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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #41
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    I've been testing Zombie Infestation replacing Tendrils of Agony. Cabal Therapy makes up the backbone of the discard suite in this iteration. The infestation kill is technically a turn slower, but does that really matter when you can Cabal Therapy their hand to Oblivion? Zombie Infestation has some advantages over Tendrils of Agony: 1) it is another discard outlet for Griselbrand pre-combo, 2) It costs less than ToA, making it easier to play post combo and thus helping against fizzling due to lack of mana, 3) it is unhindered by Gaddock Teeg, Stifle, and corner cases like Leyline of Sanctity. It has weaknesses of its own, of course, like being affected by stuff like Elephant Grass, Ensnaring Bring, Engineered Explosives, etc... But I thought I'd throw it out there because I think it's an interesting possibility.
    No, too cute. This plan loses to Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse (all cards seeing play right now), and an opponent crushing you with Sneak Attack in the extra turns you gave him.

    The reason to play this deck over a Reanimator deck is so that you can avoid the whole attack step shenanigans. This deck is fantastic, and probably a lot better than ANT. It's only a matter of time before it is perfected, and starts seeing very good finishes (other than .dk's 86th place finish in Atlanta).

  2. #42

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I am thinking about rocking this at a Mox Tournament this weekend. So many formats on my plate right now that I just want to have fun in legacy.

    Only going to have a chance to theory craft:

    15 lands (2 swamp, 3 sea, 1 bayou, trop)

    4 Grisel
    7 reanimate
    4 entomb
    3 Mox
    4 Petal
    2 Tendrils
    3 LED
    3 Infernal
    4 BStorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Ritual
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Durress

    SB:
    3 Cabal
    1 Chrome mox
    1 LED
    1 Infernal
    3 Massacre
    2 Discard or Pact of Negation
    3 Xantid Swarm (could be silence)
    1 IGG

    I like the idea of boarding into basically belcher games 2/3. The original AdN seems turrible due to no longer leveraging GRisel and just slowing down generally. Whereas I have always like IGG versus non-blue decks.

    SB Plans:
    -6 reanimate spells
    -4 Entomb

    +6 tendrils cards
    +2 Discard

    then either Xantid or massacred depending on what they are.

    I will try to gold fish tonight and if it isn't working I will move to dk's original. Great Primer and Great deck.

  3. #43
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Try to fit careful studies in. Why not swap out the second tendrils for a maindeck IGG? I would go up to 4 LEDs and 4 infernal tutors maindeck. You can probably go down to 4 shallow grave as your reanimation spells and cut a couple lands.

  4. #44
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I wouldn't run LED or Tutor main. After running three lists with them and one without, I don't ever plan on going back. If you have to commit your entire hand to comboing, you need better protection, more discard or Chant/Silence. Careful Study, while sometimes the weakest card in the deck, is definitely worth including.

    Right now I'm working on a sideboard like this:

    4 Cabal Rit
    3 Chain of Vapor
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Additional Discard (testing cabal therapy right now)
    2 Virtue's Ruin

    It gets off the graveyard but it still feels less powerful overall. You lose an attack step and therefore 7 cards, the extra rituals help to offset that somewhat, but still doesn't feel great.

    The other option is a ton of protection along with Show and Tell, but so far it has seemed inherently weaker. You need Pithing Needle to beat Karakas/Maze, removal to handle bears, and counters to stop spot removal, and there just doesn't seem to be enough space in the board for it all. I keep cutting Cabal Rits, but then you basically lose any hope of having a second way to get Grizz in the yard.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I like LED + tutor. It makes the deck more explosive. Since shallow grave doesn't target you can use LED as a discard outlet. Thoughtsieze to make sure the coast is clear before going all in.

    As far as the sideboard goes, I haven't found something I like yet. I really don't like show and tell or any of the transformational sideboards I've tried. When this deck get's a solid sideboard it will be really strong.

  6. #46
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    I like LED + tutor. It makes the deck more explosive. Since shallow grave doesn't target you can use LED as a discard outlet. Thoughtsieze to make sure the coast is clear before going all in.

