I'm saying it's not an answer to Chalice, and I want at least three answers, hence 2 Serenity + EE, with only 1 CoV. If I went to 2 CoV and cut the EE, I feel like I'd be a little underprepared for Chalice on 1.Originally Posted by DNSolver
Since the banning of top, the DD transformation has left me wanting more. Using Act on Impulse for a storm out has required the red mana/LEDs in the base and more complication. When I bring TinFins to a tournament, I just want to burst onions, get a snack, and get ready for the next round. If I wanted complexity and thinking, that's what my new formed Doomsday deck is designed to do. My sideboard is part reactive and part transformational. It's been a weird transition away from U and brainstorm, but I really am enjoying Gamble instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault. Yes, sometimes it will screw you, but if you learn how to play with it, it can be very, very effective. Also, I am very much enjoying playing Stronghold Gambit against lands and similar opponents. So here's my most current list:
// 6 Creature
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
// 15 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
// 21 Sorcery
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Unmask
2 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate
// 4 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
// 14 Land
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 2 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 3 Burning Wish
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Gamble
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Reanimate
Since you're not boarding into the mentor plan I would definitely recommend massacre over toxic deluge.
Deluge hits more, sure, but I've only found wanting the -x/-x against d&t/hatebear strategies. TNN or anything like that never really bothered me. I also felt that the Burning wish board ate up too many resources but that's just me. To note, I haven't played a burning wish package in this deck since around the time mentor first became legal.
This dude gets it.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
The only change I've made after playing the last 2 weeks has been -1 Thoughtseize and +1 Goryo's. I keep going back and forth between Toxic Deluge and Massacre (I have 4 in paper). I'll be running the massacre with my play group this week. I'm also very seriously considering running 1 corpse dance over the reanimate main deck. Chalice at 2 is a PITA. Also thinking about -1 cabal & -1 gamble sideboard for +2 collective brutality
Last edited by scottpou; 12-06-2017 at 10:57 PM.
Afternoon TinFinians.
It's been a while since anything updated here but there is 1 card from Rivals that I think is worth considering.
Silent Gravestone
I've had a blast playing Ground Seal, but this costing 1 and not needing the splash is worth trying at the very least.
I do play 4 Exhume instead of 4 Goryo's Vengeance which took some getting used to, but allows for the old fashioned reanimator turn as well as the combo turn (feels good when reanimator is less of a combo deck).
My current list for reference:
//Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
//Creatures
4 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
//Art.
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
//Sideboard
4 Wear // Tear
1 Grave Titan
4 Silent Gravestone
2 Massacre
2 Stronghold Gambit
2 Disenchant
You should probably run Lions eye diamond over mox at that point. Cast exhume/shallow Graves, activate LED in response to put your Griseldaddy in the grave
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I previously tried the burning LED build but found it underwhelming which in turn led me to cut them completely. The chrome mox is I think part of the warping that results from exhume. If you go all in on a turn 1 exhume griselbrand, and draw 14 cards, chrome mox is lotus petal 5-6 to allow you to keep going. Although it has been a long time since I've played without them.
Using Exhume, Shallow Grave and Silent Gravestone also opens up Necrotic Ooze and Volrath's Shapeshifter.
LED, Exhume keeping priority, crack LED in response to Exhume to discard Griselbrand, gain 3 mana, Exhume resolves putting Griselbrand into play.
In this specific corner case, Chrome Mox instead of LED in the hand would have required a discard method and netted less mana for the combo turn post Griselbrand draw. With the upside of providing 1 extra mana precombo and not discarding the whole hand.
Drawing into LEDs instead of Chrome Moxes with Griselbrand draws is worse if you have 0 mana in the pool when you start the extra draws. You need 1 black for Dark Ritual or 2 mana for Exhume/Shallow Grave or 1 white for hard cast Children to keep going. LED just gets rid of your hand, unless you get a LED in the first draw 7, gamble by breaking LED for 3 mana to rely on the second draw 7. Spanish Inquisition playstyle.
I don't think that the BR build seems very competitive. You are giving up a lot over traditional BR Reanimator and not gaining a lot from playing the TinFins tech, other than fun :)
As far as the blue versions, I have played a few leagues with an Esper build with Mentor sideboard similar to what SB3K was playing online awhile back. I recently tried a change to increase the consistency of finding Entomb by cutting 4 Git Probes for 4 Preordains. The incidental lifeloss and lack of good digging power was making me not like probe, despite that it plays very nicely with Mentor post-board. Here's the list:
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children
4 Entomb
2 Reanimate
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox (been considering cutting one because I almost always board one out...thoughts on replacement?)
