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  1. #1
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    [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst


    You'll wish you had less fun!


    1. Overview
    2. The Name
    3. Core Cards
    4. Sideboards and Sideboarding
    5. Unsuccessful Ideas
    6. Tips and Tricks
    7. Why not just play ______?
    8. Matchup Analysis
    9. Coverage, Results, and Decklists
    10. Thanks


    The Name

    Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. Still Confused?



    Grizzlebee's Introduces the Onion Burst
    Take It from 'Ol Hank Murphy
    Grizzlebees Burst Meal with TinFins Toys

    It's a Sealab 2021 Reference. Good? Good. If you aren't familiar with Sealab, go watch the entire series for free on the Adult Swim site.


    Overview
    TinFins is a Reanimator / Storm hybrid built around Griselbrand. It aims to reanimate Griselbrand with haste using either Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengeance, then draw enough cards to reanimate Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and swing for 22 or generate enough storm for a lethal Tendrils of Agony. Children of Korlis is used to enable additional Griselbrand activations and greatly increase the consistency of both win conditions. It is a fairly consistent turn 1-3 combo, often with protection.

    The strengths of the deck are its redundancy, speed, and the low resource investment needed to combo off, but its reliance on the graveyard makes it susceptible to a variety of hate cards, especially when backed up by counter magic.


    Core Cards


    1 Children of Korlis
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2-4 Griselbrand
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    4 Brainstorm
    3-4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    0-2 Lim-dul's Vault

    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    1 Reanimate

    4 Cabal Therapy
    0-1 Silence
    2-4 Thoughtseize

    1-2 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    1 Tundra/Island
    2-3 Underground Sea


    Wincons:
    Griselbrand - Draw engine, wincon, reduces storm count by 3, has axes for hands.
    Emrakul - Primarily a win condition, but also used for his shuffle effect in conjunction with Children to generate mana and storm count for the Tendrils win. Rarely, he can also act as an emergency board sweeper.
    Children of Korlis - Cheap, tutorable with Entomb, and because of the wording it can combine with Emrakul's shuffle effect to give you infinite draws, life, and storm count.
    Tendrils - The argument has been made many times to drop it, but as a singleton it is generally worth it to have a way to win outside the attack step. Can also be used in a pinch to stay in the game or enable more Griselbrand activations.

    Enablers:
    These are all self explanatory. The full set of Shallow Grave is played over Goryo's because it can reanimate Children, and it doesn't target, which makes it easier to play around hate.

    Protection:
    We choose discard that can target any player because it allows us to use it as another way to get one of our creatures in the yard. While not the ideal situation, it does make us less dependent on resolving Entomb, and thereby more resilient to counters and discard.

    Mana:
    Most commonly, the deck plays 8 fetches with 5-6 mana-producing lands, including a basic Swamp and sometimes a basic Island. This gives us good resiliency to Wasteland, with plenty of shuffle effects to maximize the usefulness of Brainstorm.
    Petals, and Ritual play the usual storm roles. Chrome Mox is a concession to the need to have additional mana sources after activating Griselbrand. Some lists run 2, others a 1/1 split with Mox Diamond.


    Sideboards and Sideboarding
    The sideboard is still the greatest point of contention. Fighting hate without giving up consistency or just becoming a bad version of something else has proven to be somewhat of a challenge. The options generally involve protection against hate, transformation to a different combo/wincon, or some combination of the two. Note that some lists run a 14-card sideboard and a 61-card main deck.

    Reactive
    Probably the most common sideboard strategy. It requires knowing what hate you are likely to face from a given opponent/deck, and brings in specific answers for it. An average reactive board looks like this:

    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Massacre
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Serenity
    3 Silence
    2-3 Surgical Extraction

    The most common cards to cut for a reactive board are Probes, LDV, and Reanimate. You typically don't want to bring in more than 4-5 cards, as any more than that will water down the deck to the point of making it too inconsistent. This limitation is probably the biggest downside to a reactive strategy, as beating opponents with a wide variety of hate cards becomes extremely difficult.

    Reactive board discussion and strategy - Thanks Acclimation!

    Doomsday
    Doomsday takes advantage of boarded grave hate, is very compact, and offers multiple win conditions (Shelldock/Emrakul or Tendrils). Doomsday is a card that can be difficult to use effectively, but offers a high degree of flexibility in return. Practice is highly suggested.