    As far as the sideboard goes, I haven't found something I like yet. I really don't like show and tell or any of the transformational sideboards I've tried. When this deck get's a solid sideboard it will be really strong.
    Not to put too fine of a point on it, but enjoy getting blown out by decks with countermagic. You're all in on your hand with LED - this deck doesn't run enough protection (specifically silence or chant) to be able to get that sequence to resolve reliably. It seems like a fun idea, and likely does speed te deck up a bit, but you really don't need it. I've tested it in previous incarnations of the deck - I'm guessing you'll come to the same conclusion. Consistent T2 as it is beats a lot of hate, and the resiliency of not being all in beats a lot of countermagic.
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  7. #47
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I've been trying a wish list on cockatrice and even if it's nice yo adapt to the hate they use it's clunky, the deck is fast but doesn't seems to have enough aceleration to suport cuning wish (maybe with led?).



    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study

    3 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand

    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Shallow Grave

    3 Tendrils of Agony

    3 Duress
    3 Cunning Wish


    SB: 1 Goryo's Vengeance
    SB: 1 Entomb
    SB: 1 Corpse Dance
    SB: 1 Pact of Negation
    SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
    SB: 1 Wipe Away
    SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
    SB: 1 Echoing Truth
    SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
    SB: 1 Sudden Spoiling
    SB: 1 Boomerang
    SB: 1 Stifle
    SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Orim's Chant
    SB: 1 Rushing River



    Also i've been masacrated by surgical extraction a lot... i think i want some counters maindeck.

  8. #48
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    The Channel Fireball crew played two karakas in their Reanimator deck at the GP. This deck should definitely steal that tech.

    Karakas plus Vendilion Clique in the board or possibly even main deck seems great for fighting through disruption, dealing some damage, maybe a block every now and then. In a pinch Clique is also a legal target for Goryo's Vengeance.
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  9. #49
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Played in a local tournament with the deck and split finals! Ton of fun. My list was:
    // Maindeck
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    3 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    4 Entomb
    4 Careful Study
    2 Cabal Ritual
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Griselbrand

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Swamp

    // Sideboard
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Virtue's Ruin
    2 Extirpate
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Wipe Away
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    I think I would cut one Careful Study for the fourth Ponder in the main and replace the fourth Show and Tell and Tendrils in the board with something that deals with Karakas.
    I played the Cabal Ritual because I thought it was a little ritual-light in testing and wanted a reasonable way to make Griselbrand going long, but it was relatively weak overall. Extirpate was for Reanimator, which seems like a bad matchup, especially if they have the 2x Karakas tech.

    Quick tournament recap:
    Round 1 - I played against Kobold Storm (Cheerios?). He Glimpsed, dropped some men, and passed. I ritual'ed into Entomb and an out turn 1 and killed him, seeing Grapeshot with a Duress. Boarded in an Echoing Truth in case he has Empty. He mulled to 5 game 2 and didn't do anything.

    Round 2 - My opponent was on Wal-Mart Burn. I caved his skull in with Griselbrand turn 2ish game 1. Boarded in a couple Show and Tells, an Emrakul, and a Chain in case he has Surgical or Pyrostatic Pillar. I struggle to find an out and he kills me turn 4ish. Game 3 he mulligans to 5 and passes with no plays. On his end step, I ritual, Entomb with Shallow Grave in hand, and then have to decide whether or not to play around Surgical. End up deciding that if I get Griselbrand and he Surgicals, I probably lose, but given that I have a Tendrils in hand, if I 15 him, I'm very likely to win and if he does Surgical I still have a good shot at winning. He doesn't have it and I kill him with Tendrils in a couple turns.

    Round 3 - He was playing a Bant Hexproof list similar to the one that top8'd like 5 opens ago (Unstable Mutation, Spectral Flight, Troll Ascetic, Geist of Saint Traft, etc). Game 1 I Ponder turn 1, then Entomb, drop land and Petal, and cast an out, but he Dazes. No matter, he replays his land, I drop another Petal and cast another and kill him. I board in a couple of Show and Tells, an Emrakul, a bounce spell, and another Thoughtseize for some Cabal Rituals, a Careful Study, a Goryo's Vengeance, and I think Chrome Mox. I have a hand with an Entomb and 3 outs and plenty of lands. He does nothing though, so I simply play lands and pass while he does the same. On 3 lands I go for an Entomb eot with the plan to attempt to tap him out for another go at it on my turn. It and the reanimation spell end up resolving though. I battle with Griselbrand, he StPs, I draw, he Vapor Snags, I draw again, putting me at 4 life and +14 cards. I kill him from 20 with Tendrils (after some harrowing cantripping to find it).

