I played 20 leagues (100 Matches) as clone103 on mtgo and kept track of my results in a spreadsheet. SB never changed and main board was always within 2 cards of the list provided below. Thought I'd share the important stuff/records vs each archetype/general SB stuff/etc. Hope you all get something out of it.
Overall record: 59-41. Lost my last match to not hit the 60% threshold and it was also a trophy match--boo. Was going to be very happy if I could hit 65%, and satisfied at 60...almost, but overall a disappointment.
Pre-board record: 60-40. This seemed surprisingly low to me. This is a game 1 powerhouse deck, and I def think I was winning at a higher clip prior to this 100 matches. I only play Fins variants, so people sniping me and mulling to hands with DRS/FOW more aggressively could be a factor.
Post-board record: 79-69. This, on the other hand, seems surprisingly high. If this deck is winning even 50% of SB games, that is a very good sign. I think this shows my SB plan is generally strong.
The Deck:
Creatures (6)
4 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
Artifacts (5)
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
Spells (35)
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Collective Brutality
4 Unmask
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Careful Study
1 Abrupt Decay
Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Reverent Silence
Build notes:
2 Thoughtseize: Strongly feel TS>Therapy. Pre board I think Therapy is slightly better, but post board I think TS reliability is crucial in many matchups. I'll discuss in sideboarding section. I'd always still play at least 1 Therapy as it is sometimes a sac outlet when you need to make another Griselbrand next turn, or turns Children into discard.
2 Gitaxian Probe: Second Probe has recently become second Collective Brutality, which has been overperforming, and I need all the help I can get vs Grixis Delver.
2 Careful Study: I think 1 is mandatory in all 4xGriselbrand builds, but could see making the second something else (Ponder or Probe, most likely)...I like 2. Often board out, as they become much worse post where you often trim Griselbrands anyway and it's much more dangerous to throw him into the yard because of Surgical Extraction. Seriously can't stress how much better Careful Study + Griselbrand hands are than almost anything else game 1. Not even completely embarrassing when you can't bin a Griselbrand; it still digs 2 cards, and usually you can pitch something redundant.
1 Abrupt Decay: Similar to Brutality in that it's inefficient but gets the job done. Great game 1 out to Chalice and Counterbalance lock. Kills DRS in a pinch. Pitches to Unmask. Cuttable, but I'd want to make room for the third in the board, if so.
1 Island: I think this is important, though I wish that I could play Tropical Island either instead-of or in addition to Bayou. Don't think I want to leave home without Island though...I think Chrome Mox would have to get cut for me to get the Trop in.
Results:
5-0 Trophies: 0 <DAMMIT!>
4-1s: 6 (4 of these started with 4-0 and I lost all, as I am a choke artist)
3-2s: 8
2-3s: 5
1-4s: 1
0-5s: 0
Miracles: 8-2 I obviously ran hot here, but I think my board plan is very good (I'll outline below) and I am aiming to make this matchup as strong as possible. I think this list is probably a small dog at worst vs. a good pilot and at least a slight favorite vs a suboptimal pilot. Both of my losses were to players with lots of trophies (ThisIsaCatInTheHat and lllllll)
Grixis Delver: 4-7. What can I say? This one just feels rough, and I haven't figured out how to solve it post board. Ideas welcome, I'll outline my plan below.
BUG Delver: 3-3. Fairly similar to above...both are a small sample, but for whatever reason this matchup feels more manageable. I think Stifle and/or Cabal Therapy from Grixis really push it over the top vs us. Two of these wins were against malimujo (also lost once to him) and m0ller, so I wasn't playing chumps.
Canadian Threshold: 2-2. Probably worse for us than BUG, also because of Stifle.
Aluren: 2-0. This is probably the most favorable of the DRS/FOW decks, as those are the main cards that are positioned well vs us, rather than every single card in some of the above decks!
Czech Pile: 0-4. This matchup feels similarly miserable, if not worse, than Grixis delver. There is often more disruption in the main (Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Thoughtseize) and Snapcasters make life difficult post board because making them discard Surgical is no longer enough. Certainly not happy this deck seems to be on the rise.