3 USea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Delta
2 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
SB:
4 Mentor
3 Echoing Truth
4 StP
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
Is Lim-Dul's Vault a better tool for finding Entomb, and Mentor post-board? I don't really like that it costs you a whole card to find it, because 1) Entomb is going to "cost" you another card, and 2) often you are looking for Mentor + 3rd mana source post-board.
I considered Intuition or Cunning Wish as another way to bin fatties, but other than running 7+ fatties and more discard / loot effects I don't see a more consistent way to bin Griselbrands.
Anyway, just wanted to share that I've been liking the Preordains. On stream, I went 4-1 then 1-3 with the build, then in the past few days I 5-0'd and 4-1'd. Mentors were hurt a bit from fewer free spells, but digging felt really good.
Matchups in general:
D+T: Matchup feels great. On the play, I've been typically going in on the combo and keeping hands that reflect that. On the draw, I've been on the Mentor plan. G3 I've been evaluating Their best play on turn 1 is sometimes Karakas pass, and Mentor is strong vs that.
Grixis Delver: Feels 50/50. Mentor can randomly wreck them, boarding back into the combo once they see Mentor can be good. I've been bringing in removal no matter what though.
Czech: Feels like a pretty good matchup. They are softer to the combo G1 because they don't have Daze/Pierce, though they do have Thoughtseize and Hymn...They are also much softer to Mentor post-board because they don't have Bolts - usually the Fatal Pushes are gone and replaced with Diabolic Edicts. Their Flusters + Pyroblasts also look pretty bad vs Mentor. They don't have Daze so jamming turn 2 or 3 Mentor can get there - with a discard spell or Fluster backup of course.
Miracles: Pretty good matchup. Counterbalance doesn't do much vs Mentor when we are slower post-board, just have to resolve dig spells or discard spells before that - haven't seen much removal post-board out of them.
Prison: 3ball is the only thing I'm super worried about here. I've been boarding Mentors, bounce, and removal typically. 4C loam if they leave in PFire is pretty annoying because they can combat both plans pretty effectively through Leyline + PFire. Not sure what to do about that.
Storm: Pretty 50/50. I board in Flusters but not Mentors or Surgicals. Someone will eventually topdeck something and win.
Reanimator mirror: Very swingy but unfavored vs BR obviously. We can board 2 Flusters 2 Surgicals and hope. On the draw, mulling aggressively against a kept 7 is necessary. Against bad players who just grab Iona, bring in Swords to Plowshares.
Lands: Pretty interesting matchup, but only two matches of experience right now. Brought in Echoing Truths, but I think Mentors are horrible once they've seen them because of Tabernacle.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
I for one choose fun.
My current Br list
// 6 Creature
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
// 17 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Corpse Dance
// 21 Sorcery
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
2 Gamble
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish
// 5 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
// 13 Land
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Sorcery
SB: 3 Burning Wish
SB: 2 Stronghold Gambit
SB: 2 By Force
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Exhume
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
Last edited by scottpou; 01-07-2018 at 12:39 PM.
No reason to have Tendrils maindeck if you can have Wish instead.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Sometimes the mana isn't there. Sometimes the burning wish needs to be used to clear hate. I was actually thinking about pulling it out, but there's been some good discussions on the DDFT thread about opening up lines of play if you can squeeze the 1 in maindeck. I have found it valuable to have in the main. I would probably replace it with a TS if I did replace it.
EDIT: I have also dropped the 14th land and gone back to the 1 chrome mox. I got snagged several times over the last couple of weeks not having another mana source mid combo.
@Karhummies
I get how the loop would work but it's not a matter about having 1 extra mana post combo. I am not particularly worried about card disadvantage when the game plans contain 2 concise game plans, the reanimate side of things and the tin fins win. Both of these don't need a lot of resources, you just need them to start.
It might also just not be in my play style.
I strongly disagree. It goes faster, and can just do the good old reanimate plan if needed.
It's upgrade over the stock RB reanimator list in my mind is that Reanimator does not have a turn 1 win where this does.
Also, corner cases of CoBru for the slow tendrils is a small but non-zero percentage.
