I like this list. I have played with Burning Reanimator, and agree that Burning wish did not do enough for the reanimation plan. And also that LED constricted the build too much (dropping Reanimate for Unburial Rites), becoming a bottleneck for the deck while not having a tutor for it. So I like the suggestion of Spoils of the Vault, because it grabs any card. The lifeloss isn't that bad, BR-Rea loses life to Reanimate as well, and manages just fine. If anybody is good with statistics, it would be interesting how much life you'd averagely loose to SotV to find a copy of a foursome card in the first turn.Originally Posted by Jblinder
However I do think that Spoils of the Vault works best in decks running 4-offs, and in Tin-FIns, you might have another bottleneck in finding a Children. With the lifeloss of SotV, the chance is real you won't have enough life to griseldraw into it. In a Burning-rea hybrid version though, swapping Bwish for SotV might be sweet.
Postboard, having a tutor that reliable gets a copy of your 4-off counterhate like CB, Wear/Tear, whatever you boarded in, feels tempting too.
@Jblinder, I am interested in your LED ZeppeFins list. Any chance we could get a peek?
I have a list that I ran to a 2-2 success at a weekly legacy event here in AZ. I do plan to play it again after Vegas to further refine it; I am playing Dark Depths in Vegas and need practice.
Tin Fins (All-In)
Creatures:9
1 Children of Korlis
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:38
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
2 Unmask
Lands:13
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
Sideboard:15
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chrome Mox
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Show and Tell
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou
1 Island
LED Zeppfins
Creatures:6
1 Children of Korlis
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:40
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Unburial Rites
4 Exhume
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
Lands:14
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
Sideboard:15
2 Duress
2 Massacre
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Reverent Silence
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
I do think we have to find a good transformational SB. Maybe Show and Tell is ok but I haven't been super happy with it. This list already has 4 LED. Maybe back to Doomsday??
Edit: Thinking maybe -1 Unmask, -1 Exhume +2 Ponder (or Top?)might be better in this list as it is less of an allin deck, while still being very fast ofc. Also probably transitions better to Doomsday, which I want to try. Maybe some weird Show and Doom transformation where Griselbrand stays in??
Last edited by Jblinder; 03-12-2017 at 02:20 PM.
Wanting to Spoils for Children would be very rare. Spoils is here to find what we need to make Griselbrand. Once he is in play, if we are casting Spoils of the Vault we are in a bad position (not saying it could never happen). If we're in a spot where we can't find Children with Griselbrand, we are by definition in a spot where we need to hit off Spoils in the top 6 cards or less (otherwise we would just draw another 7 right?). If this is the case its almost always going to be better trying to win again next turn with whatever we did draw into.
The fact that we can entomb/reanimate Children also makes the line where we would want to Spoils for them even more rare.
Last edited by Jblinder; 03-12-2017 at 02:57 PM.
I meant that playing Spoils of the vault to get Griselbrand into play, leaves you with a considerable lifeloss, mostlikely costing you a griselbrand activation. So it's very possible that the rise in consistency to get Griselbrand into play through Spoils, might cost you the ability to end the game in the same turn in Tin-Fins-Style (finding children) because Spoils probably left you with a draw-7 (or two) less. It's why I was rather thinking of Burning Reanimator, as it's the reanimator-version that's the least reliant on paying life (as BR runs Reanimate and Tin Fins trades life for chaining draw-7's).
But as your list combines both Unburial Rites and Shallow Grave, you don't necessarily need to combo in one turn. So maybe I'm overly worried
4x Infernal Tutor, 4x Leyline of the Void, 4x Helm of Obedience, 3x Enlightened Tutor? LEDs and W access in the MD, Leyline is not destroyed by Abrupt Decay which seems to be everywhere nowadays, and comboing through Thalia + Containment Priest + Karakas is not impossible, which is super important in paper meta which is like 33+% D&T. Bonus points if opponent is old school enough to bring Rest in Peace in.
