[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[jugglervr]

I like to run 8 discard in the main, 4 unmask and 4 therapy, so yeah I would say 6 is a bit on the low end. Honestly, I would probably drop the chrome mox and the tendrils to get up to 2 more discard spells.

After cutting Chancellor, I'm up to 11 discard in the main (since discard is a bit more flexible disruption source than chancellor; if i don't have it T0 and then draw it, that's a punch in the gut)
I don't feel like the deck has enough black to justify 4 unmask. I always feel like I don't want to pitch anything unless i've drawn 14. I'm leaving 2 in because they can occasionally be helpful pre-gris, and are actually very helpful post-gris. I expect them to be a flex slot, for sideboarding, though (since i'd rather have more effective hate early and can live without their flexibility post-gris)
I'm also tentatively taking out tendrils. I still kind of feel like it's an auto-include, BUT i've been whiffing on kids lately, so i'm dropping tendrils for children #2 to make looping more of a guarantee.

With Collective, it may be harder and take some extra time to win, but it does what tendrils does with more. There are very fringe cases that would warrant tendrils the better card. You can argue that looping less times feels better and saves time but I would rather be a little more resilient with another cabal therapy than to win the game a little earlier when I would win anyways.

I'm actually already on 2x collective brutality. The ability to kill a hatebear pre-board has proved to be huge, and the escalation is a nice uncounterable discard outlet that still forces them to counter it, opening the doors to more action.

Green is a good splash for miracles but green and white starts to seem greedy. I'm still advocating for the white splash with mentor transformation. It has been really good against miracles decks while still being able to leave in the combo, granted I do go a little lighter on reanimation spells but the option to just win always remains there.

Tried it. I don't have the mass of cantrips in BR to make mentor good.


Wondering about Silence. It doesn't really seem all that amazing, because it's basically another discard spell in that when you cast it, they HAVE to counter it so it effectively discards a card for them. I get that it's good at stopping combo mid-stroke but it feels medium vs control (esp. with all the discard I'm already running AND with the other cards we need to bring in, like serenity). Can someone change my mind?

[Kobra_D]

After cutting Chancellor, I'm up to 11 discard in the main (since discard is a bit more flexible disruption source than chancellor; if i don't have it T0 and then draw it, that's a punch in the gut)
I don't feel like the deck has enough black to justify 4 unmask. I always feel like I don't want to pitch anything unless i've drawn 14. I'm leaving 2 in because they can occasionally be helpful pre-gris, and are actually very helpful post-gris. I expect them to be a flex slot, for sideboarding, though (since i'd rather have more effective hate early and can live without their flexibility post-gris)
I'm also tentatively taking out tendrils. I still kind of feel like it's an auto-include, BUT i've been whiffing on kids lately, so i'm dropping tendrils for children #2 to make looping more of a guarantee.


I'm actually already on 2x collective brutality. The ability to kill a hatebear pre-board has proved to be huge, and the escalation is a nice uncounterable discard outlet that still forces them to counter it, opening the doors to more action.


Tried it. I don't have the mass of cantrips in BR to make mentor good.


Wondering about Silence. It doesn't really seem all that amazing, because it's basically another discard spell in that when you cast it, they HAVE to counter it so it effectively discards a card for them. I get that it's good at stopping combo mid-stroke but it feels medium vs control (esp. with all the discard I'm already running AND with the other cards we need to bring in, like serenity). Can someone change my mind?

When I first started playing TinFins I inevitably came across CalebD's deck tech and matches on youtube. Whether this was his thought or he was just relaying information that had already been here I remember him saying something along the lines that "both Emrakul and tendrils represent a win-con, you already have Emmy to loop through your deck so tendrils isn't necessary."

Yeah, BR isn't as good for mentor, but the point isn't to break mentor, the point is to stick him early, make a monk or two, and then just beat for a little at a time. The opponent has to answer mentor, answer the ability for us go off, and find a threat to end the game. Although, mentor is a lot better with brainstorms you do have 2 tops which you can always just spin those beyblades to make a few tokens.

