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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #21

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Can this list win without Griselbrand?
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  2. #22
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    Can this list win without Griselbrand?
    Yes, it can, although that rarely comes up due to instant speed reanimation. You can almost always respond to graveyard removal with a reanimation spell to get griselbrand out of the yard (although not in the case of Extirpate, obv). There were cases where I hit an opponent with Griselbrand once, fizzled on my draws, and wasn't able to get another one out of the yard. In that case, I cast a bunch of artifact mana and rituals into Tendrils for the kill.

  3. #23

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    From the report I read there were multiple occasions where the player couldn't win post-Griselbrand with Tendrils, much less with the ability to win pre-Griselbrand. If that's the case, seems like you should just build a straight-up Reanimator list.
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  4. #24
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    From the report I read there were multiple occasions where the player couldn't win post-Griselbrand with Tendrils, much less with the ability to win pre-Griselbrand. If that's the case, seems like you should just build a straight-up Reanimator list.
    Yeah, I did end up fizzling a lot - which I found surprising. I would have thought that I could find 1/3 Tendrils when drawing 21 more often than I did - have to chalk that one up to variance I guess. But that said, even if you fizzle, you're practically assured to win the following turn, as you just sculpted the best hand on the planet, and discarded more fuel into your graveyard. I never felt that after an initial fizzle that I was in a poor position to win.

    /edit: and as far as this vs. Reanimator: I feel like there are a couple advantages over Reanimator: 1. instant speed reanimation without losing any life is pretty huge, and gives you a lot of flexibility. 2. It's a much faster win condition than Reanimator, as you don't need to rely on your attack step to win. Reanimator definitely has some advantages though, in that your dudes stick around after EOT, and you have more reanimation targets. It may just depend on what kind of decks are currently in the crosshairs for sideboard hate: if there is a lot of grave hate, this deck might be better. If there is a lot of storm hate: reanimator might be better. Either way, it's WAY faster than Reanimator, and a lot of times can win before your opponent drops any hate anyway.
    Last edited by .dk; 07-05-2012 at 11:26 AM. Reason: address reanimator question

  5. #25

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    The counter-risk is the inability to fight a protracted counter war.

    FYI, the deck seems like it's in desperate need of some Grim Tutors.
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  6. #26
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    The counter-risk is the inability to fight a protracted counter war.

    FYI, the deck seems like it's in desperate need of some Grim Tutors.
    I will say, counter wars generally aren't a huge problem for this deck. You run enough mana sources to play around soft counters, and enough reanimation effects to power through force of wills and bleed their hand. There aren't enough decks out there running a multitude of hard counters that have a good effect now that most lists have cut Spell Snare.

    Grim Tutor is a damn good idea. I'll have to test with those. I was going to try out Lim-Dul's Vault as a 2 of - will have to test both.

  7. #27
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Grim Tutor is good, but what about Diabolic Intent? Costs one less and you can use Russellbrand as the fodder and no life loss?
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    If you aren't playing Ad Nauseum, isn't Thoughtseize better than Duress? Being able to hit Thalia is pretty important.
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  9. #29
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I built something similar with burning wish.

    4 lotus petal
    4 dark ritual
    2 cabal ritual
    4 lion's eye diamond
    4 careful study
    4 entomb
    2 goryos vengeance
    4 shallow grave
    4 griselbrand
    4 brainstorm
    3 ponder
    3 burning wish
    2 infernal tutor
    1 tendrils of agony

    2 swamp
    1 island
    3 underground sea
    1 volcanic island
    1 badlands
    4 polluted delta
    2 bloodstained mire
    1 flooded strand

    It turn ones or twos fairly consistently for pre board games. I haven't tested post board yet. mana base might need work but it's been fine so far.

    I want to get cabal therapy in there. When I do that I want to try putrid imp instead of careful study. Diabolic intent also might find a space.

    For sideboard I was thinking helmline combo + some show and tells + wishboard. They won't know what you're doing game 2 and they'll show in a gilded drake or something and just die.