    1 Shelldock Isle
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Ideas Unbound
    4 Doomsday

    Doomsday board primer/discussion -Thanks .dk!

    Historical and Theoretical Transformations

    Show and Tell - Loses a lot of redundancy, and still folds to counter + Surgical, so the rest of the board is generally countermagic devoted to winning on the stack, then protecting your beater for a few turns. Pithing Needle is required to beat Jace and Karakas. Show and Tell can also be used as an addition reactive boards, as an out to decks that pack a lot of graveyard hate.

    Painter's Servant/Grindstone - Compact, low mana requirement, no reliance on the yard. Also lets you run Blue Blasts in the board as protection, or possibly Red blasts, with a lot of manabase tweaking. Vulnerable to some anti-Griselbrand hate like Pithing Needle. Also doesn't work against opponents running Emrakul.

    Ad Nauseum - The OG transformational board. Hopes to take advantage of opponents boarding in grave hate, but becomes more vulnerable to countermagic due to relying on LED/Infernal Tutor. Also soft to anti-storm hatebears like Thalia, Teeg, and Canonist.

    The Man Plan - Run a bunch of efficient, evasive beaters like Delver of Secrets, Tombstalker Bitterblossom, and Serendib Efreet. Not graveyard dependent, but even 15 creatures isn't a lot, and can be incidentally hated out by things like Humility, Energy Field, or just anyone with a better clock. Nobody has ever actually tried this.

    15x Shadowborn Apostle - #YOLO

    Unsuccessful Ideas
    These are things that have been tried in the past, but just haven't worked out very well. If you're going to bring one of these up for discussion, please do some testing first to make sure you aren't just beating a dead horse.

    Burning Wish - There have been builds in the past splashing red specifically for Burning Wish and a Sneak Attack transformation out of the sideboard. While it does enable us to have answers to hate in game 1, the mana cost and Sorcery speed have just made it a very clunky and slow addition in the past, and that was before we ran White for Children.

    Laboratory Maniac - An alternative to Tendrils. It seems slightly cheaper to cast at first glance, but generally requires at least two Children activations to win, so it's not that cheap, is more restrictive, and is a pretty dead card on its own.

    Lion's Eye Diamond - It can act as a discard outlet, makes a ton of mana, and enables Infernal Tutor. Unfortunately, it forces you to go all in on your combo turn reducing the benefit of the redundancy in reanimation spells that this deck runs. Additionally, the extra mana provided has proven to be of marginal use as the mana requirements to combo off with this deck are quite low.

    Daze/Force of Will - Counters can be better than discard in a lot of situations, but in this deck they don't help get Griselbrand in the yard, and we usually don't have the blue count for Force

    Grim Tutor/Infernal Tutor - Tin Fins is redundant enough with 7-8 reanimation spells that tutors such as these have been found to be unnecessary. Your filter spells are generally sufficient to find the pieces that you need.

    Cunning Wish - Even though it's already on-color and can be cast on an opponent's turn to somewhat offset the extra cost, 3 mana is still a lot for a deck that only runs 13 land.


    Tips and Tricks
    Getting Griselbrand in the yard - The most obvious way is via Entomb, but you can also target yourself with discard, or just draw until you have 8 cards and discard him at end of turn.

    Reanimating Emrakul - Goryo's Vengeance and Shallow grave are Instants, letting you put Emrakul into play in response to his shuffle trigger going on the stack.

    Reanimating during opponent's end step - Both instant reanimation spells exile the target at the beginning of the next end step. Reanimating during your opponent's end step will give you that creature until the beginning of your end step, allowing you to have more mana available during your turn.

    Playing around hate - Surgical, Crypt, Deathrite, and other exile effects can all be played around, either by casting another reanimation spell in response, or in the case of Shallow Grave, letting the exile effect resolve and casting Entomb with Grave still on the stack. Finally, Entomb can be used to grab Emrakul to effectively counter these effects in a pinch.

    Children of Korlis - Can fog for a turn, or beat other Tendrils decks. Let as many copies of Tendrils resolve as possible, sac them to gain all your life back, live to fight another day.

