I'm missing some interaction, but I'm pretty sure that you guys are getting the resolving order backwards. If you have another Shallow Grave and mana to cast it before the Surgical resolves, the problem is trivial - you can fizzle Surgical by just getting the creature out with the second Shallow Grave.

[.dk]

Oh geez, you're totally right. Not "you guys" - just me. My bad - ignore my post! Well, most of it anyway. :p

[fluuu]

Why this deck isnt seeing much game? Its insane

[Kathal]

Why this deck isnt seeing much game? Its insane

Cause people do not follow our Lord and Savour Griselbrand.

Greetings,
Kathal

[vieko]

cause people do not follow our lord and savour griselbrand

^^^ truth ^^^

[TTX]

Why this deck isnt seeing much game? Its insane

Because it auto-loses to Chalice of the Void, which has gained popularity recently.
Luckily Tin Fins has quite a bit of hand disruption, but then it comes down to the die roll.


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[Kathal]

Because it auto-loses to Chalice of the Void, which has gained popularity recently.
Luckily Tin Fins has quite a bit of hand disruption, but then it comes down to the die roll.


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#yolo?

However, the Burning Wish version has not a big problem with Chalice, since you can use LED as a discard outlet instead of selfdiscard/entomb and you can win via Wish. So as long as the opp doesn't have a Chalice on 2 it is doable.

Greetings,
Kathal

[.dk]

Mentor hardly cares about Chalice. Just cast your shit as anthems and token makers and kill them anyway.

[fluuu]

Mentor hardly cares about Chalice. Just cast your shit as anthems and token makers and kill them anyway.

Do u think 4 mentors sb are necesary?

[.dk]

If you're going with that transformation I do, and after testing with a few configurations I believe 4 Dark Confidants are as well. Well really, I think you need at least 8 threats. Maybe there is something better than the 3rd and 4th Bobs, but I haven't gotten that far yet.

[vieko]

If you're going with that transformation I do, and after testing with a few configurations I believe 4 Dark Confidants are as well. Well really, I think you need at least 8 threats. Maybe there is something better than the 3rd and 4th Bobs, but I haven't gotten that far yet.

I've been playing around with this transformational sideboard:

MENTORBOARD
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Meddling Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Sensei's Divining Top

So far, so good :) Mainboard is Koby's latest with 1 Surgical + 1 Chain of Vapor in place of 2 Cabal Therapy:

14 LAND
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp

14 CANTRIP
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top

9 FAST MANA
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

8 TO FIELD
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

4 TO GRAVE
4 Entomb

4 TARGET
2 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 DISCARD
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

2 DISRUPT
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain of Vapor

1 STORM
1 Tendrils of Agony

NOTES

• 4 discard seems sufficient when 2 of then can be flashbacked and postboard, you get access to Snapcaster Mage
• Surgical main is awesome: Force your first Vengeance? strip them clean of the rest... Therapy your opponent and make them look silly when they Brainstorm in response :)
• Chain main is awesome too. It hasn't won me games directly but has bought me turns when Tins went cold on me... Also, opens up slots on SB for the second Cavern or Top.
• Seems redundant but... since I've painted myself into corners by not following this bit of popular wisdom, I might as well put it here: good understanding of other Legacy decks is a MUST when playing Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage :)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dropping any number of the most versatile card in your 75 especially if you are playing Mentor in the board feels incredibly like a huge mistake. It's a +2/+2 prowess pump every time, as well as protection and/or disruption depending on what game it is and how you boarded.

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[vieko]

You may be 100% right :) I'll jam some more and let you know how it goes.

Dropping any number of the most versatile card in your 75 especially if you are playing Mentor in the board feels incredibly like a huge mistake. It's a +2/+2 prowess pump every time, as well as protection and/or disruption depending on what game it is and how you boarded.

[kaluma]

So i made an account here to get in on this tin fins forum. :)
anyone else been jamming legacy leagues on MTGO with tin fins? i've played a couple and gone 4-1 both times. This list i've been using is fairly stock, but 2 sensei's tops main (for mentor SB plan, plus not a huge downgrade from ponder), 2 reanimate/ 2 goryo's (budget replacement, but also a little more velocity for 2 mana turn 1 plays), and no tendrils in the list at all (post combat you can almost always get there with hardcast emrakul or rip the opp's hand apart and re-combo next turn. tendrils has some merit, but is also taking up a deck slot that could be a cantrip or something to help get you to your combo more consistently and plays better with the transformation SB.)

MAINDECK
14 lands
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
2 flooded strand
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 island
1 swamp

9 fast mana
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox

10 cantrips
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
2 ponder

4 "tutors"
2 lim-dul's vault
2 sensei's divining top

7 discard
4 cabal therapy
3 thoughtseize

12 combo
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
2 goryo's vengeance
2 reanimate

4 creatures
2 griselbrand
1 emrakul
1 children of korlis

SIDEBOARD
mentor package
4 monastery mentor
3 dark confidant
1 tundra
1 cavern of souls
reactive cards
2 chain of vapor
2 pithing needle
1 duress
1 serenity

mentor sideboard is a lifesaver against hate-heavy decks and miracles (lim-dul for cavern can be game breaking), which is super important in the online metagame. same story with serenity - there's so many chalice decks popping up now that this seems necessary. the other 5 reactive cards are if you don't want to or need to change gears when SB'ing. i could see massacre in there if death and taxes becomes more prevalent this summer with eternal masters etc.

cheers!

[Koby]

I would have never guessed that we could beat Miracles after losing Game 1, but holy shit is Bob/Mentor the tits against their shitty deck. 2-1 vs Miracles after G1 loss. WOW! Suck it Miracles.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How are you boarding?

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