@scottpou I mean a 2nd Wish over the maindeck Tendrils. The mana will be accessible, you are using Children loop.
@Kobra_D My thoughts on BR Tinfins vs typical reanimator shell, want to expand on your "strong disagreement" with me with some points.
You have several huge sacrifices when you are using the TinFins strategy instead of typical BR. I agree that technically opponent going to zero life is a win. I also think that in 99% of cases, turn 1 Griselbrand + another creature in play (a typical BR turn 1 opening) is going to win anyway, unless you are not equipped with the proper creatures (ex. Grisel + Chancellor won't beat Lands, but Griselbrand + Tidespout easily will).
Another sacrifice is the fewer creatures. You only have 4 Griselbrand and possibly 4 Chancellor to combo with, assuming that Emrakul is not going to result in a win on turn 1 or 2. Typical BR will have 10 creatures. This means that Looting will bin a creature at a higher percentage. With only 4 copies of Entomb and no cantrips to find it, both decks need another way to put creatures in the graveyard. Both decks play Lootings and discard spells that can put creatures from hand to bin, but obviously having more creatures in the deck will result in that more often. Additionally, Children and Emrakul are either bad, or can even be *harmful or game-losing*, to draw, while any creature BR draws *can* be Reanimated effectively. If you play Chancellor as protection like BR (which you do, scottpau doesn't) there's the problem with Shallow Grave not working with it. So you are choosing between having less protection than BR or having a creature that doesn't work with 1/3 of your reanimation spells.
I like that your list is playing Reanimate. One sacrifice that scottpou's list has is that without the card Reanimate, you are not getting as many turn 1 Griselbrands. Count the mana - you need Dark rit or two petals while having Reanimate in the deck means that sometimes Dark Rit plus one petal will work. So we are equally "fast." Saying that a BR TinFins build "goes faster" to imply it comboes faster is just incorrect. Your combo enablers cost the same mana and you have the same number of them (12 reanimation, 4 entombs, 4 lootings, 8 discard).
I will now concede two points that I think are okay reasons to pursue BR Tinfins over BR Reanimator, but do not sway me enough compared to the above reasons because the above reasons address *consistency* rather than situations.
1) Perhaps you have a matchup-specific reason of something that cannot be beaten by Griselbrand + either Tidespout or Iona or Chancellor.
2) Perhaps you prefer having Shallow Grave to beat Surgical more easily.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Various tools from various colors:
Gamble
Grim Tutor
Living Wish
Eladamri's Call
Impulse
Lim-Dul's Vault
Intuition
Recruiter of the Guard
LDV tends to be the most versatile of the bunch as it's instant, cmc2, on color and finds anything. At the cost of -1 card and N life. Impulse has card parity, but digs only 4 cards deep for 2 mana. Intuition finds any 3-4of, but costs 3 mana and opens you up to Surgical.
Eladamri's Call could be nice due to cmc2, instant, card parity, but it's very off color and can not find Entomb in g1. Although it could find...Volrath's Shapeshifter (or something similar).
Running additional Young Pyros to supplement the Mentors would also be possible, but that's very offcolor as well. Gamble is mana efficient and no life loss but (semi) unreliable.
My strong disagreement was in response to the line that the RB build itself is not competitive. A linear T1 gameplan, with a T1 back up, that can continue to threaten a win every turn of the game will always be decent.
As a comparison, belcher has a T1 win but if fizzles is a bit hosed. Where as Tin Fins can keep threatening a win with less of a reload time. Irrespective of the build, if it is functional in achieving this then I think any of them are as competitive as the sideboard hate that will come in post board. Sometimes, we're unlucky and variance does happen but it's not a controversial statement to say that G1 is ours to lose, not our opponents to win.
There is a concession between RB and TinFins. RB does get a slight more of a toolbox, but can back itself into a corner. We've all seen, heard about, or even played the T1 sire of insanity. Sometimes that's not good enough. Or Iona isn't always a lock. Edict effects can hose you out of no where. When you get the opportunity to reanimate a griselbrand somehow, and draw that first 7/14, the game is very much to your advantage but it is not over. In RB the story ends there but children provide that last out to close the game on the spot.
So yes, there are differences between reanimator and tin fins but from what I've seen it was always about RB opens up a tool box but gives your opponent more turns, where TinFins is going down on versatility to play less turns overall.
Reanimate has always been nice, it gives an extra out albeit the least appreciable. For Burning Wish builds I would strongly recommend trying LED, the value with wishing with 3 mana available is great.
