[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Acclimation]

On that Brainstorm, I would have put back Ponder and Rit, then I would have sat on the fetch. No need to break it when we have 2 good spells on top, at the very least I would have waited to draw the Ponder next turn before cracking it. Rebuilding a hand with Ponder, Entomb, Ponder, Dark Ritual is better than rebuilding it with Ponder, Entomb, RANDOM CARD, RANDOM Card.

On game 1, I would have named Spell Pierce with the Cabal Therapy, watching it I was thinking it, and then felt good when it popped up on screen.

[lordofthepit]

Rules question: if you target yourself with Tendrils of Agony, does Children of Korlis see it as 2 life for each copy even though the net change with each copy is zero life?

[Acclimation]

Rules question: if you target yourself with Tendrils of Agony, does Children of Korlis see it as 2 life for each copy even though the net change with each copy is zero life?

"The life you gain is based on the total of all changes where your life total went down during the turn, not the net downward change. So if you lose 5 life, gain 3 life, and then lose 2 more life before activating this ability, the ability causes you gain 7 life, not 4."

I would assume that based on the wording in that sentence on the page for Children of Korlis, specifically "not the net downward change," Children would see that you lost 2 life per copy and would gain you that all back.

[Koby]

I have posted a short article on starting hands for Tin Fins. Maybe we can get some discussion about those hands, playing around hate or disruption, and disuss other

https://mtgkoby.wordpress.com/

[Acclimation]

I enjoyed reading the post.

Here's a hand that I got recently: Petal, Mox, Dark Ritual, Shallow Grave, Cabal Therapy, Underground Sea, Tundra.

Do you keep it?

It has no cantrips, but is either an Entomb or Griselbrand away from winning. Considering how much of our deck is cantrips, we could probably keep this one, especially if we are on the draw (assuming blind). However, it could lead to a very slow game in which our opponent just tears us apart while we spin our wheels topdecking nothing.

So, what did I do? Kept it. Drew Marsh Flats on t2 (sad), then on t3 drew Entomb. My opponent had nothing to stop us, so with plenty of mana, I smashed him that turn.

I think in real games though, keeping such a hand is a poor idea.

[Dela]

I've been away from MTG for awhile, but I'm glad this deck has gotten more popular and the thread is growing. I've still been trying to come up with a SB plan that works.

Using the latest list, (Kobe's) perhaps there is a way to make a grave-less transformation post SB. With some obvious adjustment to the mana base, (Misty Rainforest for Marsh Flats and a Scrubland for a Tropical Island... maybe more adjustment? and another Griselbrand main?) perhaps the following SB could work:

Skill Borrower x4
Show and Tell x4
Worldly Tutor x4 or Slyvan Tutor
Griselbrand x1-2
Chain of Vaporx1-2 or some kind of bounce, perhaps even Abrupt Decay

Yes this is slower than the original graveyard based plan, but it gives the deck an alternate way to cheat in Grisel's draw ability and it still works with Children of Korlis if you can brainstorm them back or tutor them up. It gets around needle naming Griselbrand as well. There is obvious synergy with Lim-Dûl's Vault though that is even slower.

I hope this gets the ideas flowing and perhaps there is something here. If nothing else, there may be a similar deck in the making using Unearth, Cavern of Souls or Aether Vile, or Sensei's Divining Top

[dameus]

Skill Borrower and Griselbrand don't make great friends. You only get a single draw 7 out of the trick.

[Dela]

Skill Borrower and Griselbrand don't make great friends. You only get a single draw 7 out of the trick.

I believe you can maintain priority and put two or more activations on the stack

[Tachikoma]

There's also some cute interactions like reanimating Jin-Gitaxias at the opponent's EOT will mind twist them and also draw you 7 cards at your EOT.

I was playing this in my old BG instant reanimator ... it's fun but it appeared to be more often inferior to just go Griselbrand.
I remember doing it once : reanimated Jin EOT ... then came Swords to Plowshares ... well at least I gained 5 life :)
After beating me the guy said, hey your deck looks fun, do you know Tin Fins ? And here I am now ;)

[Tachikoma]

Here's a hand that I got recently: Petal, Mox, Dark Ritual, Shallow Grave, Cabal Therapy, Underground Sea, Tundra.

