I think you might want 3 Griselbrands in this particular build. Since LED is such an efficient discard outlet, Burning Wish for a reanimation effect combined with LED can be a solid complement to Entomb. I feel like this is an important supplement, given that one of the issues Tin Fins seems to have is that it's hard to win without Entomb. Moreover, Burning Wish for Show and Tell is a robust line that plays around a good deal of one dimensional hate (Chalices, Graffdiggers, etc) and that is well-served by having the 3rd Griselbrand. I feel like you could get away with cutting the Swamp for it, TES seems to do just fine with 13 lands + no basics and the reanimation effects you sling at the opponent to wear out counters are huge bombs with low-mana costs, so, seems feasible.Originally Posted by Koby
Regarding the sideboard, I don't think Buried Alive is worthwhile. Its so mana-intensive, and despite opening a few corner cases with Exhume and Shallow Grave, I think it just takes too long or too many resources to be effectual. If you have the Wish and the mana for such an expensive enabler, could you not just put together a line with Empty the Warrens or the far more powerful Show and Tell? For Reanimate and Exhume, I think both are worthwhile, they give you good coverage between mana-cost, life-preservation, and cognizance of the opposing graveyard. Moreover, having both means you can maintain a higher density of threats using Wishes to advance the primary game-plan. I'm on the fence on Treasure Cruise here, just because if you're not Delving away cantrips, lands or some discard, you run the risk of disrupting your ability to use Emrakul to loop your library. I think one Chain of Vapor being a Void Snare could be good, that way your don't have to side it in if you suspect permanent hate but don't want to dilute the deck too much game 2. A couple Pyroclasms to get UR/UWR decks is also a pretty good choice, imo.
Something like this could be solid:
1 Tendrils or Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Exhume
1 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
3 (Thoughtseize + 2 Duress/Thoughtseize + 2 Pithing Needle/Duress + 2 Pithing Needle)
Stronghold Gambit might be worth testing in a BW list.
I've been playing Buried Alive in my wishboard and it's rarely been good. It's completely reasonable to play more Duress or something else. I would play some kind of shatter effect because a lot of people are playing Grafdigger's Cage as their graveyard hate now. I play a Meltdown as the deck doesn't make all that much red mana for something like Shattering Spree. But you have three Chain of Vapor so it might just not matter anyway. I'll have to try them if you think they are that good. I play the Treasure Cruise in the board as a way to gas up in long games. I think you could cut it if you need space. Void Snare is worth a spot in the board, I think.
Been thinking of trying a Reanimate in the main deck if there is room for it. Was thinking of cutting the Emrakul for it seeing as it can be pretty awkward with LED at times. I'm on 3 Griselbrand just so you can draw them a little more often but I'm not sure if that is entirely relevant.
@cogitoergosum: I tried Stronghold Gambit a bunch and it isn't very good. There are a lot of delver decks right now and most decks have small creatures in it anyway. The decks Gambit would be good against Show and Tell will be good against them in most cases as well.
So I am working on writing up reports, but I have gone 4-0-1 (ID) 8-1 in games into Top 4 split, and then 4-0-2 (Double ID) 8-2 in games to First round loss in Top 8 with this deck recently. My one loss was to a guy I beat 2-0 in the swiss, but he ran 4 Maindeck Spell Snare, and misered the Fluster storm for my Show and Tell with Emmy in hand (bad beat's very close game).
I am running Pom's list exactly as it. Really impressed with it so far. There are a ton of cards I never wish for currently, and am tallying what actually gets wished for.
Looking forward to the report
Last edited by GiveMeYourOil; 01-04-2015 at 01:35 PM.
Tin Fins on the MAP!
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=78243
.dk and I put in some time with the deck at GP: Denver in the 5-round Legacy side event on Saturday. The difference between our lists were him on a D-day sideboard plan while I was on a reactive sideboard with a 61/14 75. My board is, iirc, identical to acclimation's board.
I believe he did better than I did. I went a miserable 2-3. Tons of combo there. I faced a leylines list first. She won the match 2-1. She got a turn 0 lotv in game one, as well as leyline of sanctity. This is not a great match up.
I ended up playing 15 rounds with Tin Fins over the weekend in Denver. Overall, I went 9-4-2 (both draws were IDs). I was playing my NJ list, -Tundra and +Underground Sea in the maindeck, everything else the same.