    Double draw into t8.

    Semis - I play the same burn guy. I win the roll, ritual into Entomb and Grave, kill him turn 1. I board the same, he Lava Spikes me. I drop land, Petal, Petal, Show and Tell -> Emrakul turn 1. He scoops.

    Quarters - I played yet another Wal-Mart burn deck. I get him turn 1. Dark Ritual is pretty good. Game 2 I mulligan and struggle to find either a man to Show and Tell or the second in + out to fight past his Nihil Spellbomb, but he kills me. Game 3 he again turn 1s a Spellbomb, but on my 3rd turn's upkeep, bounce it with Chain and Entomb. Unfortunately, I don't find what I need to go off that turn. He replays the Spellbomb and gets me down to 14, then on my turn I Show and Tell in an Emrakul, which he can't beat.


    Overall, the deck is insanely powerful and very consistent. Show and Tell adds a valuable dimension post-board. My matchups were lucky though - no real control decks, no Karakas.

  10. #50
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Nice report. Loaned the deck to a friend to take to SCG Vegas, I'll be interested to see if he actually plays it (how could you not choose this over RUG!?).

    Haven't played much lately, but got to wondering if it might be worth it to ditch the maindeck discard for something like 3x chain of vapor, 1x darkblast, or maybe 2 chain, 1 chrome mox, 1 darkblast. The deck seems to handle counters fairly well as it is. Much more annoying are permanent sources of hate like Thalia, Thorn, Chalice, etc. Might be worth a try.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  11. #51
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Played the same list as last time in this week's local legacy tournament and split top4. This tournament was a bit smaller, only 16ish people. I didn't have time to make the changes I had mentioned above.

    Round 1 - played against fellow Sourcer nedleeds. He usually is an apt metagamer with prison-style decks in our combo-infested meta, but this week he was on Naya stuff. I had a slow start game 1 while I tried to find an Entomb, but he kept a land-heavy 6 and only found Mother of Runes and Noble Hierarch for the first 4 turns. One of his lands happened to be a Karakas, though. I eventually put a Griselbrand in my grave, reanimated it, swung, got it bounced, drew 7 and couldn't find the Tendrils, so I discarded the Griselbrand and some other junk, keeping a duo of reanimation spells and an Entomb and mana. On his turn, he swung with Mother for 2 (with me at 5), I Dark Ritual'd, Entombed, and reanimated, and he bounced my man with Karakas, which cleared the way for me to reanimate and swing in for 7 on my turn, then find the kill. Boarded in a couple S&T, an Emrakul, a bounce, for a Chrome Mox, a Careful Study, a Goryo's Vengeance, and a Cabal Ritual. Next game he started with a Relic on turn 1 but couldn't find lands. I set up for a S&T on turn 3ish and won from there. I feel bad that he got so unlucky with his draws, but not playing Brainstorm is a huge handicap.
    1-0

    Round 2 - I played against a friend I lent the GP Ghent winning storm list to for his first legacy tournament. Game 1 I reanimated and drew 21 on turn 1, but couldn't find Tendrils. I did it again next turn, still couldn't find Tendrils. Killed him next turn. Duressing helped prevent him from going off. Game 2 he was able to Duress away my Entomb from my stacked t1 hand, then went off the next turn. Game 3 we had a grindy Duress-fest with him going down to like 15 from fetches and Thoughtseizes. I thought that I could kill him with a natural Tendrils, but miscounted and wasted a bunch of cards. He was able to go off a few turns later while I was Brainstorm-locked. He ended up chopping t4 as well :)
    1-1

    Round 3 - basically a bye. He was playing unsleeved cat tribal, and I crushed him 2-0.
    2-1