Eldrazi Aggro: 1-4. I wouldn't have predicted this result, but I have to admit my one win was actually very lucky. I came back from an almost unwinnable position where I was at 2, facing Reality Smasher and Thought Knot, and had no cards in hand. And he had a Leyline of the Void in play (though I had Griselbrand in yard already). Shallow Grave off the top and some luck/tight play was enough to pull out a really close one. I don't know, it doesn't feel like it should be this bad--I do think I had below average draws across the board. I remember several games just bricking on Reanimation for several turns while churning with Brainstorms and Ponders, and it also felt like they had turn 1 Chalice (or turn 0 leyline post board without mulling much) more than average. Did win a post SB game vs Qernavak where he mulled to zero game 2 (all skill baby), but ofc lost the match.
Big Eldrazi: 2-1
ANT/TES: 4-1 (2-1 ANT, 2-0 TES)
Burn: 4-0
Belcher: 3-1
Elves: 1-1
Manaless Dredge/LED Dredge: 4-0 (3-0 vs Manaless; has anyone ever lost this matchup? It's soooo good).
Painter: 1-1
Turbo Depths: 0-1
Mono Red Sneak "Big Red": 2-0
Sneak and Show/Omnitell: 3-3
Tin Fins: 1-0 baby! Sorry Kaluma.
RB Reanimator: 3-1
UB Reanimator: 3-0 All of these Reanimator matchups feel like they should be coin flips (if not worse because they have Reanimate advantage), but for whatever reason I keep winning.
Stoneblade: 2-1 Apparently these decks still exist?
UG TitanPost: 0-1
Nic Fit: 1-2 I know this should be good, but they do have tools...DRS and Cabal Therapy, Surgical post. It's not a bye.
Death and Taxes: 0-1 Underrepped on mtgo. It's a scary matchup, but in my limited experience not quite as bad as some of you are making it out to be? I hope? I'm probably making room for third Massacre for GP Vegas.
"Other" 5-3
SB Plans for Key matchups:
Miracles: -2 Careful Study, -2 Probe, -2 Griselbrand, -1 Chrome Mox. +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Duress, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Reverent Silence. Surgical isn't super awesome, but the first one has enough utility...counters Snapcaster, shuffles if they've been hiding with top, acts as pseudo-discard. I would never want to draw 2, so I board in 1. Same with Rev Silence. It's an ok answer to Counterbalance but drawing 2 would always be bad.
What is most interesting is that I treat Miracles a lot differently than I used to. I no longer try to mulligan to/jam the combo as fast as possible and pray. Granted, there are hands where you have little choice, but in general I prefer to slow down, which seems counterproductive, but really without fearing the lock (due to Abrupt Decay) you are often able to sculpt a winning turn with discard. I prefer discard heavy hands to even Ritual/Entomb/SG hands post board, since most times jamming the combo in the dark just loses to FOW or Surgical. It's important to save at least one discard spell for the turn you go off. Don't be afraid to say go few times to turn on those Unmasks. Post board vs Miracles is where Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy shines the most. It is CRUCIAL to never...ever...miss. And there are far too many cards to play around, that you can't even come close to guaranteeing a good outcome off of a blind Therapy. I would never cut the first Therapy from the deck, as it is on occasion a useful tool as a sacrifice outlet when you need to make Griselbrand again next turn, or it can rarely turn Children into another discard spell. But I strongly feel TS is the better card in this deck, primarily because you need the reliability post board (in this and other matchups).
I think this matchup is a big reason to play green.
All DRS/FOW decks (Grixis and BUG Delver/Aluren/Czech/etc):
-2 Careful Study, -2 Probe, -2 Griselbrand. +2 Fatal Push, +2 Duress, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 CoV. If I have 2x Collective Brutality in main instead of 1 probe I board in the same cards generally and cut the Abrupt Decay if they have Wasteland, as I hate fetching Bayou and want to fetch Island.
I haven't been doing well here...It just seems tough, but I think this plan is the best I've got. Maybe City of Solitude could be good? But it's so slow...
vs Burn side out all the stuff that deals damage to you (this is the spot where TS life loss vs Therapy does matter a lot, but it is a favorable matchup nonetheless). Reverent Silences shine here as some Burn plays Leyline, some play Pyrostatic Pillar/Vortex, but they ALL play Eidolon of the Great Revel. Gotcha.
The rest of the matchups are mainly obvious. I usually bring in Reverent Silence vs anyone who almost certainly has Leyline, and just the CoVs vs the maybes:
EDIT: So much for tuning to beat Miracles!
Last edited by Jblinder; 04-24-2017 at 12:57 PM.