On Friday, I went 2-3, beating Jund Lands and Infect, and losing to Death and Taxes 3 times... wow. That matchup is a lot harder without Massacre. One interesting scenario from one of the Death and Taxes losses:
Sideboard game, and I'm on the Doomsday plan (RIP just seems to hard to fight through with my maindeck, particularly if they have E-Tutors). He has out Vial on 3, Plains, Port, Karakas, Leyline of Sanctity, Ethersworn Canonist, and Thalia. Ok, I can beat that... Cast Doomsday and make a Shelldock Pile with Pithing Needle for Karakas. Play Shelldock, hiding Emrakul, pass. My turn, draw needle, cast it, and he activates Vial in response. Flickerwisp comes into play and blinks Shelldock Isle. Damn... Yep, can't beat that when he has an untapped Karakas with Needle on the stack... Grr. Yeah, D&T is a lot harder without Massacre!
Saturday I went 3-1-1. I don't remember everything I played, but I know I beat Imperial Painter and lost to UR Delver (was a close match). ID in the last round with Admiral Arzar playing a sweet Eva Green list so we can both get prizes.
Sunday I went 4-0-1. Beat Burn, Miracles, UR Delver, and.... something else. I don't remember. :( Drew with UB Tezz in the Finals to split the prizes there too.
Yeah, if you're expecting a lot of hatebears... probably don't pack the Doomsday transformation. It's much much better against basically everything else.
Regarding the Burning Wish splash - I think I agree that Buried Alive is a bit sporty, but I do like the rest of it. I'm not sure why I never tested LED with Burning Wish when I was running it a couple years ago - seems like that will help a lot with the ridiculous mana requirements with Burning Wish. But I do worry that it slows us down a bit too much though, and LED does make it a bit more all-in. You planning on playing this anywhere soon Koby?
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
I am play testing this a bit on MTGO. So far it seems pretty clean, and BWish isn't too much of an issue with the mana, and LEDs make Gitaxian Probe and discard much more important to know when you can go off. Shallow Grave + LED + Griselbrand is like Magical Christmasland when it works, so it definitely feels good when it works.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
With the burning wish + LED splash, this is looking more and more like Burning Reanimator. With a red splash perhaps blue can be cut completely in place of faithless looting/full set of Griselbrands/full set of shallow grave/goryo's for consistency.
Makes sense - and makes sense to cut Discard too, since you get LED as a discard outlet if you need it. I do like the option of Empty the Warrens out of the board as well, as in Pomegrants' list. Has that been relevant for you much?
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
I have to ask why you would want to play an inferior version of the same concept. Blue cards only come at the cost of blue duals, but better filtering which makes bad hands playable.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I attended a small event this weekend with TinFins and a Doomsday SB. Two loses, both to Miracles; beating UR Standstill, UB Tezz (with literally all the hate), Assendency, and Deadguy. The DD SB was again a solid choice, if not my ability to construct piles correctly. I’m currently running 3x Griselbrand with 3 Careful Study, and am happier with this over LDV.
On several occasions I removed all disruption, and pruned cantrips and reanimation, to accommodate both Reanimation and DD. I was happy with this strategy to overwhelm their counterspell package, as opposed to force through one win-con. In hindsight I incorrectly mulliganed, pruned some of the wrong cards, and was not aggressive enough in just going for it.
With your DD SB, I’m feeling that perhaps one of the LED’s, and one SDT, could be cut for more flexible answers (bounce, massacre, etc).
4 SDT (maybe -1)
4 Doomsday
3 LED (maybe -1)
1 IU
1 Needle
1 Sheldock Isle
1 Chain
I'm not trying to be an asshole here... but if those are the cards you want to cut, I don't think that you understand Doomsday well enough. By cutting the 3rd LED, you're cutting yourself off of making the very common and simple double cantrip piles. SDT is also the best card in any Doomsday deck as it stores a free draw into your Doomsday pile for later. This either starts you into an Ideas Unbound pile into Tendrils, or flips into Shelldock Isle to play it a turn sooner, leaving you only 1 turn to pass post Doomsday.
This transformation is not conducive to anti hate. The sideboard is WAY too tight. Also, since you're a 1 card combo (Doomsday), I can't see how Careful Study is better than LDV. If you're running Doomsday in the board, I really think you want LDV maindeck to be able to Mystical Tutor Doomsday when you can't find it.
