[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[ZimAshe]

I have to say, I think this deck is insane. i am currently in the process of building it.
the one problem is I don't have any thouhtsieze. I realize that this card is a competative staple in most decks and I should get my hands on a playset. that having been said at $60 a pop that isn't happening anytime soon.

My question for the developers and the thread as a whole is: what card do you substitute? i realize thoughtseize works double duty in this deck. it has the ability to pull cards from your opponent but also put Griselbrand into your yard for reanimation purposes.

my thoughts for a "reasonable" substitution were one of the following:


4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Careful Study


thanks for your time.

[Dela]

I have to say, I think this deck is insane. i am currently in the process of building it.
the one problem is I don't have any thouhtsieze. I realize that this card is a competative staple in most decks and I should get my hands on a playset. that having been said at $60 a pop that isn't happening anytime soon.

My question for the developers and the thread as a whole is: what card do you substitute? i realize thoughtseize works double duty in this deck. it has the ability to pull cards from your opponent but also put Griselbrand into your yard for reanimation purposes.

my thoughts for a "reasonable" substitution were one of the following:


4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Careful Study


thanks for your time.

Cabal Therapy's and Probes are decent.

[Koby]

Inquisition of Kozilek is a decent substitute for Thoughtseize. However it has its limitations: it cannot take Force of Will nor Mindbreak Trap.
Cabal Therapy is also a good sub, but has a much higher learning curve and can still whiff. If you play it correctly, it should effectively do the same as Thoughtseize. Playing with Gitaxian Probe also makes this card useful.

[ZimAshe]

this is the list that I'm going off of for referance:


2 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Ponder
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

[phazonmutant]

I kinda like the idea of a SB of hosers.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PD3] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ARE] Chill/Warmth/White Leyline? Chill has applications vs gobs and doesn't require a splash.
SB: 2 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [A] Meekstone

Agreed with .dk that Leylines are probably bad. The deck doesn't need any more dead draws. Also, the graveyard matchups aren't that bad...

I have to disagree with the Chill / Meekstone plan. I don't think the deck will win if it tries to play control against Burn or Maverick because those decks either are more redundant or have better control tools. With Children, the deck can consistantly go off from 14-8 life and if you're that concerned about Burn, just play another Children as a lifegain spell. Meekstone doesn't solve any of the hatebears out of Maverick, so I'm really not sure what it's doing.

Deathmark makes sense though. Other potential options are Slaughter Pact, Massacre, and Disfigure. I like Massacre right now I've been seeing a lot more Mom + hatebear gamestates than Teegs, but it's close. Maverick has always been scary for reanimator, so it makes sense to devote some slots to anti-hate for that matchup.


ZimAshe - try playing 4 Therapies, 2 Duress, and 1 Careful Study. It's not often that I take one of their creatures with Thoughtseize, so Duress is a reasonable replacement, and add in the miser's Careful Study for value.

[.dk]

I have to say, I think this deck is insane. i am currently in the process of building it.
the one problem is I don't have any thouhtsieze. I realize that this card is a competative staple in most decks and I should get my hands on a playset. that having been said at $60 a pop that isn't happening anytime soon.

My question for the developers and the thread as a whole is: what card do you substitute? i realize thoughtseize works double duty in this deck. it has the ability to pull cards from your opponent but also put Griselbrand into your yard for reanimation purposes.

my thoughts for a "reasonable" substitution were one of the following:


4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Careful Study


thanks for your time.

Glad you find the deck fun, and it's getting enough publicity that more people are realizing that. :)

As far as substitutions for Thoughtseize - I would likely change the disruption suite from 4 Thoughtseize 3 Cabal Therapy to 4 Duress, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Careful Study or something to that effect (more Therapies if you're familiar with the card, and reasonably confident that you can hit often with it). You still get 5 pieces of disruption this way, along with 3 ways to pitch a Griselbrand from your hand. I don't think you need (or want) 4 Careful Studies though - there are only 4 pitch targets main deck (5 if you're running the full compliment of Griselbrands), so that scenario isn't a regular occurrence.