I can't stand silence, because I want 1 at most 2, but I only want it pre going off??? It gets weird.

How are you feeling without chancellor? Has 11 discard felt good?

[.dk]

When I first started playing TinFins I inevitably came across CalebD's deck tech and matches on youtube. Whether this was his thought or he was just relaying information that had already been here I remember him saying something along the lines that "both Emrakul and tendrils represent a win-con, you already have Emmy to loop through your deck so tendrils isn't necessary."

At that time, you could make that argument, but it depended on what kind of meta you were playing against. Tendrils was still very good against Death and Taxes, and a hedge against Ensnaring Bridge that you just folded to game 1, or didn't bring the right cards in game 2. I think you could make that argument either way.

Now, however, I don't see an excuse to not run at least 1 Collective Brutality taking the Tendrils slot. It does almost everything Tendrils did, and a lot more obviously.

I can't stand silence, because I want 1 at most 2, but I only want it pre going off??? It gets weird.

Silence is great in certain metas. When decks like Thresh and fast combo are prevalent, Silence is pretty great. I wouldn't run it right now in the current meta.

[jugglervr]

How are you feeling without chancellor? Has 11 discard felt good?

It's felt great! I was always sad to topdeck my first chancellor on t1's draw, but am never sad to see a thoughtseize.
Tested vs bant aggro yesterday. He sided 14 cards against me via the shuffle in method, so i think he removed too much pressure.

[Nocley]

The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

[Richard Cheese]

The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

Why would you bring in Mentor against combo though? Maindeck is generally pretty solid in those matchups so minimal changes are needed.

[Nocley]

Why would you bring in Mentor against combo though? Maindeck is generally pretty solid in those matchups so minimal changes are needed.

I usually don't for G2. But when you see surgicals and other grave hate, I always feel like I need a second plan for when they go against our first win con, since we can't typically rebuild as fast as the other blue based combo decks after the first attempt. The way I've seen the matches play out is that we need to have a T1 with protection, or we probably lose.

[Koby]

I usually don't for G2. But when you see surgicals and other grave hate, I always feel like I need a second plan for when they go against our first win con, since we can't typically rebuild as fast as the other blue based combo decks after the first attempt. The way I've seen the matches play out is that we need to have a T1 with protection, or we probably lose.

If you're facing combo with this regularity, then yes you want Silence to both protect against a surprise Surgical as well as a preemptive disruption.

[Kobra_D]

At that time, you could make that argument, but it depended on what kind of meta you were playing against. Tendrils was still very good against Death and Taxes, and a hedge against Ensnaring Bridge that you just folded to game 1, or didn't bring the right cards in game 2. I think you could make that argument either way.

Now, however, I don't see an excuse to not run at least 1 Collective Brutality taking the Tendrils slot. It does almost everything Tendrils did, and a lot more obviously.

When Brutality was first spoiled I was not only skeptical but actively against the card. It just seemed too slow to do what I want. And as much as I still kind of have that gut feeling towards it, it has been amazing every single time. So, I would definitely agree that having access to at least one helps tremendously. But if you have CoBru in the main, then tendrils serves even less of a purpose. It can save some time when looping, and there is nothing wrong with ToA it's a great win-con, but Emrakul does it anywyas, and CoBru helps with some of the fringe cases as a win-con while the other modes are also good.

Silence is great in certain metas. When decks like Thresh and fast combo are prevalent, Silence is pretty great. I wouldn't run it right now in the current meta.

Granted, silence has its place and I've seen older decklists that ran it in the main. But I've only been playing TinFins for a year and it seems less necessary at the moment.