So with Miracles gone, how do you guys see the future of Tin Fins? Combo and Elves will get more popular, which is generally good for us. Delver might get played more too, which is probably not a good thing. Grave hate in general might become more prevalent, at least temporarily, since decks will not have to dedicate as many side board slots to Miracles. Fewer Abrupt Decays and more Extractions/RIP/etc won't be fun.
What are you guys replacing your tops with in the main? I only had 1. The obvious answer would be another dig spell, but is Preordain good enough? I was considering a second copy of Collective Brutality. Never unhappy to see my lone copy. Good against Delver and hate bears in addition to being discard and an outlet (and a win condition). Man that card does everything.
I think the Mentor plan gets a bit better now with fewer Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decays running around as well.
Here's what I have tentatively.
//Creatures
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
//Instants
4 Entomb
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
//Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Reanimate
//Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
//Lands
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
//Sideboard
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
SB: 3 Dark Confidant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
I predict a bunch of Uxy tempo, value and combo decks with SB Cages and Surgicals flooding into the format.Originally Posted by supachai
- Delver variants (Grixis, BUG, 4c) for fast clock combined with tax counters
- Shardless/Stoneforge/Pernicious Deed value based midrange aimed to win delver/aggro MUs with a bunch of control toolboxing
- Food Chain, Aluren, random combo decks running FoW now that Miracles is gone
The bad thing is, playing versus Miracles variants was more straightforward than trying to figure out which of these decks the opponent is actually on, and which grave hate are they most likely running in the sb based on that info.
As for top:
If you are running less than 4 Probe/Ponder, upping the count by 1 is a good choice. If you have both at 4, Preordain and Sleight of Hand (if you prefer keeping your mana open to play some mind games) seem like the next best things to me.
For disruption, extra Unmask/Spell Pierce/Thoughtseize/Collective Brutality/Abrupt Decay/bounce spell/Daze are all valid options.
Personally, I have not sleeved up Tin Fins in a loooong time, but I would probably go for a 1-of Daze. It's a versatile card against a lot of nasty stuff both pre and post sb.
Wrote some thoughts about post-ban changes to the sideboard, especially the Mentor transformative sideboard:
https://blog.seemsgood.com/thoughts-...-post-top-ban/
You missed where Silence becomes pretty amazing, and also that Pull from Eternity is pretty sexy these days with all the exile happening. Additionally, there's Leyline of Sanctity where no discard, burn or sacrifice effects can be used. Stifle is a concern right now also, and 2 basics is better now.
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So I took RB TinFins with me this weekend to GP Richmond to play in some legacy side events. I only managed to get in 1 but ran well (3-1), and so far what I've seen from the meta is, a lot of delver/tempo variants. Sultai delver, Noble BUG, Grixis Pyromancer, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile (). And then more chalice decks than I care to see.
Combo was more prevalent, or at least more represented at the winning tables, but a lot of side board were all over the place. Not a ton of grave hate as I would have expected. Also, a ridiculous amount of surgical extractions but almost no faerie macabre's or leyline's to get in my way. Sideboards seemed to be gered to dealing with storm and sneak and show a lot more.
Still a small sample. I only saw about 70 decks played from the north east/mid east coast section, but maybe it will help everyone else prepare for a big event.
Good Luck.
I got a top 8 at another Legacy GPT with my updated nearly mono black list. 2-2 in the swiss and lost in the quarters.
Swiss: 2-2
Rd1 Aluren: 2-0
Rd2 Burn: 2-1
Rd3 Maverick: 1-2
Rd4 Burn: 1-2
Top8 Mav (rematch from rd 3): 1-2
The mav player and the 2nd burn player both had Leyline of the Void after board and i couldn't get to Serenity in time. Makes me wonder if I should run 4x if Leylines appear a lot locally. OG Thalia also squeezed the mana development a lot out of the Mav opponent. Iona in the board was great against Burn and Aluren. I expected Elesh to do more work against Mav until I saw Leyline.
So I've been thinking about building this deck for awhile now but I had a question;
1. Why is the deck not running Tendrils anymore? Is Emrakul just better?
"The enemy is getting too close! Quick! Inflate the toad!"
You can execute a loop with Griselbrand activations, Children of Korlis allowing infinite draws, and Emrakul to shuffle back in. The typical best "win-con" is no longer Tendrils, because Collective Brutality kills your opponent once you establish the loop.
The drain effect is only really needed against Ensnaring Bridge or other fringe situations.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
many of my opponents died to attack for 22.