The deck idea originally came from LED/Shallow Grave interactions prior to GP Griselbrand in 2012. After testing those configurations (Tin Fins 1 and 2) with Richard Cheese, it actually didn't even seem like LED was needed - cutting it left room for other useful cards (such as 3 copies of Tendrils and 0 Children of Korlis in that GP list - if only we knew then what we know now!). LED does have some very good uses in the deck though - It's a pretty good IMS after Griselbrand is in play, discard outlet, etc. I did find (albeit not with extensive trials and data collecting like we did a year ago or so) that the fizzle rate was basically 0. However... there are some gotchas.
Making Emrakul gets a lot harder with this build. You need to be conserving your Shallow Graves for that purpose. The other (and larger issue), is that we lose one of the advantages of the standard build in that trying to go off isn't going all-in. One of the things that sets Tin Fins apart from decks like ANT or TES is that if we are disrupted trying to go off, we usually haven't dumped all of our resources into it, so we can easily keep searching and try again relatively quickly due to redundancy in the deck. LED precludes that as you've discarded your hand at that point leaving yourself vulnerable.
Not saying it's bad - just a lot of tradeoffs.
bonus: Doomsday sideboard with LED's main:
4 SDT
4 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Lab Maniac
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity
You get to run Lab Maniac! Bonus points if you run Chromatic Sphere with him. :) Also lets us run Serenity to help fight Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance.
(you want 1 Tendrils and at least 4 ponder - maybe LDV too - maindeck to be able to find Doomsday though)
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
I'll post up a tournament report and some home testing tomorrow. I've squeezed lab man into my build and he's been very working well.
Shelldock/Emrakul + Lab Maniac is a great pile. Draws through the pile quickly, and gives you a backup wincon (Lab Maniac) if they deal with Emrakul.
Shelldock, Emrakul, SDT, LED, Lab Maniac
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
So I took the RB version to GP NJ side events and ran so hot. Out of the 8 games I played I only lost to 1 miracles opponent and 1 imperial painter. Combined with the night before I ran 2-2 (should have been 3-1 but I missed a mentor trigger for lethal in the last round), I am starting to feel more comfortable with the deck.
The painter game was mine to have but I cut Tendrils from my 75 to try collective brutality, and didn't realize that painter had ensaring bridge so I only had 1 disenchant post board.
I'm still unsold on the burning wish plan, I've played wish before and without a lot of fast mana it is really slow. Or I am throwing rituals and petals into it that I would rather not waste.
That being said, I have been having fine amounts of games with the 13 lands. Even if I fizzle on the 21 cards I can probably strip their hand of anything meaningful and reset for the next turn.
And I'm still not trying to make the defense that R>U. But from recent lists I would say that brainstorm is not $900> red spells. A viable RB list can really increase speed (as we've seen with RB reanimator) while giving newer players a chance to play the best deck. Personally, whatever list gets people to play most is what I will advocate.
Last edited by Kobra_D; 03-16-2017 at 11:56 AM.
Card Kingdom ran back-to-back 1K tournaments this weekend, and I ran my TinFins list at both to a combined 10-3 record. Got to the semifinals of the Saturday tournament (60 players), and went 4-2 in the Sunday (55 players). Pretty sure y'all need to get on my level.
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Children of Korlis
1 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Griselbrand
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
4 Unmask
// Sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Scrubland
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Serenity
2 Show and Tell
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
The maindeck felt super tight. Chancellor was incredible, while Study and Unmask pulled their weight. My t1 "make a fat creature" percentage was something dumb like 50%. The sideboard is a bit looser. Most of the games I lost, I either didn't have enough mana sources to play my sideboard cards, had too many lands and didn't draw good answers to what they had, or the sideboard wasn't particularly relevant. Elesh Norn, the Thoughtseizes, and the Scrubland were decent.
In particular, Show and Tell and Mentor at 3 are just not really able to be supported as is. The deck wants another 2+ cantrips and another 1-2 lands if it wants to maximize them. I think I'll next try the same maindeck and this sideboard:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Serenity
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
A lot of the games are a blur at this point, but I'll link to VODs when I can.