The real issue I've had with the Mentor SB plan recently is that it just isn't good enough against a lot of other combo lists. Against all fair decks (except the 4c Control/Czech pile) mentor usually can get there by forcing them to dilute their deck enough. But against combo, where we don't have any other disruption for them besides the discard (which using recent builds is lower MD), they only need one thing to disrupt us, and then they typically can combo off before we rebuild. I'm off the Mentor SB for a while, going back to Show and Tell as our setup.

Mentor has been exclusively for miracles and D&T. Miracles finds it hard to fight on the same access, and D&T has sooo much stuff to board in post board that the match up sucks (it does for me at least whose roommate has a D&T SB with about 13 cards to swap).

And so in those 2 match ups I brought in all 4 mentors. D&T has still been annoying so I am trying Dread of night, massacre is a good card but I want something that sticks.

I don't know if I would bring in mentors for combo match ups. Maybe as a 1 of just to have as an out to grave hate, but I would rather board in my disenchant/needle effects to interact with my opponent.

[.dk]

When Brutality was first spoiled I was not only skeptical but actively against the card. It just seemed too slow to do what I want. And as much as I still kind of have that gut feeling towards it, it has been amazing every single time. So, I would definitely agree that having access to at least one helps tremendously. But if you have CoBru in the main, then tendrils serves even less of a purpose. It can save some time when looping, and there is nothing wrong with ToA it's a great win-con, but Emrakul does it anywyas, and CoBru helps with some of the fringe cases as a win-con while the other modes are also good.

Yes, that was my point. Collective Brutality is much better than Tendrils in this deck. Don't run Tendrils.

Granted, silence has its place and I've seen older decklists that ran it in the main. But I've only been playing TinFins for a year and it seems less necessary at the moment.

When the meta game is full of soft counter spells and combo decks, Silence is great. Otherwise, probably not.

Mentor has been exclusively for miracles and D&T. Miracles finds it hard to fight on the same access, and D&T has sooo much stuff to board in post board that the match up sucks (it does for me at least whose roommate has a D&T SB with about 13 cards to swap).

And so in those 2 match ups I brought in all 4 mentors. D&T has still been annoying so I am trying Dread of night, massacre is a good card but I want something that sticks.

I don't know if I would bring in mentors for combo match ups. Maybe as a 1 of just to have as an out to grave hate, but I would rather board in my disenchant/needle effects to interact with my opponent.

What? I don't understand boarding Mentor in against Death and Taxes. It plays into their gameplan - it's slower for us and tougher to cast. They put pressure on our manabase to slow us down. I would much rather stay on the main deck plan and board in some answers for some of their cards (chain of vapor, swords to plowshares, serenity, etc.)

Mentor is awful against other combo decks, unless you're expecting like... 4 Leylines out of them or something incredibly hatful.

[Kobra_D]

Yes, that was my point. Collective Brutality is much better than Tendrils in this deck. Don't run Tendrils.


When the meta game is full of soft counter spells and combo decks, Silence is great. Otherwise, probably not.

What? I don't understand boarding Mentor in against Death and Taxes. It plays into their gameplan - it's slower for us and tougher to cast. They put pressure on our manabase to slow us down. I would much rather stay on the main deck plan and board in some answers for some of their cards (chain of vapor, swords to plowshares, serenity, etc.)

Mentor is awful against other combo decks, unless you're expecting like... 4 Leylines out of them or something incredibly hatful.

Mentor was does help, 4 cards can now completely fight off axis to a D&T play who overboards, but the match up is still hard and I'm now trying dread of night. Massacre's might be best but I didn't want the one time effect.

[Zooligan]

I've been having good results with this, esp vs. Murkels:

1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
3 Collective Brutality

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Reverent Silence

D&T is a nightmare though.

[Kobra_D]

I've been having good results with this, esp vs. Murkels:

1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study

4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
3 Collective Brutality

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Reverent Silence

D&T is a nightmare though.

The sideboard looks like it is set up mostly for control decks, and then 3 faerie macabre for other combo like reanimator, storm, dredge?

You could go -3 Faerie, -1 veil, +4 massacre. D&T becomes much better, granted, the combo match up is worse.