/edit: also, cutting an SDT lessens your chances of taking some of the more obscure lines with 2 SDT in play. Such as using the 1 top to flip along with LED to cast Doomsday under a Blood Moon, or making a 2xSDT Doomsday pile to Tendrils.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Hi all - post pretty minimally on the boards but thought this somewhat worthwhile. Outside of some gold fishing and a couple play tested games against UR in the last couple weeks; haven't had a chance to actually jam with TinFins prior to yesterday. We have a monthly legacy event at the lgs (usually around 20 or so) and it just felt like a good day to run it out there.
I'm running the Doomsday transformation so the 75 is pretty straight-forward. It's the same list .dk ran at NJ if that helps (also linking that report as it was hysterical).
Including what I can decipher from my notes and recall from games. Apologies in advance for the wall of text.
R1 - UR Delver
G1: Pretty much got to just do my thing here. Relatively streamlined Probe to get some info, and the next turn TS away his Force leaving BS, Young Pyro and two Swiftspears while he’s tapped out from a T1 Ponder. Ritual my way to a Griseldad and draw a few times to add Emmy to the board and give ‘em the ole 22-spot.
G2: We tend to have a wide enough array of decks and my opponent is a pretty skilled grinder that I anticipate more than the usual minimal/no real killer SB that UR typically presents. Take out an LDV and Probe for Needle and CoV.
Didn’t note my specific hand but I recall it having a bit of discard and dig; missing either an Entomb or Gris to discard myself. I Probe and see the bad news: Grafdigger’s Cage, Flusterstorm, Spell Snare and some other stuff. I fail to draw a Therapy or TS off the Probe so once Cage comes down I spend some time trying to find the CoV; opponent wisely countering a Ponder at one point while still having enough in hand if it was a bait. I end up dying to the lovely TS on the stack, double Bolt, TS resolves. Womp womp
G3: No changes for the final game
Opponent pitches back his 7 (later told me it was a no-lander with Probe and Cage; said he would have kept it if he had another Probe giving him 3 draws to land a T1 cage) and seems unhappy about his 6 – sweet. I obviously have to Probe to see what he kept and see: FoW, Cruise, Probe, Pyro and fetches. I figure it’s worth TS the FoW leaving him a pretty anemic hand and giving me a bit more flexibility (hopefully). Therapy a turn later reveals he has a BS (no mana up after dropping Pyro) with a Ponder drawing me a Petal which gives us what we need. He scoops after realizing Children is going to gain us 16 and he doesn’t feel like eating the tendrils
2-1
1-0-0
R2 – GW Elf Combo
G1: Opener was solid enough – dig, discard and Entomb – spent the first few turns trying to just dig into the recursion and eating my opponent’s hand. At one point I’m trying to figure out why he’s having such a miserable draw when I TS and see some normal elf pieces alongside Wellwisher…wtf. I draw Reanimate and have to suck it up and drop to 7 (worst life total ever) to put the Gris into play. This stops his beats for a few turns but he keeps deploying the little green men. I’m trying to figure out why he still has stuff in hand and a Probe reveals he’s drawn Craterhoof, well then. A quick calc shows he can shenanigan the mana on board to cast Hoof which puts me just dead. Luckily when you draw 7 cards finding a Therapy doesn’t seem too far-fetched and he scoops.
G2: There didn’t seem to be any really crazy tech outside of taking advantage of the swarm of elves to gain a boat load of life. Take out an LDV and Probe for Needle and CoV.
Opponent opens on a completely unexpected Fetch, Forest, elf…whoa now. Unfortunately for my opponent he seemed to have shuffled and cut me to the perfect 7 with my draw only helping. TS and see a Test of Endurance (things are making a bit more sense now); pass back and he plays another thing. Therapy to ensure there’s no Mindbreak Trap and proceed to bring out the tag team champions. Had to slow down and explain to my opponent how it all worked (e.g. stuff has haste, Emmy trigger on the stack, etc.) but the look on his face was one of pure sadness at the end of it all.
2-0
2-0-0
R3 – RW Painter
G1: Only opponent I played that I knew what he was on. This is the gent that runs our event and I know somewhat well; very skilled pilot of the deck. Interesting changes to his deck regularly and I sadly can’t recall the exact build of what hate is main vs. board usually
Win the roll and I can’t fetch that Swamp quick enough. I open on Therapy naming Magus of the Moon and miss but get ready for him to land a Blood Moon on his turn (go figure) with not much else in hand after that outside of land. We draw-go for a couple turns before I put together what I need and 22 him.