    Going Infinite - Children of Korlis will usually give you enough additional Griselbrand activations to find another reanimation spell to bring back Children with. At this point you most likely have enough life to draw more cards than you have left in your deck (Children only cares about the life lost so far in the turn, not the net gain/loss, so after 2 Griselbrand activations, you gain 14, after 2 more you gain 28, and so on). Now you can draw until you have 6 or fewer cards left, play out all your mana sources, and then Entomb or Therapy/Thoughtseize away Emrakul to shuffle your graveyard into your libary. Continue to reanimate and sac Children, drawing mana sources and business over and over and shuffling with Emrakul when necessary to generate infinite life, storm, and mana. Then, just to rub it in, hardcast Emrakul and go to discard.


    Why not just play ______?
    • Reanimator: TinFins is faster, by a lot, and does not really care about Karakas or creature removal.
    • ANT: We play a similar protection suite, but can generally combo earlier, and with less mana. We also don't need to go all-in on Infernal Tutor/LED, so we can simply run multiple reanimation spells into counters until one resolves. The downside is having to fight through much better and more varied hate post-board, although AnT has recently become somewhat reliant on the graveyard too, as Past In Flames becomes the primary combo engine.
    • TES: Tinfins has a better manabase, and again we don't need to commit our entire hand to Infernal Tutor. Speed is similar though, and Burning Wish provides TES a ton of options for answering hate without diluting the deck.
    • Belcher: We're just about as fast, but we actually have protection, and don't need to dump our entire hand to combo off.
    • Sneak/Show: Again, we're faster and we win the turn we land Griselbrand. We're also a lot more resilient to discard.
    • Dredge: We lose to a lot of the same hate, but we have better potential for a transformative sideboard, and the ability to win as soon as we deal with hate, rather than needing to re-establish our graveyard.



    Matchup Analysis
    Generally, TinFins has a similar matchup against the field as AnT. Tempo decks are the most difficult because of their counter-suite combined with a quick clock. BUG especially because of the presence of maindeck Deathrite Shaman.

    Miracles is also tough, but moreso post-board because of the amount and variety of hate they have access to (Rest In Peace, Karakas, Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle). Similar story with Deathblade, but possibly more difficult due to maindeck Deathrite.

    Death and Taxes can be troublesome, but they have no turn 0/1 interaction, and Massacre is brutal postboard.

    Anything else without counters is generally a cakewalk.

    Other combo decks are usually slower, and we have silence in the board.

    Update, March 5th 2018:
    Given the current popularity of BUG Delver, BUG Control, Czech Pile, and Grixis Delver, thecrav was kind enough to prepare this excellent visual representation of the current meta:



    Coverage, Results, and Decklists
    Coverage:
    Carsten Kotter's Article on SCG
    Caleb Durward's Article on ChannelFireball
    Deck Tech with Greg Mitchell (phazonmuant)

    Games:
    SCG Atlanta 2013 - Greg Mitchell Round 5, Legacy
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/363601431?t=6h56m

    SCG Cincinnati - Caleb Durward Round 6, Legacy
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/368418943?t=3h25m

    SCG Las Vegas 2013 - Jacob Kory
    Round 7
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=3h55m
    Quarterfinals
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=6h42m
    Finals
    http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/373519422?t=9h3m

    MTGO Streaming Legacy Daily - Jacob Kory
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/366844881
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/369271763
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/371412000
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/371766972
    http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/374336353

    MTGO Legacy Matches - Caleb Durward
    http://www.channelfireball.com/video...ins-matches/#1


    Results and Decklists
    Josh Bingaman - 58th place, Grand Prix New Jersey (2014-11-16): Report

    Max Martinez - 15th place, SCG Oakland (2014-11-2):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15152&iddeck=112440

    Logan Creen - 8th place, SCG St. Louis (2013-06-09):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80871

    Chad Warford - 14th, SCG Seattle (2013-04-21):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10720&iddeck=78247

    Jacob Kory - 2nd place, SCG Las Vegas (2012-03-03):
    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10299&iddeck=75048

    Caleb Durward - 18th place, SCG Cincinnati (2013-02-17):
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Children of Korlis
    4 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Reanimate
    4 Entomb
    3 Careful Study
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Underground Sea

    // Sideboard
    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Deathmark
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Duress
    3 Blue Elemental Blast

    Greg Mitchell - 34th Place, SCG Atlanta (2013-02-12): Report

    Josh Bingaman - 86th place, GP Atlanta (2012-07-01): Report


    Thanks
    Many, many thanks go out to .dk and Phazonmuant for contributing so much to this primer. What I didn't outright steal, I used for ideas and inspiration, and there's still a ton of content I haven't included yet. Also many thanks to those two for keeping the thread and the dream alive in the early days, and for continuing to be great contributors to the thread as the popularity has taken off.

