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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #61
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    You bring up some good points with regards to the manabase for sure. Although, as I've been goldfishing, I'm not sure that this deck can support a third color without rainbow lands. One of the selling points (for me anyway) was the incredible speed and consistency of the deck. I've found (goldfishing) that I was struggling to access the colors of mana I needed to consistently win T2/T3. I found myself casting Burning Wish, and then not having the right mana left to be able to win, whereas rainbow lands would have made that burden a bit easier. I do hear what you're saying with regards to them making Brainstorm and Ponder much worse, however. Maybe 3 colors just isn't the right way to go...

    Maybe we can stick with a SnT based transformational board, but don't use a Wishboard, and keep the deck UB. Maybe something like this:


    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Island
    2 Swamp
    3 Careful Study
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Duress
    2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
    SB: 4 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
    SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
    SB: 1 Echoing Truth
    SB: 2 Thoughtseize
    SB: 4 Omniscience
    SB: 1 Petals of Insight


    This can easily switch from a reanimation plan to a straight SnT plan and swap out a full 15 cards. It's not quite as versatile as the URB version that you posted, however I think it may be a bit more consistent and fizzle a bit less. Definitely more vulnerable to countermagic, but hopefully there is enough discard and mana sources to play around Daze/Pierce.

    Although I'm not totally sure on the sideboard, and how good that plan would be as is - haven't been able to play games yet. It's also possible that the Virtue's Ruin wants to be Massacre Wurm as well, but I'm not sure. I should be able to get some testing in tomorrow evening though, so I'll try to post what I find (if anything of note).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  2. #62
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    In testing I had no problem with the red for Burning Wish, but I didn't play a whole lot of games. You definitely could be right that it's better to be 2 colors.

    Lim-Dul's Vault would be an interesting direction to take the deck. I liked it in Chocula, but with the Omniscience board, you don't get to draw the card immediately to kill...maybe Top would be good? I like that it allows you to find Emrakul without Living Wish. BTW, Chain is really bad with Omniscience.

    I played the list I posted in this weeks tournament, but didn't do well at all. A good bit of it was that I was exhausted, but I also ran into tough matchups. Round 1 was Merfolk. He had a couple of Cursecatchers and I wasn't able to find the lands to play around them before he drew some lords and Force. Second game he found 3 grave hate spells (ding!), but I couldn't resolve a S&T until I was already at 7 and he killed me with his islandwalking swingback. Round 2 played against Delver and mulled to 6 with no cantrips and then drew 8 lands, then game 2 had an opener with t1 man off Petals but he Forced the Shallow Grave and I didn't draw any lands. Round 3 played against Tezzeret prison and won through 3-sphere after he 15'd himself with lands, then Showed in Omniscience and won when I drew Emrakul (conveniently sidestepping Chalice on 0, 1, 2, and 3sphere). Dropped to beer.

    Not sure how I feel about the Omniscience board. It's fairly bad against taxing counterspells. I really wanted better access to Emrakul - there were a couple of times where I needed to cast him to win and Griselbrand just wasn't cutting it. I definitely need to test more though.

  3. #63
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    In testing I had no problem with the red for Burning Wish, but I didn't play a whole lot of games. You definitely could be right that it's better to be 2 colors.

    Lim-Dul's Vault would be an interesting direction to take the deck. I liked it in Chocula, but with the Omniscience board, you don't get to draw the card immediately to kill...maybe Top would be good? I like that it allows you to find Emrakul without Living Wish. BTW, Chain is really bad with Omniscience.

    I played the list I posted in this weeks tournament, but didn't do well at all. A good bit of it was that I was exhausted, but I also ran into tough matchups. Round 1 was Merfolk. He had a couple of Cursecatchers and I wasn't able to find the lands to play around them before he drew some lords and Force. Second game he found 3 grave hate spells (ding!), but I couldn't resolve a S&T until I was already at 7 and he killed me with his islandwalking swingback. Round 2 played against Delver and mulled to 6 with no cantrips and then drew 8 lands, then game 2 had an opener with t1 man off Petals but he Forced the Shallow Grave and I didn't draw any lands. Round 3 played against Tezzeret prison and won through 3-sphere after he 15'd himself with lands, then Showed in Omniscience and won when I drew Emrakul (conveniently sidestepping Chalice on 0, 1, 2, and 3sphere). Dropped to beer.

    Not sure how I feel about the Omniscience board. It's fairly bad against taxing counterspells. I really wanted better access to Emrakul - there were a couple of times where I needed to cast him to win and Griselbrand just wasn't cutting it. I definitely need to test more though.

    I've pretty much had 2x Lim Dul's Vault maindeck since right after Atlanta. It fixes a LOT of the fizzling problems that this deck suffers from at times. They still seem fine with Omniscience though, given the amount of filter you run in Brainstorm, Ponder, and Careful study that you can also cast for free.

    Agreed on Chain, but I'm not sure if I would board in the Omniscience package against counter heavy decks. It seems like it might be better to board in the bounce and discard to stick with the maindeck plan, hence the Chains in the board. Maindeck is very resilient to countermagic due to discard and redundancy already, so the problem that you're really fighting in that case is graveyard hate. So... you can use bounce and discard to hopefully deal with that, and use the same plan that you would maindeck.

    Merfolk does seem like a bitch of a matchup though... pressure + counters is pretty rough for this deck (as it is with most decks, really).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  4. #64
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Well, the local Legacy event didn't fire over the weekend, but I've gotten a fair bit of testing in against some blue decks. That said, I haven't been able to test a wide variety of sideboard plans yet. I believe I should be able to get some good games in this week, however.