    Round 4 - ID

    Quarters - Dredge. Unlike most Dredgers, this guy actually knew how to play the deck, so there were some interesting games.
    Game 1 I attempted to find an Entomb for a t1 with a Brainstorm, missed, but played a Petal and Duress to take his Faithless Looting, leaving him LED, some lands, and some dredgers. He ripped a faithless looting and got his dredge going, but his Cabal Therapy whiffed (for some reason, Dredge players always name Dark Ritual, so I had hidden one on top). I Pondered into an Entomb and killed him from there. Boarded in 2 Extirpate and an Echoing Truth for Duresses. He had some bad dredges and I was able to Extirpate his Narcs and saw he boarded out his Ichorids. I wasn't doing a whole lot though, so he dredged and played Thug and was able to strip my hand and win. Game 3 I played a fetch, took it back, played Petal, Brainstorm in an attempt to shuffle away the 2 extra lands I had and try to speed up (I didn't need the Petal since I couldn't go off that turn). Found the business, but didn't have the Dark Rit to go off that turn, so I was on the EOT Entomb plan. He made the interesting play of land, ship. I reanimated, battled, and started to go off, but he was definitely playing like he had something. I decided he was bluffing and just went for it. After the match, he explained that he thought my hand was pretty bad because of the Lotus Petal play, so he had time to represent a bluff, despite having plenty of dredge action in hand. We decided that that he should have just tried to further his gameplan, especially since I usually don't respect bluffs (and most times, they don't have it!).

    We chopped top 4. Again, I played against no Force of Wills and had fairly reasonable luck, but this deck is definitely one that crushes non-U decks into the ground. Even fast combo like Dredge is favorable because you're just as fast and have sideboard disruption.

  12. #52
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Played the same list as last time in this week's local legacy tournament and split top4. This tournament was a bit smaller, only 16ish people. I didn't have time to make the changes I had mentioned above.

    Round 1 - played against fellow Sourcer nedleeds. He usually is an apt metagamer with prison-style decks in our combo-infested meta, but this week he was on Naya stuff. I had a slow start game 1 while I tried to find an Entomb, but he kept a land-heavy 6 and only found Mother of Runes and Noble Hierarch for the first 4 turns. One of his lands happened to be a Karakas, though. I eventually put a Griselbrand in my grave, reanimated it, swung, got it bounced, drew 7 and couldn't find the Tendrils, so I discarded the Griselbrand and some other junk, keeping a duo of reanimation spells and an Entomb and mana. On his turn, he swung with Mother for 2 (with me at 5), I Dark Ritual'd, Entombed, and reanimated, and he bounced my man with Karakas, which cleared the way for me to reanimate and swing in for 7 on my turn, then find the kill. Boarded in a couple S&T, an Emrakul, a bounce, for a Chrome Mox, a Careful Study, a Goryo's Vengeance, and a Cabal Ritual. Next game he started with a Relic on turn 1 but couldn't find lands. I set up for a S&T on turn 3ish and won from there. I feel bad that he got so unlucky with his draws, but not playing Brainstorm is a huge handicap.
    1-0

    Round 2 - I played against a friend I lent the GP Ghent winning storm list to for his first legacy tournament. Game 1 I reanimated and drew 21 on turn 1, but couldn't find Tendrils. I did it again next turn, still couldn't find Tendrils. Killed him next turn. Duressing helped prevent him from going off. Game 2 he was able to Duress away my Entomb from my stacked t1 hand, then went off the next turn. Game 3 we had a grindy Duress-fest with him going down to like 15 from fetches and Thoughtseizes. I thought that I could kill him with a natural Tendrils, but miscounted and wasted a bunch of cards. He was able to go off a few turns later while I was Brainstorm-locked. He ended up chopping t4 as well :)
    1-1

    Round 3 - basically a bye. He was playing unsleeved cat tribal, and I crushed him 2-0.
    2-1

