[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[dte]

4 copies is a lot, but it does not seems so stupid to me. If entomb is countered, you can flashback it with jace. They want to counter or kill jace? You can reanimate it.

The fact is that jace turns your reanimation in SCM with a free looting plus an occasional fog. Plus an alt win con (and it's a serious one against control decks).

If the card was not so stupidely expensive, I would try it. Not in 4, but at least 1 or 2. You do not have to remove all the ims for him. He putted 4 grisel, 2 emrakul too as well as a lot of counters and 2 innocent blood. You can remove these.

and 1U to flashback therapy is not to be overlooked.

[Koby]

I think Jace Vryn's Prodigy might be very good in Tin Fins.
However, I'm not gambling $300 to test it out. No regrets by waiting on this stupid mythic hype to die out.

[alaska]

Baby Jace could be worth testing, but not in the list Majors provided. His list is just a worse version of Reanimator. The fact that he (admittedly) hasn't played Tin Fins really shows in some of his choices.

So what would we cut to reasonably test FlipJace? You don't really want to cut Griselbrands, because they synergize with the loot effect. Do you shave a couple therapies and maybe a ponder?

It seems fine in Reanimator, possibly great there. Not sure I see it here.

Anyone who owns a set, I encourage you to test some. But you won't catch me buying a playset for testing purposes, not at that price.

[.dk]

I think Jace Vryn's Prodigy might be very good in Tin Fins.
However, I'm not gambling $300 to test it out. No regrets by waiting on this stupid mythic hype to die out.

Bingo - same here. I've wanted to try out 2 of them in the list, but I refuse to pay the money that they are commanding at the moment.

/edit: I think in a list with Jaces, i could see maybe upping griselbrand to 3, cutting LIm Dul's Vault, and cutting a Goryo's Vengeance. Something like that to start with anyway. so...

-2 LDV
-1 Goryo's Vengeance

+2 Jace, Vryn's $100 bill
+1 Griselbrand

[Koby]

Bingo - same here. I've wanted to try out 2 of them in the list, but I refuse to pay the money that they are commanding at the moment.

/edit: I think in a list with Jaces, i could see maybe upping griselbrand to 3, cutting LIm Dul's Vault, and cutting a Goryo's Vengeance. Something like that to start with anyway. so...

-2 LDV
-1 Goryo's Vengeance

+2 Jace, Vryn's $100 bill
+1 Griselbrand

This is where I'm steering as well. Give me a few hours and I'll whip up a prototype to begin testing.

Here's my thoughts right now:


4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons' Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance


This is 44 cards right now. I 100% recommend going to 16 lands with likely basic Island to support the Jaces. Let's suppose:

3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
8-10 Fetchlands

It's not yet clear to me if Children of Korlis are needed for this type of deck. They likely are, but I'm not sure how Jace plays out in this deck. There is likely about 3-4 flex slots in the deck right now.

Without kids, there's rarely a need for Reanimate. Without Tendrils, there's rarely a need for Chrome Mox.
Thoughtseize is extra protection, perhaps Flusterstorm could help if we're slowing down with Jaces in the build.

Bayou for SB Abrupt Decays (CB / RIP).
Flusterstorm seems fine too, against other combo and tempo counters.
Surgical against actually GY decks.
Massacre / Dread of Night vs D&T, Maverick, hatebears. *Aside, if you're facing Gaddock Teeg (Massacre), at least your opponent is dumb, but ugh that's annoying*
Pithing Needle vs DRS, Sneak, SDT
Chain of Vapor as catch-all storm engine / safety switch.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Except that I have been rocking Snapcasters in this list for 2-ish yrs now... I think Jace is kinda worse, other than you can resolve him and pass the turn, freeing up mana for the flashback the next turn. Still feels worse, though.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Koby]

Except that I have been rocking Snapcasters in this list for 2-ish yrs now... I think Jace is kinda worse, other than you can resolve him and pass the turn, freeing up mana for the flashback the next turn. Still feels worse, though.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

The two cards are fundamentally different. Jace has an active ability that allows the resource to remain in play without self-exiling. Snapcaster is a 3 mana spell to be useful. Jace is still only 2 mana, and at best, still allows flashback over a few turns. I can see a few game states where Jace is threatening to Ultimate. Snapcaster is just a 2/1 body with the ability that Jace provides (of many).

The looting effect is actually really going to be important IMO. This deck needs more dig, without relying on slow cards like Preordain.

[movadomk5]

Except that I have been rocking Snapcasters in this list for 2-ish yrs now... I think Jace is kinda worse, other than you can resolve him and pass the turn, freeing up mana for the flashback the next turn. Still feels worse, though.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

A big gain from Jace over Snap is you can run FoW and be able to have it available with its alternate cost if its in the bin along, you can vengeance it to get the loot and flashback ability which can be huge when you have to grind out cards from your opponents hands. Also you have a chance you opponents lets it resolve and leaves it alone and now have multiple entombs which has been a bottle neck of the deck.

[movadomk5]

My initial build:

3 Underground Sea
3 Griselbrand
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Gitaxian Probe


I have goldfished a bit against RUG delver one of the preexisting tough match ups. So far it has been a lot better of a pre board match up due to the fact you can have FoW and Jace to help loot and flashback. I think it may still need Daze and/or Discard to help protect the combo a little bit more.

[Richard Cheese]

The two cards are fundamentally different. Jace has an active ability that allows the resource to remain in play without self-exiling. Snapcaster is a 3 mana spell to be useful. Jace is still only 2 mana, and at best, still allows flashback over a few turns. I can see a few game states where Jace is threatening to Ultimate. Snapcaster is just a 2/1 body with the ability that Jace provides (of many).

