[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[scottpou]

@scottpou, I'm not familiar with Doomsday piles, but wanna share what kind of piles you build after the sideboard and how they work out? I'm guessing something shelldock isle + emrakul shenanigans.

I only shelldock vs miracles / heavy counter decks. If I don't side in SI, I'll leave in some more discard. Otherwise I just go for Labman & AoI if I'm passing the turn. I just found edge of autumn allows for me to use thoughtseize. The life loss is in the discard rather than the Probes for the win.

I would definitely check out https://ddft.wiki/ but I have also been writing my own notes for what to play when. Maybe I'll submit some piles over there in the future. I really do love conjuror's bauble, but I just can't fit it in here unless I take out 2 probe. A common pass the turn for me would be T2 w/petal or T3 normal is (Edge of Autumn, Act on Impulse, LED, LabMan, Edge of Autumn). You can always play Edge of Autumn in response to a Swords to Plowshares or similar removal spell.

[splorf]

To whom it may concern:

//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Swamp

//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

//Spells
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
2 Animate Dead
2 Collective Brutality
1 Conflagrate
1 Unburial Rites

//Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil

//Creatures
1 Children of Korlis
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

//Sideboard
4 Burning Wish
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 By Force
1 Massacre
1 Vindicate
1 Exhume
3 Sneak Attack
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Liliana is my fun-of, but could easily be a 3rd CB or something else. Nahiri seems odd and expensive, but postboard games tend to be grindy anyway and she gets rid of shid and looks good. This list evolved from an earlier approach of mine to deal with most decks of the meta. Since it features Children and Emrakul, I thought I share it here. Probably someone likes it and want to give it a shot. I really miss Chancellor of the Annex, but Storm wasn't that present recently. It's certainly slower than BR or TinFins, but it also felt very resilient.

[.dk]

I will type up a full report sometime soon, but I went 5-4 at the STG Worcester Open on Saturday. I punted the first and last round. I had the kills, but didn't see it in my hand until it was too late. That's what happens when you haven't played in a big tournament for over a year. I went with a reactive sideboard, and I only used 5 cards all day. So on Sunday, I decided to only play in the first Legacy Challenge due to time constraints with my buddy. I also wanted to just have some fun and burst onions. I should have taken this approach on Saturday because I had so much fun. Everyone stopping to look and cheer for DD is always good fun (except for my opponent). I had a lot of compliments all day, and in only 4 rounds had LM, ToA, & EtW kills in games 2/3. I lost the third round, but I had the kill game 2 after winning the 1st and didn't see the Petal in my hand that I needed. I was pleased with 3-1, and I am going to stick with a DD sideboard. I know Emmy doesn't love LED, but he saved me in several games during the weekend. So after a bit more tweaking and hating the card disadvantage Unmask gives in games 2/3, here's my current list:


// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// 12 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave

// 21 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites (Props to Jblinder)
2 Exhume (Props to Jblinder)

// 7 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 14 Land
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

// 15 Sideboard

1 Exhume
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 By Force
4 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Act on Impulse
2 Edge of Autumn


Sideboarding:
-3 Griselbrand, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Exhume, -1 Unburial Rites
+3 Doomsday, +2 Edge of Autumn, +1 Act on Impulse, +1 Laboratory Maniac, +1 Shelldock Isle

Cool list! Love me some Doomsday transformations (obviously). What do you think about a 1/1 split of Conjurer's Bauble and Edge of Autumn? Bauble has some really cool applications in Doomsday piles, and can also "protect" your graveyard from Surgical.

Another thing to think about is since you've cut Unmask, 4 Griselbrand may be less necessary and going to 3 could free up another slot maindeck (maybe for a Bauble? Seems like a cantrip is better than the 4th LED to me)

[MDHackbert]

Since I didn't know of any existing ones, here is a Tin Fins discord i set up: https://discord.gg/3z4NpZ6

[scottpou]

What do you think about a 1/1 split of Conjurer's Bauble and Edge of Autumn? Bauble has some really cool applications in Doomsday piles, and can also "protect" your graveyard from Surgical.
Another thing to think about is since you've cut Unmask, 4 Griselbrand may be less necessary and going to 3 could free up another slot maindeck (maybe for a Bauble? Seems like a cantrip is better than the 4th LED to me)

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

[scottpou]

Also, I added a Gemstone Mine to the lands for DD just in case piles. If I'm going past turn 3, I'm doing something wrong.

// 14 Land
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gemstone Mine

[Jblinder]

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

You’re quite welcome and thanks for the shout out! Glad it’s been working for you.