    Round 4 - ID

    Quarters - Dredge. Unlike most Dredgers, this guy actually knew how to play the deck, so there were some interesting games.
    Game 1 I attempted to find an Entomb for a t1 with a Brainstorm, missed, but played a Petal and Duress to take his Faithless Looting, leaving him LED, some lands, and some dredgers. He ripped a faithless looting and got his dredge going, but his Cabal Therapy whiffed (for some reason, Dredge players always name Dark Ritual, so I had hidden one on top). I Pondered into an Entomb and killed him from there. Boarded in 2 Extirpate and an Echoing Truth for Duresses. He had some bad dredges and I was able to Extirpate his Narcs and saw he boarded out his Ichorids. I wasn't doing a whole lot though, so he dredged and played Thug and was able to strip my hand and win. Game 3 I played a fetch, took it back, played Petal, Brainstorm in an attempt to shuffle away the 2 extra lands I had and try to speed up (I didn't need the Petal since I couldn't go off that turn). Found the business, but didn't have the Dark Rit to go off that turn, so I was on the EOT Entomb plan. He made the interesting play of land, ship. I reanimated, battled, and started to go off, but he was definitely playing like he had something. I decided he was bluffing and just went for it. After the match, he explained that he thought my hand was pretty bad because of the Lotus Petal play, so he had time to represent a bluff, despite having plenty of dredge action in hand. We decided that that he should have just tried to further his gameplan, especially since I usually don't respect bluffs (and most times, they don't have it!).

    We chopped top 4. Again, I played against no Force of Wills and had fairly reasonable luck, but this deck is definitely one that crushes non-U decks into the ground. Even fast combo like Dredge is favorable because you're just as fast and have sideboard disruption.
    Sounds like the deck is going well for you! We have a local event tomorrow, but I don't think I'm going to be able to make it this weekend, unfortunately. However, I have a some maindeck as well as sideboard modifications that I think shore up some weaknesses to test out. Hopefully I can get some testing in with folks here soon, and I'll post some findings.

    Also have been playing around with a 3 color build, a little more along the lines of TES with Griselbrand with a wishboard. Haven't gotten a lot of games with it yet, but it certainly has the ability to protect itself a lot better than the 2 color build.

    /edit also, as far as playing against blue decks go, it's not as hard as you think. you have a good amount of discard coupled with a lot of redundancy, which spells big trouble for decks packing force of will. it's quite easy to play around daze with lotus petals (and likewise spell pierce, but that can be a bit tougher at times), so you end up bleeding out their hands pretty fast. the challenge you get is if you run into a blue deck that can apply pressure fast - i'm kinda worried about the resurgence of merfolk because of this in particular, although i haven't actually tested it yet. been traveling in asia for the past few weeks, so i haven't touched my cards.
    Last edited by .dk; 07-27-2012 at 02:36 PM. Reason: moar content!
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  13. #53
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    Also have been playing around with a 3 color build, a little more along the lines of TES with Griselbrand with a wishboard. Haven't gotten a lot of games with it yet, but it certainly has the ability to protect itself a lot better than the 2 color build.
    Are you talking about playing a bunch of Silences? I'd like to see what you've come up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    it's quite easy to play around daze with lotus petals (and likewise spell pierce, but that can be a bit tougher at times), so you end up bleeding out their hands pretty fast. the challenge you get is if you run into a blue deck that can apply pressure fast - i'm kinda worried about the resurgence of merfolk because of this in particular, although i haven't actually tested it yet.
    That's my intuition, I'd just like to test it. I know in Count Chocula, you were very good against grindy control decks like Stoneblade, but discard hurt because you were trying to assemble a 2-card combo in-hand. Thresh and Merfolk were pretty easy in my experience because you could play around taxes so easily - you just have to duress the one hard counter out of their hand. TinFins has more redundancy so that helps there. I'm just not sure if speed offsets the weakness to grave hate.

  14. #54
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Are you talking about playing a bunch of Silences? I'd like to see what you've come up with.
    Actually, I haven't tried 4 colors yet, but it could support it. Still relying on discard and redundancy as protection. I was feeling like I would need to cut reanimation effects for Chant/Silence, and that just doesn't seem very great in a deck without infernal tutor, but I could be wrong. Maybe cutting some is ok. The changes I've been thinking about are basically taking the TES manabase as is (4 Gemstone mine, 2 city of brass, fetches, USeas, and Volcanics), and adding red in the form of:

    1. Burning Wish (which is specifically the reason I was testing this - sideboarding potentially dilutes the maindeck so much that it becomes ineffective, however a wishboard fixes that problem as well as providing answers to graveyard and storm hate)
    2. Faithless Looting (better than Careful Study)
    3. Rite of Flame (although this may not be necessary, not enough testing yet)