    Thanks go to Dela for seeing the potential in Children of Korlis, and .dk for taking the time to test it.

    Many thanks to CalebD and Koby for all the publicity and the great results, and thanks to Cedric Phillips for actually reading a Sealab episode synopsis on air.

    Lastly, thanks to everyone who has contributed to the thread. We've had some great ideas, and the discussion has been civil and productive so far. This is my favorite thread on The Source, and not just because I started it.

    "This deck has everything going for it" - Koby
    Last edited by Richard Cheese; 03-05-2018 at 06:07 PM.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  2. #2

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I have not yet read the list, I just wanted to tell you that I grossly appreciate the name and LOL'd irl.

    Ty. Thoughts to come.

    Thoughts to come: that list looks pretty sweet. I like it. Grizzlebee's should always connect on turn 1-2 and if he doesn't you still gain a lot of life to activate his draw 7 enough times to win anyways.

  3. #3
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I've tried something similar but with LED, S&T, and Thoughtseize. Results haven't been spectacular. Also, I really want Soul spike to work but it doesn't. I may try your build.

  4. #4
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    So you're essentially getting Griselbrand into play for cheap reanimator-style so you can draw a buttload of cards and storm into Tendrils FTW. If you fizzle a little bit, you just tendrils for what you got and start again. It loses you less life than Ad Nauseam and Grizzle works fantastic as a secondary 'attack you and win' with a 3-turn clock, should you draw into 3 Grizzles (which you should drawing that many cards...)

    I have to say, it's nothing if not elegant. I really like how Footsteps and Shallow Grave give the guy haste...so if you connect, the first 7 cards are 'free.' If you can't win after drawing 14 more, I would say that you're just the unluckiest guy on earth. But in reality, luck has nothing to do with it. With a 25 card hand you'll be able to do some crazy shit.

    Honestly, this reminds me of Necropotence. Draw a ton of cards and gain some life to stay in the game (or just win from having so many cards available.) I like this better than Grizzle-Reanimator, for sure.
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  5. #5
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Playtested a bit this weekend, deck seems like the real deal. Unfortunately didn't get to test post-board much, but pre-board it's a house. Of course it can poop itself like all combo decks (3 Ponder, 2 Careful Study no Grizzlebee?!), but overall it's very consistent.

    I'm still not convinced one way or the other on discard vs. counters, but the amount of protection actually feels alright. Not committing your entire hand to comboing off is bigger than I expected, and lets you put so much pressure on that it's hard for control decks to keep up.

    So far the worst matchups have been RUG and Merfolk (with Chalice), as one might expect for a combo deck that depends on its life total. Chalice in general is a bitch. Conceivably it could be played around in the same way as Teeg, just reanimating and setting up another reanimation before EoT, but that's like saying a car still technically works without an engine because you can roll downhill.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  6. #6

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm so glad to see someone else doing this! I've been tuning a smilar list for a few months (ever since I saw Griselbrand in the spoiler). Here's the list:

    4 Griselbrand
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Entomb
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Unmask
    2 Ponder or Duress
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Underground Sea

    SB:
    4 Pull from Eternity
    4 Chain of Vapor
    2 Deathmark
    2 Massacre
    1 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    The major differences I see is the protection. I prefer unmask because it is, in a round about way, free and can target myself. It also forces you hellbent in the event of needing to infernal tutor. Having LED main can let you crack in in response to shallow grave of he's abandoned in your hand. Pull from eternity in the side allows you to "next level" the usual graveyard hate. The deck is very powerful, it needs some time to be refined, but I have a lot of faith in the power level.
    Last edited by Jander78; 06-26-2012 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Fixed cards tags.

  7. #7

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    First things first: the name:
    Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. If you don't get it, I can't help you.
    I'm sure you can give us more than that.

    Please?