[Zooligan]

The sideboard looks like it is set up mostly for control decks, and then 3 faerie macabre for other combo like reanimator, storm, dredge?

You could go -3 Faerie, -1 veil, +4 massacre. D&T becomes much better, granted, the combo match up is worse.

With BR Reanimator on the rise I think the Macabre is essential. Having Veil early is nice in the miracle matchup. Idk I guess you gotta pick your battles. I think I'd cut the Rev Silence before the Macabre, but with BR on such a tear I'm thinking more Leylines will start showing up. Right now I'm seeing more Delver and D&T than stuff I need Rev for. I'm up for suggestions.

I'm considering replacing the Revs with some number of Echoing Truth to bounce leylines and other multiple non-enchantment problems (Deathrite I'm lookin at you) but that's a big mana difference.

[splorf]

Anyone ever considered Insolent Neonate in the spot of Looting? Instant discard end of turn with Shallow Grave lets Emrakul moonwalk onto the board. Probably it could even make Cabal Therapy viable? Requires sth. like SDT to dig for spells though.

[MDHackbert]

I played in a 21-man GPT for Vegas byes yesterday. 5 rounds, cut to top 8. I went 3-2 and made it in as the 7th seed as i had the best breakers of all the 6 pointers going into round 5 and i beat the pair-up there. I made it to top 4, but lost in G3 where i made a judgement call that i could pass the turn at 30 life and finish him next turn. I was a bit sloppy in that execution and i put myself in a situation where i couldn't play around the karakas he had once he topdecked a smasher. He had 2 mimics on board, and i likely could have killed them and also done another round of children and finished with dreams after passing. The 15 life loss squeezed me too hard.

Rd. 1, W, 2-1, Death and Taxes
Rd. 2, W, 2-0, Eldrazi Stompy
Rd. 3, L, 1-2, Miracles
Rd. 4, L, 1-2, Czech Pile
Rd. 5, W, 2-0, Burn

Top 8, W, 2-1, Miracles (same player from swiss)
Top 4, L, 1-2, Eldrazi Stompy (different player from one in swiss)

The deck i played was as follows:

Creatures:10
1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Lands:13
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Massacre
2 Gemstone Caverns

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

[Kobra_D]

I played in a 21-man GPT for Vegas byes yesterday. 5 rounds, cut to top 8. I went 3-2 and made it in as the 7th seed as i had the best breakers of all the 6 pointers going into round 5 and i beat the pair-up there. I made it to top 4, but lost in G3 where i made a judgement call that i could pass the turn at 30 life and finish him next turn. I was a bit sloppy in that execution and i put myself in a situation where i couldn't play around the karakas he had once he topdecked a smasher. He had 2 mimics on board, and i likely could have killed them and also done another round of children and finished with dreams after passing. The 15 life loss squeezed me too hard.

Rd. 1, W, 2-1, Death and Taxes
Rd. 2, W, 2-0, Eldrazi Stompy
Rd. 3, L, 1-2, Miracles
Rd. 4, L, 1-2, Czech Pile
Rd. 5, W, 2-0, Burn

Top 8, W, 2-1, Miracles (same player from swiss)
Top 4, L, 1-2, Eldrazi Stompy (different player from one in swiss)

The deck i played was as follows:

Creatures:10
1 Children of Korlis
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:37
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
3 Unmask

Lands:13
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
2 Sickening Dreams
2 Massacre
2 Gemstone Caverns

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Gemstone Cavern?

What brought you to this?

Life loss ins't great but why not just go for a rainbow land like city of brass or temporary land like tendo ice bridge. They always provide color fixing where cavern could legitimately be a wastes.