[.dk]

1) As I've said before, I LOVE Bauble. I actually used 2 baubles instead of EoA on that Sunday in Worcester, and I truly enjoyed baubling the doomsday to the bottom of the deck in response to a Surgical which I knew he had from Probe. I ended up just keeping a faithless in the pile to make up for the extra card needed to draw. However, I ran into 1 instance where I had to wait a turn to go off because of the 1 mana to cast the Bauble. Hence my tinkering and coming back to EoA as the two slot for finishing the piles. I have been cutting 2 probe for 2 bauble maindeck with negligible impact, but I really enjoy the 4 probe main for game 1. I prefer knowing what my opponent is playing ASAP.

2) I wanted to go back to the good ol' days with 2/3 Gbae's so I tried it. I did not like it and promptly returned to 4. When he is the crux of the biscuit for the whole deck, I want to see him as much as possible. Especially with the nontargeting reanimations + LED and fewer cantrips as Br vs Bu.

3) I have played storm enough to love 4 LEDs. However, I really don't think any more than 3 are necessary in this style. I have been goldfishing 2 LEDs instead of 3 to get a bauble maindeck. I still prefer 3, but it sure is tempting.

P.S. I have to say thank you again to Jblinder because I don't know how many times since the change that I have Burning + LED into Exhume. It's so nice to have that out without a reanimate in hand. Plus with Silent Gravestone's mild use of play, I don't have to worry about it 91% of the time.

Yeah, I don't think I would cut Probe for Bauble. That card is way too good. But, I could see going to 3 Griselbrand for 1 Bauble. You're probably right though, that going down to less makes faithless looting (which is your only search in this deck) a whole lot worse, and you can't bin Griselbrand consistently enough. Out of curiosity, since you're running burning wish, have you considered Buried Alive? Or Past in Flames to be able to flash back entombs that have been countered?

[scottpou]

Out of curiosity, since you're running burning wish, have you considered Buried Alive? Or Past in Flames to be able to flash back entombs that have been countered?

I have tried both. Past worked better than buried alive. However, the sideboard slots are tight. I came to the conclusion that if I'm trying to BW into buried and still combo, those resources are better off going for EtW to kill and/or buy time. In other tests, I took out an exhume for PiF in the main. I still have that on the list to keep testing as I really liked it.

[.dk]

I have tried both. Past worked better than buried alive. However, the sideboard slots are tight. I came to the conclusion that if I'm trying to BW into buried and still combo, those resources are better off going for EtW to kill and/or buy time. In other tests, I took out an exhume for PiF in the main. I still have that on the list to keep testing as I really liked it.

Yeah, that's similar to what we did in Bizarro Stormy. I think if you're playing LED's, it makes a lot of sense to have a PIF as an Entomb target. It's a 7 mana storm line, just like Infernal Tutor -> PIF out of ANT.

/edit: didn't finish my thought process... I agree on Buried Alive, was just curious about your experience. I've been continually unimpressed with it - although I liked it better when testing Mastermind's Acquisition with a bunch of black rituals than I did with Burning Wish. Still never great though. Think I'd prefer Intuition in the main to make cool PIF piles :)

[scottpou]

If I was on blue, I would definitely be trying to fit Intuition in.

[.dk]

If I was on blue, I would definitely be trying to fit Intuition in.

riiiiight i keep forgetting you guys aren't in blue. whoops, my bad

[hovercraft]

You’re quite welcome and thanks for the shout out! Glad it’s been working for you.

Went 4-0 with your list last night at our local Legacy night. Thanks again for the deck, it's super fun to play and has some crazy lines. I played the 4 Living Wish, 4 Thoughtseize version. Only lost 1 game all night, and was able to win a few games despite some misplays on my part.

If anyone is interested in a mini Wish-Fins report:

Round 1 vs Pox:
2-0

G1: He has a T1 Liliana, but I am able to get Griselbrand out on T2 with shallow Grave anyway. I whiff on my draws so I can't go Lab Maniac route, but I am able to get a Marit Laige and a Hexmage out to get around Liliana (I should have just sent Grisel at Liliana, but I thought I wouldn't get the 7 life, first misplay)

G2: A bit grindier, with a lot of discard from both sides. Eventually I'm attacking with a hexmage and a Children, but am able to draw a Dark Depths to finish it off faster.


Round 2 vs Mono Red Prison
2-0

Don't remember these games as clearly, but my opponent mulliganed a lot and had bad draws. I am able to discard some of his hate pieces and clear the way for Marit Laige each game.

Round 3 vs OmniSneak
2-1

G1: My opening hand is Petal, Petal, Stage, Depths, Urborg and something else. I know I am playing against blue but I decide to jam out the T1 Depths and Hexmage anyway, with Stage as a backup for FoW. He brainstorms for a FoW but can't find it.