G2: Between him already having an ETutor package main with Ensnaring Bridge I’m guessing there will be a tutorable RIP and who knows what other artifact-based hate from the board. I transform (finally, woohoo!) and shuffle up.
Well, he gets a Magus before I can find a fetch to get a Swamp so we’re stuck digging off two tops. I manage to get a Needle in play early though on Grindstone to buy some time. Eventually he plays a Painter and I’m just waiting for my Needle to eat it. I top and see a Petal and figure it’s the only shot. We’re getting beat down by the crew of 1/3s and 2/2s and time is not on our side between Painter/Pyroblast tricks and a Thorn of Amethyst putting further pressure on our ability to play things. Cast Petal, resolves. I get hopeful – maybe he just doesn’t have the Pyroblast! Sac for black, tap one of my mountains (eye roll) and cast Dark Ritual. Pyroblast; damn! On the upside I didn’t have to show him the Doomsday.
G3: Interested for opinions here as I stayed on the DD plan despite being on the play. My reasoning at the time (and I even started to re-board in the moment) was that I had better chances of slogging through a few pieces that might slow us down as opposed to hoping to god-hand him before he lands any sort of hate that either stops the GY/our fatties or puts constraints on the mana.
First couple of turns weren’t much to write home about. Have two tops in play, TS a Blood Moon (while he tutors for RIP in response, groan) and just work on topping to sculpt the hand and dig into a DD to go off. I eat some hits from an ape and am topping like a mad man. Draw for turn; top and see DD as the new card, legit started to get excited. Draw DD with top, TS to see nothing relevant (ya never know). Hand is Probe, Probe, Ritual, DD, LED with a top in play.
“Ritual” – Resolves
“LED” – Uh…resolves
“Doomsday” – Wait…seriously? Not even mad, go for it
From there build a straight-forward pile of IU-LED-LED-Ponder-ToA.
2-1
3-0-0
R4 – Sneak and Show
Pairings go up and my opponent and I notice that it’s final round and we’re both the only undefeated. We decide to ID into the T4 and just play for fun. I really should have taken notes and played tighter, even with it not counting – so that I could get some more practice in. Trying to write these games from memory and really open to thoughts on playing this MU in general.
G1: Opponent mulls to 5, I TS to see basically nothing besides a FoW + blue card plus a Sneak Attack. Snipe the FoW and just burst onions.
G2: Sided a Needle but stayed on TinFins. I noticed .dk switched to DD in the NJ report which is something I maybe should have gone with?
This time I get slapped by the mull stick and watch him Sneak a Gris into play followed by Emmy. We joke about how the last game can now be a real one since we both got shafted the first ones.
G3: No changes
This is definitely the game I should have taken notes for. There was a lot of back and forth between discard, counters, etc. Had to float a number of spells out as bait but my opponent was just very aware of what was relevant. The game grinds on and I’m pretty much ready to just scoop it all up but hell, let the guy have his fun. I eat an Emmy attack and then die to a ‘Surgical, hold priority, Swan Song it’. His feathered friend finishes the game.
1-2
3-0-1
Top 4
1. Sneak and Show
2. TinFins
3. Food Chain
4. RW Painter
We just split the T4 so we can all save some time and each of us gets a balanced/healthy chunk of store credit.
Overall happy with the games I played and I felt like I made the right choices on cantrips/discard (outside of the somewhat obvious decisions) to give myself the breathing room needed. Couldn’t have asked for a better first time with TinFins!
No offence taken.... completely new to DD.
I've found SDT a little frustrating with the lack of shuffle effects, triggering the draw into doomsday with brainstorm, ponder, GP far more often. SDT into the pile is lovely with zero mana commitment, but few decks give you the luxury of time to take full advantage of SDT in the setup. Ponder and to a lesser degree Careful Study show more cards or clear cards, as opposed to repeatedly looking at the 3rd from top card in a desperate search for a fetch.
LDV finding doomsday as Mystical is excellent, but lacklustre in the main deck, despite assuring turn 3 kill more often. Similarly Grim is just too slow at 3cmc. There is a trade-off, and I prefer the more explosive results Ive gotten with Careful Study, increasing the nutty T1/2 kills.
I've not needed the 3rd LED for a pile as yet.... but am new to this and you didn't include it for nothing. More reading / practice required.