Do you keep it?

It has no cantrips, but is either an Entomb or Griselbrand away from winning. Considering how much of our deck is cantrips, we could probably keep this one, especially if we are on the draw (assuming blind). However, it could lead to a very slow game in which our opponent just tears us apart while we spin our wheels topdecking nothing.

I can confirm such things can happen :)
I had pretty much the same hand in a game, kept, saw a Windswept Heath followed by Mother of Runes, thought "mmm probably Maverick do I Cabal for a Shaman ? With the risk of a blank Cabal and then solely rely on topdecking entomb ... " I did not, the Shaman came T2, neither entomb nor Griselbrand came :)

Talking about opening hands is a very good idea ! Thanks Koby :)

What about being on the draw against a deck full of discard ? I often kept "Could have been T1/T2 kill" hands which were T1 seized and then were very slow to recover because short on cantrips.
I'm wondering what would be the "ideal" hand to keep in this situation ...

[Tachikoma]

Just a short report as I'm continuing to bring Tin Fins at my local store every week :)
I'm still stuck at 2-2 each and every week ... and I played quite a bunch of games on Cockatrice, didn't keep the exact count, but it seems very "2-2ey" :)

Latest changes I did went a step further in Phazeonmutant/Koby's deck directions
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Discard (choose to go 3 Cabal/3 Thoughtseize though)
+1 LDV
I tried Sensei's Top to replace my 4th Ponder,
Also tried 1 Stifle which replaced the -1 Cabal

Stifle was not bad, not good, won me some games though, mostly by breaking opponent's plan to disrupt my combo, but it was just because it's strong on its own, not because it's strong in this deck.
Now it's back in the sideboard.
Sensei was quite the same, good because it's good, maybe a bit more as having an instant speed draw is something the deck often really wants, especially for LDV.
All this really feels like changing cards that are good in situation A and B, by others good in situation B and C where A, B and C all happen equally...

The core of the deck is really strong and consistent, and no change seems to really affect that positively or negatively.
But the hate around in the current metagame is really strong and consistent too :)

Quick results
- 2-0 Affinity (Rite of consumption saved my ass again against super fast aggro Cranial Plating start)
- 1-2 Junk
- 1-2 BUG (this and Junk were quite the same : T1 kill, then shaman/ooze + discard, then shaman/ooze + discard ... + surgical)
- 2-0 dredge (The easiest matchup I found so far, we're just faster)

- 2-0 countertop miracle (statistical error, he just had really bad draws, Top got me the 2nd game by drawing a topdeck land needed to go off the same turn as using all my petals to mess around with his counters)
- 1-2 Junk again with a splash of red, this time I was Boros Charmed while drawing with Griselbrand to 4 life ! I'm proud though to have won game 2 after Mulliganing to 3 (Pithing Needle + Griselbrand + Petal ... he played Shaman, I needle it, then I pray the anti-top-deck god I don't draw my reanimation spell before he plays his discard on me ... then he does Hymn to Tourach ! At the time I had 3 cards but he took Griselbrand ! Then I switched back the top-deck god religion and the reanimation came a few turns later :)
- 0-2 Maverick, see my earlier post about keeping the wrong hand :)
- 2-1 weenie white equipment, he can't stop our combo (except by T2 RIP and T3 Canonist ... Serenity didn't come to the rescue :)

I'll keep trying things, next is moving up to 3 LDV, and trying Hapless Researcher, it already has been mentioned here, I like the free instant speed discard/draw effect + having a blocker, a creature to sac to cabal etc ...
I'll tell you if it's another "sometimes good/sometimes bad" idea :)

[Requiem2]

So I just pulled the trigger on getting all the cards I need to join the Tin Fins action. It was a simple transition as I already have the UB reanimator staples. I am really looking forward to playing this at a weekly tourny after many practice rounds on the Decked Builder app I use. Keep up the fine tuning, and game reports they are really nice to read.