    Also, have you guys noticed the prices on Shallow Graves? The last ebay listing closed at $45 for a playset, and the only set available now is at $100 for the four. That deserves a pat on the back.

    Goryo's Vengeance is starting to pick up as well (you can find them for around $3 each, but a few months ago they were $1 to 2), so if anybody that hasn't gotten them, you probably want to get on that soon.

  8. #8
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammunition View Post
    I'm sure you can give us more than that.

    Please?



    Also, have you guys noticed the prices on Shallow Graves? The last ebay listing closed at $45 for a playset, and the only set available now is at $100 for the four. That deserves a pat on the back.

    Goryo's Vengeance is starting to pick up as well (you can find them for around $3 each, but a few months ago they were $1 to 2), so if anybody that hasn't gotten them, you probably want to get on that soon.
    Check this out: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0696982/
    Google "tinfins" and see what comes up. :)

    New primer should have a link to the trailer...

    Pretty hilarious about the price of Shallow Graves, isn't it? go go reserved list? :/

    @phazonmuant - funny report, and hilarious list. Was trying to find some way to fit Pull and Powder into a list, but couldn't do it without cutting too much business. You might be right that cutting blue is the only way - Spoils sound pretty much awesome for that, btw.

    The second list you posted is interested - but I'm not sure why the move from 2 Reanimate to 1 + Exhume when you've weakened your manabase to wasteland. The ponder/study split seems reasonable as well as cutting down on Thoughtseize. My current list that I keep meaning to test has the 2/2 split right now as well, just to test out if nothing else. Silence seems odd to me - wouldn't we just be better off running countermagic? We're better at making blue than white.

    I may end up bringing the deck to my local this weekend rather than DDFT for a change, so we'll see how it does there.
    Find me on Twitter: @beanaman

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  9. #9
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    funny report, and hilarious list. Was trying to find some way to fit Pull and Powder into a list, but couldn't do it without cutting too much business. You might be right that cutting blue is the only way - Spoils sound pretty much awesome for that, btw.

    The second list you posted is interested - but I'm not sure why the move from 2 Reanimate to 1 + Exhume when you've weakened your manabase to wasteland. The ponder/study split seems reasonable as well as cutting down on Thoughtseize. My current list that I keep meaning to test has the 2/2 split right now as well, just to test out if nothing else. Silence seems odd to me - wouldn't we just be better off running countermagic? We're better at making blue than white.
    Haha thanks. Credit to alphastryk for terrible ideas *ahem* Spoils of the Vault.

    Exhume vs. Reanimate - fair point. I just wanted to see how often Pull + Shallow Grave / Exhume would come up. Probably too cute.
    I think Silence is better than countermagic. The manabase I posted is about as good at making W as U, and we have Petals and more W cards to pin now. Silence is better for 2 reasons - it forces them to react right then, so you don't have to fully commit, and it stops Surgical shenanigans so they can only interact with you with counterspells. Our own counterspells would be stretched trying to deal with both grave hate and permission.
    Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.

  10. #10
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Haha thanks. Credit to alphastryk for terrible ideas *ahem* Spoils of the Vault.

    Exhume vs. Reanimate - fair point. I just wanted to see how often Pull + Shallow Grave / Exhume would come up. Probably too cute.
    I think Silence is better than countermagic. The manabase I posted is about as good at making W as U, and we have Petals and more W cards to pin now. Silence is better for 2 reasons - it forces them to react right then, so you don't have to fully commit, and it stops Surgical shenanigans so they can only interact with you with counterspells. Our own counterspells would be stretched trying to deal with both grave hate and permission.
    Ah yeah, I guess you can do the Exhume thing and Pull in response, as you said, like we do with Shallow Grave. That seems like a good enough reason, actually. Maybe not too cute - worth testing. :)

    You're right that in some matchups that Silence is insane - but a good counterspell suite can also deal with other grave hate (permanents) that come down earlier. Depends on the meta I suppose - Silence trumps stack wars. I definitely like both, there have just been enough times where I've been unimpressed with Silence in this deck that I'm a little turned off. I do like that it gives you something to pin under Chrome Mox as well to cast Children - I did that out of the sideboard back in December quite a bit when I ran Silence/Chant in the sideboard along with Show and Tells. Made the Show and Tell plan into casting Children to still storm out much more viable (or, the Hot Carl plan, as you call it). :)
    Find me on Twitter: @beanaman

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  11. #11

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Re: shallow grave $ increase

    glad i jumped on that when i did! holy moly!