G2: I mulligan to 6, start off with a thoughtseize to slow him down. I get a Grisel in the yard but he Spell pierces both my attempts to Shallow Grave him on 2 different turns. He gets Emakrul and wins.

G3: I mull to 6 and keep a clunky hand with some discard. I am able to slow him a bit, but he gets a Show and Tell off on T2 or T3. Luckily I had Griselbrand in my hand, so we both lay Griselbrands. On my turn we each draw 14 cards, I start with a dark ritual into thoughtseize. See he has 2 FoW, so I take 1. I then cast Children which he FoWs. But I am then able to Shallow Grave him instead and go off for Lab Maniac kill.

Round 4 vs Maverick

G1:
My opening hand is LED, Swamp, Entomb, Entomb, Entomb, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize. I know I'm not against blue so I go for it, Entomb for both an Unburial Rites and a Griselbrand and get him out T1. On my T2 I Lab Maniac for the win. (I did make another misplay here, I cast Shallow Grave to get my Children back a 2nd time, but I forgot I had discarded a Hexmage on top of it. Luckily I had enough mana to then cast Exhume for the Children instead).

G2: We both start off with some thoughtseizes. He takes my shallow grave, and surgicals it in response to my thoughtseize. I am left with a living wish and no green source. I eventually draw a Stage and then a petal. Wish for Dark Depths and make Marit Laige that turn. He effectively had me at 2 life so I just barely survived.

6 of my 8 wins were Marit Laige (1 after a Griselbrand), 2 were Lab Maniac.

[Kyle]

Obviously it's impossible to tell what the future may bring, but since so many people are dropping Goryo's Vengeance these days, does it make sense for someone to unload (sell) them at this current juncture in history? Thanks to Modern they are $45+ each.

Current strategies are pointing to non-targeting reanimation spells like Shallow Grave, Exhume and exhume, and sometimes Reanimator and/or Animate Dead for redundancy.

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"

[Jblinder]

Went 4-0 with your list last night at our local Legacy night. Thanks again for the deck, it's super fun to play and has some crazy lines. I played the 4 Living Wish, 4 Thoughtseize version. Only lost 1 game all night, and was able to win a few games despite some misplays on my part.

If anyone is interested in a mini Wish-Fins report:

Round 1 vs Pox:
2-0

G1: He has a T1 Liliana, but I am able to get Griselbrand out on T2 with shallow Grave anyway. I whiff on my draws so I can't go Lab Maniac route, but I am able to get a Marit Laige and a Hexmage out to get around Liliana (I should have just sent Grisel at Liliana, but I thought I wouldn't get the 7 life, first misplay)

G2: A bit grindier, with a lot of discard from both sides. Eventually I'm attacking with a hexmage and a Children, but am able to draw a Dark Depths to finish it off faster.


Round 2 vs Mono Red Prison
2-0

Don't remember these games as clearly, but my opponent mulliganed a lot and had bad draws. I am able to discard some of his hate pieces and clear the way for Marit Laige each game.

Round 3 vs OmniSneak
2-1

G1: My opening hand is Petal, Petal, Stage, Depths, Urborg and something else. I know I am playing against blue but I decide to jam out the T1 Depths and Hexmage anyway, with Stage as a backup for FoW. He brainstorms for a FoW but can't find it.

G2: I mulligan to 6, start off with a thoughtseize to slow him down. I get a Grisel in the yard but he Spell pierces both my attempts to Shallow Grave him on 2 different turns. He gets Emakrul and wins.

G3: I mull to 6 and keep a clunky hand with some discard. I am able to slow him a bit, but he gets a Show and Tell off on T2 or T3. Luckily I had Griselbrand in my hand, so we both lay Griselbrands. On my turn we each draw 14 cards, I start with a dark ritual into thoughtseize. See he has 2 FoW, so I take 1. I then cast Children which he FoWs. But I am then able to Shallow Grave him instead and go off for Lab Maniac kill.

Round 4 vs Maverick

G1:
My opening hand is LED, Swamp, Entomb, Entomb, Entomb, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize. I know I'm not against blue so I go for it, Entomb for both an Unburial Rites and a Griselbrand and get him out T1. On my T2 I Lab Maniac for the win. (I did make another misplay here, I cast Shallow Grave to get my Children back a 2nd time, but I forgot I had discarded a Hexmage on top of it. Luckily I had enough mana to then cast Exhume for the Children instead).

G2: We both start off with some thoughtseizes. He takes my shallow grave, and surgicals it in response to my thoughtseize. I am left with a living wish and no green source. I eventually draw a Stage and then a petal. Wish for Dark Depths and make Marit Laige that turn. He effectively had me at 2 life so I just barely survived.