The Reanimator Depths that took 7th at Big Magic Open recently has me thinking.
[DECK]
2 Griselbrand
2 Grave Titan
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Platinum Angel
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Exhume
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Collective Brutality
//Sideboard
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Duress
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
[/DECK]
Specifically, I'm thinking about transformational sideboarding. What if the man plan was Marit Lage? Could front-load a little with, say, an Urborg and a Rite of Consumption (not exactly dead for us), and the SB might look like this:
[DECK]
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
1 Rite of Consumption
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
[/DECK]
The biggest problem I see with the traditional manplan is that people randomly leave in stuff like abrupt decay and other creature hate (they seem to think it's traditional reanimator, which might not be a problem at higher level events, i suppose), which is pretty much solved by this line. Death and Taxes becomes teeeeerrible (must play the Rite), but prison decks that land chalice on 1 become much more winnable.
Last edited by jugglervr; 05-23-2017 at 12:30 PM.
What about just jamming both combos? Similar to the listed deck but more on the Fins style plan. I tried the following out in the tournament practice queues and it's actually been performing quite well.
4 griselbrand
1 children of korlis
1 laboratory maniac
4 vampire hexmage
4 dark ritual
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
4 exhume
4 unburial rites
4 unmask
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 thespians stage
4 dark depths
1 scrubland
2 swamp
3 polluted delta
Lab man doesn't have the advantage of emrakul in that you can't animate him in a pinch to wipe their board, but he plays better with LED and is a surprisingly clean and effective kill with griselbrand and children. Losing brainstorm is clearly bad, but this deck is so combo-dense I haven't really missed it. I have many turn 1 lab man kills already in about 12 games (at least 3) and marit lage has been involved enough that I've been very happy with it.
Other than pithing needles (could see up to 4 being right) I really don't know what to do with the board. I'm even considering doing what the guy above did there too...something like. 4 leyline of the void, 1 Rest In Peace, 1 helm of obedience, 4 enlightened tutor, 4 pithing needle...1 something else. Maybe animate dead as a tutor target so you can leave 1 griselbrand in when you're on helm plan (I'm thinking primarily vs opposing reanimator decks.
Really the deck doesn't want to sideboard much very often, and because it attacks from two angles their sideboard hate shouldn't be as backbreaking. I think this might be kind of good...
EDIT: I've been liking 3 needles and 2 not of this world in the board for any Karakas matchup, and some of the usual suspects like a couple massacres, 3 surgical and some thoughtseizes to round it out. I usually cut a couple unburial rites in most matchups. Vs some decks I cut unmask, and others (delver) I trim lions eye diamonds, but I like a couple because they are really good on the combo turn (you can also go allin on thespian stage/depths on turn 2 with led, which is often actually good). Went 3-2 in my first real league and I'm 2-2 in the next with one of my most hilarious misplays ever leading to one of my losses vs julian23 (I had entomb/exhume, but I just spaced out while talking with my wife and didn't cast the entomb on his endstep, then cast my exhume for nothing).
Actually, I still think this deck is legit, and I'll probably be on something like this for gp Vegas. Trying to find room for one more swamp, otherwise I'm really happy with the main.
Last edited by Jblinder; 05-31-2017 at 01:55 AM.
If you do that, I'd consider running the second Helm in the last slot.
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So where do we stand with Tin Fins currently? I'm pretty close to having the deck built, wondering if any of you guys are still living the fast combo dream!
I recently acquired a signed Children of Korlis - so I've decided that until I can come across signed sets of Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance, I can't play this deck. It's just too ugly now. I get too distracted when looking at my openers to even figure out how to mulligan. I've been mulling to more sigs and that's just no way to live life.
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
The Bank of Logan is always open to store your fancy cards and save you from the torment of having not enough signed cards
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
I've been trying to reach John Coulthart (artist of shallow grave) but haven't had any success. Any thoughts? I too am trying to posture with TinFins.
What kind of interest rates do you provide? :)The Bank of Logan is always open to store your fancy cards and save you from the torment of having not enough signed cards
I've failed at every turn as well. :( And getting signed Probes is going to be well... next to impossible. This is a tough deck to get entirely signed. If you get a lead though, please let me know!
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Interest payments are in the form of fine libations
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
Well if you're bursting at an event that we're both at, you're welcome to borrow any stuff I happen to be not playing that day. :)Interest payments are in the form of fine libations
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
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