Damn good showing with the deck for the first time, particular slinging Doomsdays around! Couple pieces of feedback based on my experience:
1. Elves - I usually stick with Doomsday in this matchup because of Deathrite Shaman. If you're on the play, I can see a case for Tin Fins to race, but on the draw particularly I will stick on Doomsday. A lot of times they board in a lot of discard, and Sensei's Diving Top with a 1 card combo is pretty damn good against that kind of disruption. Also, they sometimes have Ruric-Thar, and Shelldock->Emrakul wrecks their day if they are counting on that.
2. Sneak/Show - I'm actually not even sure in this matchup what the right thing to do is. Probably sticking with Tin Fins on the play, and Doomsday on the draw. Obviously putting down a Griselbrand off of their Show and Tell is nuts, which is why maindeck is sweet... however I can see a good case for them bringing in Blood Moon as well, which means Sensei's Divining Top gets a lot better, as well as having LED's around to be able to case Doomsday with. More IMS that aren't affected by Moon. You also get to use your discard 100% as disruption on Doomsday, as they aren't serving double duty like they are in the maindeck. This seems good as disruption for an opposing combo deck. I'm really not sure though - I've only played the one match in New Jersey against Sneak/Show with the deck in this configuration.
3. Painter - I would always stick with Doomsday here. They basically can't beat a good Shelldock/Emrakul pile (just stash a Chain of Vapor in there and another Doomsday, and you'll pretty much be fine - just make sure you have a petal too if they have blood moon or think they'll draw it). They have the possibility of Rest in Peace, practically infinite Tormod's Crypts with Welder, and Thorn of Amethyst - sounds like too much hate to me to fight through with the maindeck. The Doomsday transformation, while slower, is still very fast, so I wouldn't worry about the speed difference much. And again, you can use all of your discard as disruption to snag Painters, Blood Moons, etc.
4. If you're running my NJ list - I would totally ditch the Tundra. I wasn't thinking/paying attention to my manabase for that event and just copied an older list. Tundra is rarely needed, and Underground Sea is almost always better. Or maybe even Gemstone Mine (as Wanderlust suggested to me).
And glad you enjoyed my report - I had a good time writing it too ;)
There are plenty of shuffle effects in the deck, IMO. More than I run in DDFT if you count LDV. 8 fetchlands and 4 Ponders. What decks aren't giving you enough time to take advantage of those?
I also think LDV shines in the maindeck, finding whatever you need as Mystical. I know Richard Cheese hasn't liked it either, but it's been an all-star for me both for setting up the Turn 3 Onion Burst, as well as finding Doomsday post board.
And for the 3rd LED... For example: You have USea, and SDT in play, and Doomsday, Dark Rit, and Probe in hand. The 3rd LED lets you combo there making: LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Tendrils.
Also - you mentioned cutting all of your disruption and having both combos in. I hadn't really thought of that. What do you end up cutting when you do that?
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Thank ya! I've really liked the looks of TinFins for a while and having started playing Legacy with Storm (TES) it's hard to pass up a chance to DD someone lol
Elves - 100% agree, the only reason I didn't was the assumption based on what I saw during various points of G1 that my opponent wasn't so much typical Elves as a GW combo utilizing elves to fuel it (e.g. Test of Endurance & Wellwisher)
Good to know and makes sense. I can't see many players keeping S&T in post-board unless they have some wonky; no alternative SB plan which gives more reason to go DD for the play G2 (obviously assuming we just win G1 lol)
I might try to jam some testing and see what appears to be a more consistent "right" move
Glad to know I probably made the right choice/thought process on this. I just had the nagging thought in my mind of going TinFins on the play but sounds like what talked me out of doing so is the same thought process you have here.
I very well may try that out or making it a basic Island so it remains fetchable. I would agree that there's maybe been two games (between testing and against my UR Delver opponent) that I wanted literal Tundra to just cast Children
Watch out for Island... it screws up your fetchland base if you do that as Marsh Flats can't get it. Probably the best you could do then would be 4 Delta, 2 Flats, 2 Flooded Strands.
Did you just want tundra because Scrubland was already in play and tapped?
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Empty the Warrens is okay. It's a good backup plan when your opponent turns off the graveyard but the problem is that you might not be able to pump out a huge amount of Goblins the way Belcher or TES is going to. Making eight goblins isn't great but in the right matchups it'll get you there. This could be because I'm usually playing towards getting Griselbrand into play rather than switching plans to goblins though so it might be more powerful than I'm giving it credit.
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