Saturday
R1 D&T - 1-0
R2 Infect - 2-0
R3 BUG Delver - 3-0
R4 Shardless BUG - 4-0
R5 Bant Deathblade - 5-0 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=04h23m)
R6 ID
T8 D&T 6-0-1 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=06h24m)
T4 Aggro Loam 6-1-1 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129571605?t=07h31m)
Upshots from this tournament - Deathrite is pretty useless against this build. Careful Study can dump multiple creatures and there are 8 effects that don't target a creature. D&T feels like it should be a bad matchup - they usually have 2 Macabre and RiP postboard - but I keep on eking out unlikely victories. The aggro loam loss was pure variance, it's a pretty good matchup. Mulled to 4 before I found a hand that was functional, then had 3 turns to draw any mana source to win and bricked.
Sunday
R1 Miracles - 0-1 (losing to probably the best player in the room, unfortunate pairing)
R2 Infect - 1-1
R3 D&T - 2-1 (rematch of the T4 match from yesterday)
R4 ANT - 3-1
R5 D&T - 4-1
R6 Moon Stompy - 4-2 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/129815998?t=05h18m)
I don't know how I keep on beating D&T, it really seems unlikely. In both matches, they had one game where they had all the hate, and then one game where their hand was garbage and I had a fast start. The Moon Stompy deck was incredibly metagamed against the field, particularly reanimator, and seems like a <35% matchup. Infect is actually not losable.
If you're curious about sideboarding, I can jot down some notes later.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I would love the sideboard notes, and also your thoughts on running only 2 seas, (I have 2 of each dual relevant dual but no third sea) was just slotting the 2nd tundra in that spot, but unsure if its the optimal over just another fetch. Thanks.
I too would be interested in SB notes.
Couple other questions: Is the 1-of Serenity is worth it. How do you maximize chances of seeing it in post-board games, just SDT? What is the function of the 1-of Collective Brutality MD?
The Brutality main is an answer to troublesome creatures and also a maindeck Ensnaring Bridge. It's ok, not great, but the ability to win through weird situations makes it worthwhile I think.
Yeah, the 1-of is maybe a bad idea. I realized though that most of the decks where I thought I would want Serenity, it just really isn't that good. As a 1-of, you can still draw your deck to find it, and sometimes you'll lucksack into it.
Miracles - They play a ton of 2s now, so getting it through Counterbalance is tough. They don't play Rest in Peace any more, and do play Wear / Tear. I stopped bringing it in here.
D&T - I used to think it's great, but now stop bringing it in. The better plan is to race and use discard to clear the path. If they get Revoker on Griselbrand, it's not a big deal because you can still kill them with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.
Chalice decks - Here Serenity is great, but I think most of these decks you can beat with Mentor.
Leyline decks - Most also play Chalice, and again the plan is Mentor
Sideboard notes to come later.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I figured if you could draw your deck you probably didn't need the Serenity that much anyway.
Thanks for the quick reply though. Looking forward to SB notes. Watching the VODs now.. :)
So in the D&T VOD they talk about a 7 card loop to kill with Brutality. Can you expound on that? I would like to understand so i could pull this off without f-ing myself. Explain as if to a child ;)
Pretty sure it's the general Children + Grizzlebees + Emrakul looping but you just cast Brutality as a single Tendrils copy every iteration. Use all your rituals/petals, crack children, cast Brutality, pitch Emrakul to escalate, repeat until opponent wishes they were having less fun.
I could be wrong, haven't played this deck in a long time.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Yes, that's it. It's the same loop to hardcast Emrakul, but you're just casting Collective Brutality every turn instead. This, as phazonmutant mentioned, gets around some weird corner cases that we've been arguing about with regards to the Tendrils slot for a few years now. :)
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
As long as there's no technical gotcha way to screw it up. Cuz if there is, I will find it.
I didn't realise you can loop Brutality like that, nice!
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