    List currently looks like this, but I'm guessing needs some work still:

    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 City of Brass
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Burning Wish
    3 Faithless Looting
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Goryo's vengeance
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    Sideboard:

    1 Grapeshot
    1 Shattering Spree
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Turbulent Dreams
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Deathmark
    1 Reanimate
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Massacre Wurm

    It even gives you access to Show and Tell maindeck (via wish) if you really want it. As is though, this may be too protection light maindeck. It's possible that the deck doesn't want a wincon main, and the Tendrils can be replaced with another Cabal Therapy. Also - Turbulent Dreams seems like an amazing bounce spell for this deck.

    Disclaimer on all of this: I haven't yet played a single game in this config, so I have no idea if it is good at all, or just terrible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  15. #55

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I am following this thread for a while now since I play regular reanimator and this seems like a fun deck to build.

    Just to throw an idea into the discussion: I've recently acquired doomsdays so I was wondering, why not go for the doomsday approach in de tha sideboard?

    I was thinking of something along these lines:

    4 griselbrand
    3 tendrils of agony
    3 goryos vengeance
    4 shallow grave

    4 lotus petal
    4 dark ritual
    2 chrome mox

    4 brainstorm
    3 ponder
    2 lim-dls vault
    4 careful study
    4 entomb

    4 force of will

    4 polluted delta
    2 bloodstained mire
    2 scalding tarn
    2 island
    3 swamp
    2 underground sea

    Sideboard:
    4 doomsday
    1 emrakul, the aeons torn
    1 shelldock isle
    1 ideas unbound
    3 show and tell
    1 wipe away*
    2 echoing truth*
    1 slaughter pact*
    1 amulet of vigor

    The 3 * are actually the cards that I'm not too sure about. Maybe add some discard?

    So the general idea is to board out most of your reanimator strategy and go for a doomsday package and show and tell. I'm also not too sure about 3 show and tells. Maybe I'll add a 4th.

    Your pile from doomsday should generally consist of a combination of the following cards depending on your hand:

    Amulet of vigor
    Ideas unbound
    Shelldock isle
    Lotus petal
    Emrakul
    Doomsday

    You should nearly always put a doomsday on the bottom. That way (as long as you are on 1+ life) you can avoid being decked and reset the pile if necessary.

    What do you guys think?

  16. #56
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I like the idea of transforming to a wincon from a totally different angle like doomsday, however i'm not sure if shelldock/emrakul is where you want to be. There are a lot of wastelands running around out there, which means you must land amulet of vigor to be able to win. potentially very challenging...

    an alternative doomsday wincon could be laboratory maniac - maybe not using the mental note/unearth combo (since then you're still relying on the graveyard), but you potentially have enough rituals and free mana to actually hard cast Lab Maniac fairly easily. Something to think about anyway.

    Oh, and 1 piece of feedback on your maindeck - I too have moved to using 2 Lim-Dul's Vaults main - I feel that this change fixes a good bit of the variance and fizzling that I've experienced at times. However, I think you likely only need 2 Tendrils maindeck in this case (at least based on the testing that I've done). I'm currently running 2 LDV, 2 Tendrils, 4 Ponder, 3 Chrome Mox, 3 Careful Study. I can certainly see a case being made for keeping 4 careful studies maindeck though.
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    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  17. #57

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    I like the idea of transforming to a wincon from a totally different angle like doomsday, however i'm not sure if shelldock/emrakul is where you want to be. There are a lot of wastelands running around out there, which means you must land amulet of vigor to be able to win. potentially very challenging...

    an alternative doomsday wincon could be laboratory maniac - maybe not using the mental note/unearth combo (since then you're still relying on the graveyard), but you potentially have enough rituals and free mana to actually hard cast Lab Maniac fairly easily. Something to think about anyway.