6 of my 8 wins were Marit Laige (1 after a Griselbrand), 2 were Lab Maniac.

Great stuff! Interesting that 6/8 games were Marit Lage. In my experience about 2/3 of games are griselbrand based (maybe 80-85% of those ending in labman). In fact, I was considering testing going down to just one hexmage and replacing the other 2 with collective brutality. This would leave the natural depths plus stage draws in tact, and the rare but occasional entomb for hexmage (or of course drawing the one copy). Brutality is a card I’ve wanted to squeeze in for awhile, and I haven’t been loving the Marit Lage plan as more than a backup. But maybe I’ve just been running cold with that half. Hexmage is probably too important to cut.

[Jblinder]

Obviously it's impossible to tell what the future may bring, but since so many people are dropping Goryo's Vengeance these days, does it make sense for someone to unload (sell) them at this current juncture in history? Thanks to Modern they are $45+ each.

Current strategies are pointing to non-targeting reanimation spells like Shallow Grave, Exhume and exhume, and sometimes Reanimator and/or Animate Dead for redundancy.

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"

With the printing of silent gravestone and the raw power that led provides, I couldn’t see myself running goryos versions of tin fins in the foreseeable future.

Seems like that appears to be nearing the consensus opinion given recent lists from others.

[hovercraft]

Great stuff! Interesting that 6/8 games were Marit Lage. In my experience about 2/3 of games are griselbrand based (maybe 80-85% of those ending in labman). In fact, I was considering testing going down to just one hexmage and replacing the other 2 with collective brutality. This would leave the natural depths plus stage draws in tact, and the rare but occasional entomb for hexmage (or of course drawing the one copy). Brutality is a card I’ve wanted to squeeze in for awhile, and I haven’t been loving the Marit Lage plan as more than a backup. But maybe I’ve just been running cold with that half. Hexmage is probably too important to cut.

Yeah I found it a bit strange how much Marit Laige was my main win con too. In your old non green fins version, and with goldfishing I found Griselbrand is much more common too. A lot of the marit laige routes were after people used discard or counters against me to stop/take away my reanimation combos so that's one factor. I also didn't play against DnT or Miracles. Maverick was the only STP/Karakas deck I played against and he didn't have either card during the 2 games. 3 of my 4 matches were on stream if you are curious: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/251153585 Match 1, 3 and 4. Forgive my misplays and the general chatter, we have a pretty casual legacy group.

I love Collective Brutality as well, but space is definitely tight. I do think you could maybe trim 1 Hexmage(or Stage) and potentially 1/4 Living Wish to test some CBs. I actually ran 18 lands not 19(cut 1 fetch) on Monday too, with the extra card being Unmask #2. This might have helped me draw gas, but I did still mull a lot. I do like how Hexmage can be pitched to Unmask and can sometime just be a planeswalker removal spell.

[NedB37]

As someone still trying to cobble together all the pieces i need for the deck, is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesnt seem (more?) play? Other than the CMC, is there a reason this is strictly worse than say, Goryo's? Just looking for some insight.

If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?

Referring to the non-LED lists that are slightly older.

[scottpou]

Is Goryo's Vengeance "dead?"

I don't think it's dead, but I don't know if it's optimal in this meta. There are just too many instances where you can get screwed from the targeting requirement. *cough* DRS *cough*

is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesn't seem (more?) play? ... If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?

Corpse Dance is awesome, but you can't go Dark Ritual, Entomb, Corpse Dance turn 1. You would need either another Ritual or a Lotus Petal. If you build the mono black list (which doesn't run LED) with Magus of the Will and Cabal Ritual's, I would totally run 2/3 Dances. Otherwise I would just stick with goryo's / exhume / reanimate.

[Acclimation]

As someone still trying to cobble together all the pieces i need for the deck, is there a reason why Corpse Dance doesnt seem (more?) play? Other than the CMC, is there a reason this is strictly worse than say, Goryo's? Just looking for some insight.

If i was to play it (own two copies) then would the build need to change?

Referring to the non-LED lists that are slightly older.

Want to run Corpse Dance? Only own 2?

Well, I have the deck for you! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-Griselbrand)



As far as Goryo's not seeing as much play, 85% of the GY hate played is targeted, and Silent Gravestone has been insane in shutting those down. Since Goryo and Gravestone are a nonbo, people have been playing either the Depths version with Exhume (Tinfinland or Ice Station Zebra) or being extra rad and chaining together Magus of the Mind activations with Bizarro Stormy or running the mono-Black version for some reason.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from rocking a more traditional Tinfins list with Goryo's. Deck is still good, but the meta is a bit friendlier to the other variants right now, in my opinion, because of Silent Gravestone.