  12. #12

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I wouldn't play TA until I had at least 3 TNN in hand. I don't really fizzle any more, after a little math I have come to realize that if you have to attack with grizzly, you have essentially become a storm player. I at that point only have to hit (generally) about 4-5 storm to win.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

    EDIT: Did some testing last night, Stax and Dragon Stompy are bad matchups. lol. I did win twice...Suppression Field should be a thing. It's frickin' stupid.
    Last edited by Secretly.A.Bee; 11-01-2013 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Even the best can be beaten:

  14. #14

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    At the moment without taking the silence out of the main deck it looks as follows:

    3 S. Extraction
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Chain of Vapor
    3 Silence
    3 Serenity

    It's hugely generic feeling but so far it feels good overall. This is an attempt to make my main Deck better for my really fair meta.

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    Edit: I forget if SCM has been tried. It gives options to discarded or countered entombs and other combo pieces along with a better ability to flashback therapy along with its target. I think it has good synergy and application here. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Secretly.A.Bee; 11-07-2013 at 04:20 AM.

  15. #15
    Sir Phobos
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    You could probably cut a Serenity. 2 has felt fine for me, and with LDV & our cantrips, finding one should be no problem.

    That being said, I don't know how often you run into decks that require Serenity, so 3 could be very necessary.


    In general, you could get away with cutting 1 of any sideboard slot besides Silence, due to how Chain overlaps with most of our hate, barring Surgical and Silence, and Surgical is less needed than Silence.
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  16. #16

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Needle has been least useful for me. What do you use it against? DRS and...? Can't come up with much else. May drop that to 2. Other option is Extraction. I edited above as well.

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  17. #17
    Sir Phobos
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Needle has been least useful for me. What do you use it against? DRS and...? Can't come up with much else. May drop that to 2. Other option is Extraction. I edited above as well.

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    Needle hits DRS, Liliana, JTMS, Karakas, Sneak Attack, Isochron Scepter (some times you run into Scepter decks if you have a bad day and enter the "jungle"), Mangara, Scavenging Ooze, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic, Sensei's Divining Top, Tormod's Crypt, Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary, Thespian's Stage, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vial, and many more.

    Out of all of those, the only one I haven't had to name are Scepter (never in the Jungle!) and Thespian's Stage (don't play against enough lands). The rest of these are potential threats that can wreck our day pretty easily, but for the low cost of 1 mana, we can turn them off and do the monster mash.


    As for Snapcaster Mage, while I've always liked the idea of having it as a utility spell, I feel as though the mana requirements are too much. It's making our spells cost 3 cmc at a minimum, which can be difficult for our deck. It can also mess up our Shallow Graves (well timed removal, for example).

    I feel as though the mana requirements are the biggest strike against SCM. It's an interesting suggestion that can give us a lot of options, but it requires a cut to be made, and what do we cut out of an already tight list?



    Out of curiosity, what decks are you running into, what comprises this "fair" meta of yours? I want to better understand the situation to make better suggestions.
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  18. #18

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I play against stax, esperblade, elves, dredge, SnT, and JunkBlade. Stax, blade variants, elves mainly, though.

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  19. #19
    Sir Phobos
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I play against stax, esperblade, elves, dredge, SnT, and JunkBlade. Stax, blade variants, elves mainly, though.

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    I retract my suggestion of cutting a Serenity.

    If you feel that your Dredge match-up is as good with 2 Extractions instead of 3, then I think you can get away with that cut.

    Needle seems like it can hit a lot of things in that meta, between equipment, to spell lands, to various hate bears and hate trinkets. Chain I could see getting a cut, since it does overlap with a lot of your counterhate.


    So, i'd probably cut a Chain first, with a Needle a close second, and Surgical a somewhat distant third. I still hold that any non Silence sideboard slot is more than fine at 2 per card, with increasing one or two spells to having 3 copies as per meta requirements.
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  20. #20

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Indeed. Tempo is killing me. It's so bad I'm thinking of putting this down. Esperblade has been a true terror to face, a trifecta of discard, permission and fast beats to just wreck me every time. Getting griselbrand stifled also sucks.

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