    Oh, and 1 piece of feedback on your maindeck - I too have moved to using 2 Lim-Dul's Vaults main - I feel that this change fixes a good bit of the variance and fizzling that I've experienced at times. However, I think you likely only need 2 Tendrils maindeck in this case (at least based on the testing that I've done). I'm currently running 2 LDV, 2 Tendrils, 4 Ponder, 3 Chrome Mox, 3 Careful Study. I can certainly see a case being made for keeping 4 careful studies maindeck though.
    Like I said if you put another doomsday on the bottom and if you have more than 1 life you can just remake the pile and try again, which is one of the major strenghts of doomsday. You could also go for the regular tendrils doomsday combo but I don't own any LEDs. Hence the emrakul plan.

    I could always put 1-2 more amulets in the side to draw them earlier in the game. Also laboratory maniac can just be put in as a 1-off anyways, so that if your shelldock/emrakul fails due to wasteland you just draw into him as the last card in your library.

    Also with show and tell it happens quite often that you do the griselbrand trick, and then doomsday with enough petals and moxen to cast ideas unbound and double ritual into tendrils.
    Last edited by Johanovich; 07-29-2012 at 06:42 PM.

  18. #58
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    The Doomsday plan is a good suggestion! I'm trying to figure out what problems it addresses, though. Postboard, the deck is weak to grave hate + counterspells or grave hate + pressure, with Thresh and Maverick being the exemplars. Both of them pack all the Wastelands and either Stifle or Karakas, which makes me not so happy about the Shelldock plan. The Lab Man plan seems good against Maverick, but Thresh is going to leave in its Bolts. I'm really not sold on a Tendrils pile without siding in LEDs (assuming you can figure out a pile that has a bounce spell for troublesome things like Teeg or Thalia). So is the DDFT transform actually that much better than just fighting through hate? In its favor, I guess it gets around Counterbalance pretty well.

    What if we side into some sort of Omniscience combo? Maybe something like this?

    // Maindeck
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    3 Careful Study
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance

    4 Burning Wish

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Chrome Mox

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Duress
    2 Thoughtseize

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    // Sideboard
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Omniscience
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Petals of Insight
    1 Exhume
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Echoing Truth

    That's really jamming the sideboard tight - not too much room to address troublesome permanents like Thalia. If you hadn't noticed, I'm scared to death of her. But it does transform the deck into something that's not really weak to the same things. Advantages:
    • It can play around Thalia better (because Omniscience makes things free, so you have to pay +1 for S&T, +1 for Burning Wish, and +1 for Living Wish, all of which can be on separate turns.
    • It can play around Humility with the Petals kill.
    • It can play around Canonist with S&T -> Emrakul or S&T -> Omniscience -> Emrakul.
    • It can play around maindeck grave hate.

    Disadvantages:
    • Going off is probably 20% harder (have to find Tendrils or make red)
    • Manabase is much more susceptible to Wasteland


    I'd like to find room for a Karakas, but not sure what to cut.
    Thoughts?

    edit:
    Changed decklist. I don't like Living Wish without a 3rd Emrakul and a Karakas.
    second edit:
    After testing some last night, changed the sideboard and added more combo pieces to the maindeck. The deck felt business-light against a counterspell-heavy deck, and the maindeck Tendrils and Emrakul were bad. The sideboard seems unrefined, but the Omniscience plan is insane against Maverick. They don't know which plan I'm on (since I have to leave in like 3 ins and 3 outs).
    Last edited by phazonmutant; 07-31-2012 at 11:39 AM.

  19. #59
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    What if we side into some sort of Omniscience combo? Maybe something like this?

    // Maindeck
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    3 Careful Study
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance

    4 Burning Wish

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Chrome Mox

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Duress
    2 Thoughtseize

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    // Sideboard
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Omniscience
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Petals of Insight
    1 Exhume
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Echoing Truth

    That's really jamming the sideboard tight - not too much room to address troublesome permanents like Thalia. If you hadn't noticed, I'm scared to death of her. But it does transform the deck into something that's not really weak to the same things. Advantages:
    • It can play around Thalia better (because Omniscience makes things free, so you have to pay +1 for S&T, +1 for Burning Wish, and +1 for Living Wish, all of which can be on separate turns.
    • It can play around Humility with the Petals kill.
    • It can play around Canonist with S&T -> Emrakul or S&T -> Omniscience -> Emrakul.
    • It can play around maindeck grave hate.