Gitaxian Probe + Therapy on it's own is pretty sweet too - but I'm not sure if only 4 pieces of disruption is enough.

I have to disagree with the Chill / Meekstone plan. I don't think the deck will win if it tries to play control against Burn or Maverick because those decks either are more redundant or have better control tools. With Children, the deck can consistantly go off from 14-8 life and if you're that concerned about Burn, just play another Children as a lifegain spell. Meekstone doesn't solve any of the hatebears out of Maverick, so I'm really not sure what it's doing.

Have you not had issues with Burn in the past? I've gotten into scenarios where I couldn't go off T1, and ended up in a position where I couldn't actually draw from Griselbrand else I got burned out. Warmth seems better than some number of Thoughtseizes to me in that matchup. Although, now that I think about it, those scenarios may have been before I was running Children...

Meekstone is there to stave off pressure - if you can't go off instantly or you're disrupted and they drop some beater (like RUG can do), you can have a real problem living until you can go off again.

My thoughts anyway - maybe you've had different experiences than I.

[phazonmutant]

Have you not had issues with Burn in the past? I've gotten into scenarios where I couldn't go off T1, and ended up in a position where I couldn't actually draw from Griselbrand else I got burned out. Warmth seems better than some number of Thoughtseizes to me in that matchup. Although, now that I think about it, those scenarios may have been before I was running Children...

Meekstone is there to stave off pressure - if you can't go off instantly or you're disrupted and they drop some beater (like RUG can do), you can have a real problem living until you can go off again.

My thoughts anyway - maybe you've had different experiences than I.

No major issues with burn. They usually can't deal more than 10 damage by turn 2 and their turn 3 kills are very unlikely. We have some games where we can't go off until turn 4+ even without disruption, but usually those hands will have some discard to serve as Healing Salve. Also, the more they sideboard, the slower their clock gets.

I guess against Thresh meekstone buys you a lot of time, but I would much rather have a spells like Defense Grid that actively helps me win rather than a spell that helps me not lose. I've always lost whenever I've played fast combo decks that position to "not-lose" after sideboarding. It just doesn't work at all with the strategic goal of the deck - sort of like Who's the Beatdown?


Specific decks I would position to be the control against are Belcher variants, TES (because they're explosive and disruption can easily buy a couple turns), Dredge if I have grave have because we have more inevitability if we can Surgical Narcs, and that's about it.
ANT is pretty hand-dependent on which of you is going to be the control - about equal amounts of disruption vs. dig/combo pieces and similar fundamental turns.
Traditional Reanimator, High Tide, Alluren, Show and Tell, etc are all positioned to be the control because of Force of Will.

[ZimAshe]

I'm pretty comfortable with Therapy. I've been using it for a while.

I think for this build i wil go:


3 Cabal therapy
2 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Careful Study


Probe and Therapy work so well together it's hard to not have at least a misers copy. Same with Careful Study. and duress will be good against the blue decks and their counter magic.

Edit:
I can't wait to run this deck against my friends at our Legacy tournament. Turn 2 wins rule! lol

[.dk]

No major issues with burn. They usually can't deal more than 10 damage by turn 2 and their turn 3 kills are very unlikely. We have some games where we can't go off until turn 4+ even without disruption, but usually those hands will have some discard to serve as Healing Salve. Also, the more they sideboard, the slower their clock gets.

I guess against Thresh meekstone buys you a lot of time, but I would much rather have a spells like Defense Grid that actively helps me win rather than a spell that helps me not lose. I've always lost whenever I've played fast combo decks that position to "not-lose" after sideboarding. It just doesn't work at all with the strategic goal of the deck - sort of like Who's the Beatdown?