[MDHackbert]

@Caverns
Several pages back, someone had a spoils of the vault list with it and i was intrigued. Having played 10 matches with it so far, I have had it matter a negligible number of times. I usually straight swap 2 swamps out on the draw for Caverns 3-4 to increase the visibility and "steal the play back". I have never had an issue where it tapping for only colorless was an issue. The only busted start i can remember was using it on the draw to shallow a G-Dad against burn on their EoT1. I'm not sold I like it and would likely rather have (in the main) either 2 more fetches, or a fetch and a scrubland. This would free up SB space for anything else as well.

[Jblinder]

@Caverns
Several pages back, someone had a spoils of the vault list with it and i was intrigued. Having played 10 matches with it so far, I have had it matter a negligible number of times. I usually straight swap 2 swamps out on the draw for Caverns 3-4 to increase the visibility and "steal the play back". I have never had an issue where it tapping for only colorless was an issue. The only busted start i can remember was using it on the draw to shallow a G-Dad against burn on their EoT1. I'm not sold I like it and would likely rather have (in the main) either 2 more fetches, or a fetch and a scrubland. This would free up SB space for anything else as well.

One reason I was playing Caverns in that build is because I had to play Pull from Eternity in the main (mandatory as Spoils can easily exile the Emrakul leaving me few paths to victory without Pull). Caverns not only "steals the play" in that list but can also proactively Exile Griselbrand. It's a pretty marginal card even with the Pull interaction imo, but it's obviously sweet (in the fun sense if not the competitive sense) so glad you're trying it.

I did have a really sick play with it once on mtgo against a guy who had played Extirpate on me post SB in a previous match. In game 2 I ran the turn zero make Griselbrand off dark ritual and entomb/grave. Drew 14 on his end step and while I couldn't find the turn 1 win, the 14 cards were enough to get there on turn 2 or 3 after stripping his hand. And he had the Extirpate! Felt good. Felt really good.

That spoils build is really bad, but it is super fun when it works.

[Ingo]

That spoils build is really bad, but it is super fun when it works.

Ever since you mentioned Spoils of the vault though (not sure if it was you, it was some pages ago), I've been intrigued by the card.

Let's say Spoils will kill you 1 in 5 games (just an example, Im no good at statistics). As reanimator-versions have a very high game1 killrate, Spoils would lower the game1 killrate as it would make you loose 1 on 5 games you'd otherwise won. So not worth it in game1.

However, reanimatorversions usually have a much worse game2, with your opponent boarding in the hate and mull for counters and deathrite. And at the same time, your deck becomes less consistent as you board in counterhate. So spoils might be an interesting postboard card, as it could be a tutor for a combopiece but also for a counterhatecard (like 1 of the 4 decays you boarded in), raising consistency and means to deal with opposing hate.
So maybe, in unfavorable matchups and in postboard games, the gains of having a 1-mana tutor for any of your 4-of cards, outweighs the fact that it will kill you in 1/5th of the games. You'd have to evaluate if the massive lifeloss is compatible though with Tin-Fins, which wants to win in the same turn (and needs life to pay for grisel activations) or BR Reanimator (which runs Reanimate).

I found two decks on mtgtop8 running Spoils as a sideboard card, both Oops All Spells with a transformational sideboardplan into Belcher. These combodecks do not have any lifeloss-effects besides spoils, but ofcourse TinFIns and Br Rea do. A reanimatorversion based on LED-Grisel-UnburialRites (as in Burning Reanimator) however can afford to wait a turn to pay life for a Griseldraw (in comparison to Tin-Fins), or does not run Reanimate (in comparison to Br Rea).
This is just theorycrafting though, too bad Im no good at maths or I'd try to calculate some statistics to determinate how bad a matchup should be, to make Spoils a worthwhile card to board in.

EDIT: Couldn't resist and googled the formula.
HYPGEOMDIST(0;15;4;52) is the chance of not (the zero in the formula) finding any one of 4 copies out of 15 draws with 52 cards (T1 on the draw), or 24,4%. I took 15 draws as it would take you to 5 remaining life, which seems a minimum in between fetching a land and being bolted (there's 15,11% chance of paying 19 life and not finding what you named).