    Disadvantages:
    • Going off is probably 20% harder (have to find Tendrils or make red)
    • Manabase is much more susceptible to Wasteland


    I'd like to find room for a Karakas, but not sure what to cut.
    Thoughts?

    edit:
    Changed decklist. I don't like Living Wish without a 3rd Emrakul and a Karakas.
    second edit:
    After testing some last night, changed the sideboard and added more combo pieces to the maindeck. The deck felt business-light against a counterspell-heavy deck, and the maindeck Tendrils and Emrakul were bad. The sideboard seems unrefined, but the Omniscience plan is insane against Maverick. They don't know which plan I'm on (since I have to leave in like 3 ins and 3 outs).
    Awesome! I love it! I was actually thinking about Omniscience in the board along with SnT the other day as well - do you really need 2 Emrakuls to go along with that as well though? Seems good that you have another SnT target (bringing the total to 10), but I just wasn't sure. Also - what do you plan to board out to bring in 4 SnT, 4 Omniscience, and 2 Emrakul?

    Also, have you considered Turbulent Dreams as bounce in the board? It seems potentially awesome with Griselbrand, and can be fetched with Burning Wish.

    And what would you think about replacing the 2 Thoughtseize maindeck with 2 Lim-Dul's Vault? That would fix the not being able to find Tendrils problem.

    One last question - is red rare enough in your build that you can't replace Careful Study with Faithless Looting? Maybe you could run some rainbow lands to fix that and the red for Burning Wish? (maybe a manabase closer to the one I posted a few posts up).

    Seems good overall though - and I really like the Omniscience plan vs. Maverick. I need to get to testing, as SCG Open Denver is right around the corner!
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    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  20. #60
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    Awesome! I love it! I was actually thinking about Omniscience in the board along with SnT the other day as well - do you really need 2 Emrakuls to go along with that as well though? [...] Also - what do you plan to board out to bring in 4 SnT, 4 Omniscience, and 2 Emrakul?
    Emrakul's insane with Omniscience and I was bringing in a couple without the transformative board to beat Surgical, but you could be right. My roommate agrees with you, for the record. I tested against Maverick and UW Miracles last night. Against the former, +3 S&T (one sb to Wish for), +2 Emrakul, +4 Omniscience, +1 Echoing Truth; -4 Duress, -2 Careful Study, -1 Entomb, -3 Goryo's Vengeance. Against Miracles, I didn't test postboard, but it felt like the only way I was winning was to kill him t1-2. Maybe bring in a few S&T and a couple Omniscience to mise? Not sure how to make that matchup good.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    Also, have you considered Turbulent Dreams as bounce in the board? It seems potentially awesome with Griselbrand, and can be fetched with Burning Wish.
    It's a cool card, definitely deserves some testing. I'm nervous about UU though - leaves us vulnerable to Wasteland and it's really slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    And what would you think about replacing the 2 Thoughtseize maindeck with 2 Lim-Dul's Vault? That would fix the not being able to find Tendrils problem.
    The Omniscience plan really needs the protection against counterspell decks and with 4 Burning Wish, finding Tendrils isn't really a problem. I love Lim-Dul's Vault, but I think it competes with Burning Wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    One last question - is red rare enough in your build that you can't replace Careful Study with Faithless Looting? Maybe you could run some rainbow lands to fix that and the red for Burning Wish? (maybe a manabase closer to the one I posted a few posts up).
    If you've ever played Dredge or TES, you'll know how awful the City / Gemstone Mine manabase is. It makes Brainstorm and Ponder weaker, makes resolving S&T postboard much harder, and one of the few ways Maverick can beat TES is Wasting their t1 land they used to Ponder or whatever. I hate getting my lands Wasted, so stretching to splash red already makes me nervous. Looting isn't actually much better than Study - you rarely want to be slow enough that you have time to flash it back, especially considering we're only running 14 lands - and changing the manabase to be solidly 3 colors means we'd have to cut out all the basics.

    I'm gonna try out this build at legacy tomorrow. Usually transformative sideboards are really bad, but this one might actually attack from a different enough angle that it's fine. The only bad matchup seems to be UW Miracles. The Reid Duke version with Counterbalance main actually scares me less than the older stack-control version because both of our plans are fairly vulnerable on the stack, whereas Counterbalance is fine but not amazing against S&T.

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