Specific decks I would position to be the control against are Belcher variants, TES (because they're explosive and disruption can easily buy a couple turns), Dredge if I have grave have because we have more inevitability if we can Surgical Narcs, and that's about it.
ANT is pretty hand-dependent on which of you is going to be the control - about equal amounts of disruption vs. dig/combo pieces and similar fundamental turns.
Traditional Reanimator, High Tide, Alluren, Show and Tell, etc are all positioned to be the control because of Force of Will.

Fair enough on the burn matchup. That must have been prior to Children, now that I think about it. I don't think I've played against UR Burn since GP Atlanta, so I'm not even sure how that matchup works.

As far as thresh goes - we're already set up pretty well against counterspells due to the amount of business spells that we have. If they counter the first reanimation - well great, then cast another. What we have a hard time dealing with is pressure - and I think that is where meekstone could be good. Defense Grid actually serves a similar role - it just answers a different part of your opponent's gameplan.

Not necessarily saying that Defense Grid is worse, but if we are already set up ok to deal with countermagic, then maybe having a sideboard piece to deal with pressure is ok? For an answers type board, it seems like a good option to test out to see how it fares. And as an added bonus - it turns off getting waste-locked by KotR.

[Richard Cheese]

@ZimAshe - I would probably go 4 Cabal Therapy, 2 Careful Study, 1 Duress. There are a lot of situations with this deck where you want to be able to ditch something in your hand, whether it's Grizzlebees to combo off, Children so you can reanimate them if you don't have a white source, or Emrakul for a shuffle or the win. We don't need to protect our combo as much as TES or AnT, so I think you want more utility out of those slots than Probe offers.

[Koby]

Ridiculous!

[KobeBryan]

Ridiculous!

gonna be packing surgicals and FOWs this weekend!!!!

[Dark Ritual]

Ridiculous!

Quoted for the mother fucking truth. Great job, loved that brainstorm into emrakul against omnitell game three. I'll say it again. JUSTICE.

If you lack thoughtseize, cabal therapy seems good enough. Duress not being able to get griselbrand/emrakul out of your hand is a little relevant, however how often is the line thoughtseize/therapy targeting myself to bin emrakul/griselbrand out of curiosity? Haven't played this deck yet, but I'll probably be picking it up very soon despite lacking thoughtseizes I'll try to borrow some.

[Koby]

There are a lot of lines of play that start with Therapy or Thoughtseize self to reanimate Griselbrand into a combo turn. I don't think that there are subs for either after playing the deck. Duress is good in SB as additional disruption, but not as multi-prong disruption.

Tin Fins: Return of the Onion Burst -- A deck with so many layers that make the opponent cry for it to stop.

That last game: http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/c/1923236
Also, going sort of infinite: http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/c/1923262

[Basaka]

What you needed to do was to set up a loop of:

Dark ritual x4, lotus petal, thoughtseize, emrakul and draw 7 infinitely.

If you run low on life, replace a petal or ritual with a child, gain whatever life

This way, you really go infinite. Now I want to play this deck...

[Koby]

OK so I did some thing thinking (dangerous.. I know) and I don't think the splash into Sneak Attack is realistic. Sneak Attack as a strategy requires a lot more operating mana than this deck can muster. The plan would require boarding into additional mana sources. Since the SB is the limiting factor, I don't think that transformational SB is valid.

Back to the drawing board.

[.dk]

That might be true - it's very possible that you want at least 15 lands and possibly a Mox Diamond if you're on the Sneak Attack plan. I have yet to try it while splashing white for Children, so it wouldn't surprise me if supporting 4 colors along with the mana needed for Sneak Attack is just too much of a burden. Still going to try sometime and test, just to see though.

Don't own any cards on MODO, but if anyone is interested in testing on Cockatrice sometime I'd be down.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

This. Deck. Is. So. Stupid.

Last night's stream made me wish we had Felidar Sovereign.

[.dk]

This. Deck. Is. So. Stupid.

Last night's stream made me wish we had Felidar Sovereign.

Felidar Sovereign... who wants to pass the turn? :P

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah I'm going to say Tendrils is a better "you win the game" card.