[.dk]

So, I haven't been active in a while - life has gotten in the way. And I haven't actually played this deck in a very long time either. :( Regardless...

Koby - thanks for the writeup on opening hands. We should do more of these kinds of things to spur some discussion I think. I do still think that we can have a healthy debate on sideboard strategies as well (not only cards themselves, but also what to take out for them to give you the best chance).

Dela - wouldn't Necrotic Ooze be a better choice than Skill Borrower as a way to get around Needle on Griselbrand? We have an easier time making black mana than Blue, it seems, and Necrotic Ooze isn't an embarrassing beater itself either. That opens up a couple other options to board in Trike/Devourer to get around Storm hate as well. If you do that, there might some other weird lines or cards you can use like Skirge Familliar or something.

Tachikoma - I would be wary going to 3x LDV. You almost never want to see 2 of these as they clog up your hand. If you do, you might consider adding more Chrome Mox so that you can imprint extra LDV to make Underground Seas so they aren't rotting in your hand.

Thanks everyone who have been testing new ideas!

[Dela]

@dk I agree that ooze is better for getting around needle. SB hate is also very good for that. I was mainly trying to come up with a way the deck can transform that doesn't revolve around the graveyard. Still in testing, but I think you may be right that it doesn't fit here however there may be something with skill borrower in its own deck. Just trying to innovate.

[Niggurath]

Hey .dk, sideboard strategies discussion would be awesome, because sometimes I feel like I'm not sideboarding properly against certain decks, specifically against counterbalance decks. I feel like I have to bring in 3x Silences and 2x Serenity, but then I don't know what to sideboard out (usually -3 Gitaxian -1 LDV -1 Reanimate). I'm playing Koby's BoM list, but -1 LDV.

I think the hardest is to sideboard against counters and permanent hate, because you need to side in > 3 cards.

About trying new things, I tried to play with Burning Wish, Rite of Flame and some Cabal Rituals, going all to storm way, and having Reanimate, Buried Alive, Empty the Warrens and another Tendrils at wishboard. This build felt a bit more consistent but slower and less explosive.

[.dk]

@dela absolutely, we need to keep trying to innovate! worth discussing pros/cons. :)

@Niggurath sounds like a good starting place for a discussion to me. For example, that is not how I would be boarding against Counterbalance. Silence is unimpressive in that matchup, in my opinion - they don't usually have a lot of countermagic in hand. We already have enough discard and enough must counter spells that I'm not worried about the counterspells in their hand - just a resolved counterbalance. I don't remember exactly what Koby's sideboard is/was, but given my last build, I would likely be bringing in Serenity (as you did) and possibly Pithing Needle (for SDT) and/or Reverent Silence if I'm running them. My take anyway - I tend to only bring in the Silences for combo matchups.

[Niggurath]

That pithing needle tip against SDT is cool. Well man, maybe it's just me, but I had faced counterbalance decks with tons of counters. I remember one match when opponent's hand was 7 counters (2 daze, fow, 2 spell snare and 2 spell pierce) when I tried to combo. Pretty awful.

My regular rule to side is -1 LDV -1 Gitaxian Probe -1 Reanimate for whatever I want to sideboard in. I hate sideboarding out more than 1 gitaxian probe because the information it gives is invaluable IMO.

So do you don't put in silences not even against Canadian *****?

[.dk]

Actually yes, I do board in Silences vs. Thresh - it's usually the best way to get around Surgical Extraction and Spell Snare. And I would likely board out the single reanimate in that matchup as the lifeloss can be devastating against their clock and burn. We usually make enough mana to play through Daze (and sometimes Spell Pierce), so I'm usually not too worried about those.

[kingsey]

This deck worth picking up these day with RiP and DRS? I love the fact it combos ultra fast, but seems fragile.

[Acclimation]

This deck worth picking up these day with RiP and DRS? I love the fact it combos ultra fast, but seems fragile.

More than worth it. The deck has had a few top 8 showings at various tournaments over the last year.

Deathrite Shaman isn't a huge deal imo, it's slow and can only hit one target.

RiP is rough, but proper Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize and sideboarding can go a long way in beating it.