  10. #30

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    I will say, counter wars generally aren't a huge problem for this deck. You run enough mana sources to play around soft counters, and enough reanimation effects to power through force of wills and bleed their hand. There aren't enough decks out there running a multitude of hard counters that have a good effect now that most lists have cut Spell Snare.

    Grim Tutor is a damn good idea. I'll have to test with those. I was going to try out Lim-Dul's Vault as a 2 of - will have to test both.
    You have about as many reanimate effects as most Reanimator lists, so why not just play that deck?
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    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
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    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

  11. #31
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    On thoughtseize: it's probably better. I didn't grab them in my haste to get to atlanta, although Inquisitions were doing good work against Thalia (not that I won any of those matches anyway...)

    On Diabolic Intent: yes, that would work if you've already gotten Griselbrand in play, and would be pretty awesome then, really. However, I would prefer something with a bit of utility prior to actually getting Gizzle into play - so something like Grim Tutor, Personal Tutor, or Lim-Dul's Vault might be better. Although post-reanimation, Diabolic Intent is likely the best choice. Worth testing, likely.

    @walker - cool list! earlier incarnations of this deck had LED, but we felt it was a bit all-in. It may be fine in the right construction, but we hadn't gotten there yet. We had been talking a lot about wanting a wish board, since the maindeck is so tight anyway. I worry that you have to dilute your rituals and tutors though with dedicating so much space to reanimation.

    @anusien - was pretty sure i at least pseudo addressed this before. it's faster - WAY faster to the point where a lot of times just you just don't care about hate because it hasn't hit the table yet. it also runs instant speed reanimation which is extremely important in terms of flexibility. play with the deck and test it. if you think reanimator is better - then go play that.
    Last edited by .dk; 07-05-2012 at 05:51 PM. Reason: typo
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Guevera59 View Post
    If you aren't playing Ad Nauseum, isn't Thoughtseize better than Duress? Being able to hit Thalia is pretty important.
    I've tested Thoughtseize a bit, but not enough to definitively say if it's better or worse than other options. On one hand, 2 life is not a big deal, on the other, 6 is. I'm almost leaning towards just going with IoK, since Force seems to be less of a problem here than Thalia, Teeg, or Chalice.
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  13. #33
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    You have about as many reanimate effects as most Reanimator lists, so why not just play that deck?
    Because this is a combo deck. It's really just ANT with a better draw engine than AdNaus, it just happens to be easiest to get into play from the graveyard. I mean, the strategy would be fundamentally the same with Sneak Attack and Through the Breach, it's just more expensive and off-color.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  14. #34
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Awesome deck and deck name! I did some game 1's with it on Cockatrice and it's quite the powerhouse! I agree you almost don't need protection - you just have so much business and speed.

    I felt like the deck was very mana-light. I have no idea what to cut, but throwing a couple of Cabal Rituals in the maindeck would help a lot with getting the kill post-Griselbrand and making a non-Griselbrand kill feasible. If possible, I'd also like to find room for the 4th Tendrils - you just don't have time to set up and find the Tendrils, nor do you have enough lands in play to cantrip multiple times after making a Griselbrand, so you want to maximize your chances of drawing it. Your man not sticking around makes the combo turn so much more critical.

    I'm not a huge fan of the transformative sideboard. You transform into a deck that's weaker to the extra counterspells they're going to bring in and you lose extra-hard to Thalia and Teeg. I'm thinking starting somewhere like this for a not-entirely-transformative sideboard:
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Emrakul
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Virtue's Ruin
    1 Slaughter Pact
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Wipe Away
    + flex slot

    Another Virtue's Ruin, Perish, Massacre, and Rebuild are all reasonable options.
    If you're not interest in killing all their men, Pithing Needle is a good option for Karakas, Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, etc.
    From experience with Reanimator, ANT, and Count Chocula, decks like Maverick are going to be your worst matchup. Your deck has the advantage of being super fucking fast, so you can just hope to get game 1 and be on the play for game 3. Definitely a couple of directions to take sideboarding. Like maybe on the draw board into Show and Tell + Thoughtseize? On the play board out an IMS or 2 and the Duresses for Chain, Slaughter Pact, Virtue's Ruin, and some Thoughtseizes?