My big issue with the UB version (originally was price when I started with this deck 3 yrs ago) is that it goes down on binning effects. We have 4 entomb and 8 discard in either list. Except I have 4 lootings where you've cut careful study. It's small, and brainstorm/ponder give you more inevitability but the extra looting effects do speed up and make the T1 a little more reliable.
We both have access to the same 4 card combo: Land, Ritual, Entomb, Shallow/Goryo. But I now get 1 extra 5 card opener which helps: Land, Looting, Petal, Griselbrand, Reanimate. Small difference, I agree, but having that extra redundancy early game is why I think the RB deck is faster than UB.
I cannot rebuild when it hits the fan like UB, but again, I'm trading the extra % I get in later turns for a slight advantage T1.
Maybe having the longevity is better suited for the fair meta that we seem to be in but I'm not here to go long, I just want to attack for 22 and explain what children of korlis does.... twice.
Oh, BR variants are a completely different deck than UBx. That's not questionable. Very very different, especially since BR can't run Mentor.
I was mostly arguing BR Reanimator shell vs the BR TinFins shell you had. However, your answers still make okay sense in the context you assumed. Except that part about the toolbox being bad. Your replacements for Tidespout, Iona, Sire (sadly, some people don't understand how bad it is) are Emrakul and Children, which don't do anything in hands that would result in Tidespout/Iona/Sire entering play. Pretty much, you will have hands like:
Land, Looting/thoughtseize, Petal, Reanimation spell, Children/Emrakul, (possibly more redundant mana, reanimation but NOT entomb)
While in a typical BR shell the Children/Emrakul would be a toolbox creature, and you would rather have that than nothing at all. Additionally, giving the opponent more turns doesn't matter if they're locked out (Iona) or can't play meaningful permanents (Tidespout).
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
I'm not arguing against toll box decks, or tool box play styles in general (I play Kiki-Chord in modern for all it's worth), it's just like you said, sometimes RB reanimator goes off without entomb and is subject to whichever fatty they have in hand reducing the strength of the toolbox.
Plus storm is a deck which can always go off after we reanimate a threat including Iona. Sneak attack decks can do the same. Any deck with Karakas, the tool box is not trivial.
So, yes let me revise my statement, you're opening hands are slightly more prone to a mulligan along with the lack of a toolbox.
But I personally am perfectly willing to risk that in order to play TinFins.
Mentor is not a great sideboard plan in RB, but when miracles was around I ran it.
Yo, if y'all wanna play bad decks that want to do cool things, check this pile I've been tinkering with out:
2 Magus of the Mind
3 Griselbrand
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Death Wish
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Corpse Dance
3 Collective Brutality
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
SB
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ground Seal
1 Buried Alive
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Corpse Dance
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
Who needs to have a good deck when you can just chain Mind's Desires and also cast Deathwish?
DRS, make your opponents confused and also mana ramp and get random value (suck it, opposing Surgicals!)
Entomb for Past in Flames, so rad.
Deathwish, life loss hurts, sure, but when you can grab your entire SB, it makes it harder to get janked out in those game 1s.
Ground Seal and your own DRS a nonbo? Just swap them out!
I started in BUG for Ground Seal and Decay, and I took a cue from the Czech pile decks and added DRS as a form of mana ramp, as we need an extra blue to activate Magus, and sometimes an extra mana to cast Corpse Dance. I haven't ran into the issue of opponents removing DRS in response to Reanimation, but it is something to be aware of. I did bump into one instance of having out DRS and a Ground Seal, but given my opponent was running Surgical that game, it seemed worth the risk.
The list could be Grixis over BUG, since that new Ground Seal effect is colorless, and BW is better than Death Wish. Mana base you can just swap the Verdants and non USea duals to their Red counterparts, drop DRS, DW for BW and some amount of Ponder, then make the sideboard more of a standard 7 Wish targets, 8 non wish targets.
I kind of want Children in the deck, but going off with Magus doesn't require a high life total, and as long as you are above 1 life, you can still cast Death Wish, so I haven't bothered with trying to slot it in.
Is the list better than the stock list I usually champion? No, but it's certainly a blast to play for FNM or side events, and it's pretty sweet once it starts going off.
Pro tip: if you can't activate Magus for more than 6, reanimate Griselbrand first.
Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
@acclimation6 on twitter
Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg
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