The looting effect is actually really going to be important IMO. This deck needs more dig, without relying on slow cards like Preordain.

But didn't we already cut Careful Study because we just aren't enough reanimation targets to justify looting effects? I get that Jace can potentially be used multiple times, negating the card disadvantage but he'd also be the only real target for Decay, Bolt, Swords, P.Fire, etc. I get that "dies to removal" is generally a shitty arguement against creatures, but he's really more of a spell here.

It's also important to note that the flipping is not a may ability, so my guess is you're rarely going to be able to activate him more than a couple times in a deck made of fetches and cantrips.

I don't think it's a bad card, I just think it fits a lot better into traditional Reanimator with a slower gameplan and more reanimation targets.

[Koby]

But didn't we already cut Careful Study because we just aren't enough reanimation targets to justify looting effects? I get that Jace can potentially be used multiple times, negating the card disadvantage but he'd also be the only real target for Decay, Bolt, Swords, P.Fire, etc. I get that "dies to removal" is generally a shitty arguement against creatures, but he's really more of a spell here.

It's also important to note that the flipping is not a may ability, so my guess is you're rarely going to be able to activate him more than a couple times in a deck made of fetches and cantrips.

That's where the testing comes in. I think the synergy between the card being Legendary, some potential to utilize a 2 mana planeswalker, and the -3 flashback ability has merit.
It might be an interesting idea that doesn't pan out.
It might be more powerful than the base list.

[alaska]

Something a friend of mine brought up: mucking around with non-fatty creatures could potentially screw us w/r/t shallow grave. If Jace eats a removal spell and ends up above Griselbrand, that's awkward as hell.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is true, alaska, which is why one of my favorite plays is (after an entomb is in the yard) therapy, then Snappy giving entomb flashback, sac Snappy to flashback therapy, and then entomb again, that way you don't have to worry about them screwing up your Shallow Grave plans with any removal spell ever targetting the snappy in response to the Shallow Grave.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[phazonmutant]

Koby, I'd definitely be interested to hear the results of your testing. Another sweet interaction with Jace - you can filter a Goryo's Vengeance into a Shallow Grave if you have an extra 2 mana, Shallow Grave, and Jace in graveyard. Sometimes comes up with Children of Korlis - not often but something to watch out for. Also if he somehow dies, you could potentially turn extra Shallow Graves / Goryo's into an Entomb if you have an Entomb in the bin.

So thinking about a list with him, a couple things come to mind. He doesn't really like Chrome Mox because it doesn't help flip him, Mox Diamond may be better if either is necessary. The Tendrils is really only necessary for redundancy if they Plow Griselbrand. Jace may give you enough redundant effects to find more of whatever you need to cut the Tendrils. As other people noted, Force and Daze become better, he can flash back Therapy, and the loot gives additional ways to discard. Thoughtseize may be cuttable. I'm not sure that adding more Griselbrands in the deck is actually necessary. At this point, need to do some testing to see how those different numbers play out.

[Acclimation]

I have 4 of these Jace (sometimes playing standard is a good time).

If anyone has a list they are confident in, I can give it a test run (between work, school, and other life things, I don't have the time to brew), provided it doesn't use silly things like counterspells and green lands.


I wonder if Jace isn't more of a sideboard card though, against the more grindy decks like Miracles. I still feel that g1 it's in our best interest to blitz, and Jace isn't the best at facilitating that plan, but in a longer game, Jace is great.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I know that we've been talking about Jace, but I'm interested in a transformational sideboard with Mentor.

4x Delver
3x Mentor
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Bayou/Trop/Savannah (Which?)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction

Think it'll cover the bases?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[movingtonewao]

Looks kinda cute, but as with most transformational sideboards, the question you wanna ask is whether or not it does anything to shore up weak match ups (in this case perhaps delver)

Also what's up with the 'from my phone I do my best' thing? Is it a sig? I'm kinda curious :)

[alastair]

I know that we've been talking about Jace, but I'm interested in a transformational sideboard with Mentor.

4x Delver
3x Mentor
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Bayou/Trop/Savannah (Which?)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction

Think it'll cover the bases?

I found Mentor and Bob to be great, but am not sold on SFM nor Delver (I'd run 4x Mentor, despite 3 cmc being high with 13/14 land). With Delver you are just a bad Delver deck, and SFM gives your opponent too much time to re-adjust to the matchup. I'm tempted by the 2U 4/4 angel with second spell of the turn (Petal/Probe), but perhaps just 2 Jitte and bitterblossom may be better, or Obliterator although this leans on DR a lot.

On Jace, I don't feel that TinFins is a good home for him. In straight Reanimator, I cannot see why you would not want him for the loot and flashback redundancy as you have the counter and play the long game.

[KIP_NZ]

After a yearish on RG Combo lands I decided to burst some onions today.... My pile. Just need to grab 2 more Careful Study's from the LGS.

[alaska]

After a yearish on RG Combo lands I decided to burst some onions today.... My pile. Just need to grab 2 more Careful Study's from the LGS.

All those black border cards look amazing.

Questioning some choices though. Not sure that Careful Study or 4x Griselbrand is where we want to be. But I understand if you commit to one, it makes sense to commit to the other.

Also, 2 Chrome Mox is almost certainly 1 too many.

In short, look to Ponder over Careful Study. I'm finally begrudgingly coming around to testing Lim-Dul's Vault, but you might consider that too.