  15. #35
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    You found it to be mana light? I'm either thinking its pretty close, if not 1 land too many. Been toying around with cutting one, but not totally sure yet. I never really seemed to have an issue with all of the artifact mana in there, at least prior to reanimation. A few fizzles were due to not quite enough rituals or artifact mana to storm high enough, but most seemed to be because I just couldn't find Tendrils. I think I may have fixed both problems, but I haven't tested it enough to be sure - stay tuned... ;)

    That sideboard plan is reasonable. I agree that the ANT board is pretty trashy, especially with no bounce. It's certainly worth a shot anyway - one issue with SnT though is that you lose the hastiness of Griselbrand, which is pretty huge. I've been trying to see if I can switch the manabase around a bit to support Red out of the board for rite of flame and sneak attack, but haven't had a chance to test that one much either. SnT with a couple Emrakuls may be better. I definitely like having a sideboard with room for bounce and sweepers though - that's so key with all of the hatebears running around, as you mentioned.

    The more I've thought about thoughtseize though, the less I like it. I think some combination of Duress, Inquisition, and Cabal Therapy are probably better. My reasoning is the case where you fizzle, but can tear apart their hand with a ritual into 2-3 discard spells to make sure they can't do anything the next turn. Thoughtseize isn't really viable in that case (corner case, I know, but still relevant) and you don't really give up much by not running them. My take anyway.
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  16. #36
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk
    You found it to be mana light? I'm either thinking its pretty close, if not 1 land too many.
    Sorry, I meant ritual-light. The land-base seems fine. If you have 3 Chrome Moxen, then cutting a land seems reasonable. I was having trouble finding the mana after drawing 21, which seems absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk
    one issue with SnT though is that you lose the hastiness of Griselbrand, which is pretty huge.
    Trust me, having Griselbrand on board at all is pretty solid ;) Rite of Flames plays nice with Chrome Mox (unlike Cabal Ritual) and Through the Breach, but the thing that really impressed me about our U/B Griselbrand storm decks is its rock-solid manabase. It may prove to be good though.

    Thoughtseize was fine for me all day, but you might be right that Duresses, Gitaxian Probe, and Cabal Therapy would be much better in this deck. It allows you to keep Griselbrand in your graveyard, too! You rely so much more on drawing 21 immediately since your man doesn't stick around, so the lifeloss is more relevant.

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    A playtest partner of mine's been running this deck with a couple additional Reanimation targets. Particularly, a Tidespout Tyrant which can be a good way to bounce hate, but also combos pretty well with Lotus Petal like in Vintage with Jewelery, neat way to build free storm.

    Not sure if it belongs MD or SB, but seems like it's worth a slot.
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Cairo
    A playtest partner of mine's been running this deck with a couple additional Reanimation targets. Particularly, a Tidespout Tyrant
    Are you talking about the same deck? Half the reanimation spells only get legendary creatures.

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Are you talking about the same deck? Half the reanimation spells only get legendary creatures.
    His list is slightly different, there's a couple Reanimate in the 60, but yea it uses the Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal accel package and Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance (which yes I realise can't Reanimate Tidespout) instant speed package. The Tyrant is a just a silver bullet for when it is needed.
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    (I've been testing Zombie Infestation replacing Tendrils of Agony. Cabal Therapy makes up the backbone of the discard suite in this iteration. The infestation kill is technically a turn slower, but does that really matter when you can Cabal Therapy their hand to Oblivion? Zombie Infestation has some advantages over Tendrils of Agony: 1) it is another discard outlet for Griselbrand pre-combo, 2) It costs less than ToA, making it easier to play post combo and thus helping against fizzling due to lack of mana, 3) it is unhindered by Gaddock Teeg, Stifle, and corner cases like Leyline of Sanctity. It has weaknesses of its own, of course, like being affected by stuff like Elephant Grass, Ensnaring Bring, Engineered Explosives, etc... But I thought I'd throw it out there because I think it's an interesting possibility.)

    EDIT: I tested this further and it's a bad idea.
    Last edited by Wanderlust; 07-15-2012 at 11:56 PM.
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