    However, the more I'm running the updated maindeck with the Ad Naus board + 3 bounce spells, the more I'm liking it again. It actually doesn't feel THAT bad against decks that bring in a bunch of graveyard/griselbrand hate. I haven't tested it against much else other than RUG and Next Level Thresh, but NLT at least packs a good bit of grave hate in it that they seem to always bring in game 2. So even though it turns into mediocre ANT, your opponent's deck can be quite diluted with grave hate at the same time. I was having a bit of a problem with Red Elemental Blast countering my cantrips all over the place though...

    Anyway, I think I have a few different plans to test out this week, so I think I should be able to get some testing results with at least a few of them:

    1. ANT transformation (already a lot of data)
    2. Omniscience Transformation
    3. Reactive board with bounce, and potentially City of Solitude and/or Pull from Eternity
    4. Running a TES like maindeck with Silence + Burning Wish and a wishboard.

    We'll see, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  5. #65
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    How is the ANT board any good at all? You still get hit by Surgical somewhat and Thalia and Canonist hurt so much more than the reanimation plan. So you're switching to ANT against non-W decks? Or you're hoping to find your bounce? And is turning into a bad ANT list actually good against the difficult Thresh matchup?

    I'm not saying Omniscience solves these problems, just that it's a transformative plan that actually attacks from a different angle as the maindeck. I think I'm going to test out a list with Top and Lim-Dul's Vault this afternoon. Not sure about the sideboard.

  6. #66
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @phazonmuant

    Well, the ANT plan is be no means optimal, but in a field where no one is really expecting your G1, or an ANT transformation, it can work fairly well. It can still T1/T2 very easily, and boarding in 3 bounce spells is has usually been enough to deal with Maverick. I won't say it's great, but it's definitely been doable provided that you're mulligans are ok. Sometimes you just lose, but that's the nature of the deck.

    Another possibility for the sideboard could be something like this:

    4 Show and Tell
    4 Cabal Ritual
    2 Massacre Wurm
    3 Chain of Vapor (or whatever the right bounce is)
    2 Thoughtseize

    Bring in more discard to protect Show and Tell, and more rituals to hardcast Griselbrand as a backup. Massacre Wurm also seems pretty insane against Maverick (and even RUG) and is can also be hardcast. Worst case, do your best to clear their board and just swing!

    I tried out a 4 color build with rainbow lands and Silences (basically making it TES) - and it actually felt amazing! Until I ran into wasteland. :( Way too vulnerable there (as you said). So, I ended up back at something similar to the 3 color build you posted a bit ago. I think it needed a bit more mana sources and fixing, so I ended up with this list maindeck:

    1 Badlands
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Duress
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Faithless Looting

    With 3 colors, I'm liking 15 lands a bit more than 14. I also added back in the 3rd Chrome Mox as I found imprinting Faithless Looting on Chrome Mox fixed most of the problems I was having making red mana for Burning Wish. I don't think I've yet flashed back faithless looting though - it's main purpose seems to be creating a red source of mana. :)

    As far as what the actual board goes... that's a rough one. I like the Omniscience plan you originally posted, although like I said before, I don't think you need the Emrakul's there with the Omniscience win-con. So maybe something like:

    4 Show and Tell
    4 Omniscience
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Exhume
    1 Meltdown
    1 Petals of Insight
    3 Chain of Vapor

    I wish I could fit a Deathmark in there as well, but I don't really see how. I suppose you could run that instead of Meltdown and change the bounce to Echoing Truth/Wipe Away or something.

    Another option for this would be a transformation involving Through the Breach:

    4 Through the Breach
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Cabal Ritual
    1 Show and Tell
    1 Exhume
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Meltdown
    1 Thoughtseize

    Plenty of play with the wishboard and maintains Griselbrand's potency with haste postboard. A bit slower (hence the Cabal rituals), but can totally dodge grave hate while still maintaining a very similar game plan.

    Appreciate the work and thoughts you've put in thus far. Great ideas - I think we can make it work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  7. #67
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Played the Burning Wish / Omniscience board in a small tournament again, and it's truly awful. Like you said, it's way harder to actually combo off g1 (I lost against Death and Taxes! Fucking Thalia...) and the Omniscience plan is just too slow and still loses to every W aggro deck. Burning Wish is just so slow and takes up a ton of board slots. A maindeck Tendrils is without a doubt necessary.

    I can buy that ANT is good if people are unprepared, but it takes up so many slots... That other board you posted with Wurm is sweet though!

    Having 15 lands and the Chrome Mox make a lot of sense in a solidly 3-color version. The list you posted seems pretty ideal if you decide to go with Burning Wish (although I would consider a basic mountain if you have Faithless Looting).

    Dude! Through the Breach! That's an awesome idea! I'd have to test whether that or Sneak Attack is better, but that's a cool new angle to take the deck. So Sneak Attack is better in that it allows you to leave a massive threat on-board and play around Daze and Thalia better, but you lose instant speed (which can be pretty important for counterspells and Karakas) and it's harder to make double red. I especially like the sideboard Cabal Rituals - outside the box thinking!

    I don't think I'm going to be able to any legacy tournaments in the next few weeks, but when I get a chance to test I'll post updates. Agreed that this deck seems sweet and has a lot of potential.

  8. #68

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Went to a local tourney and went 3-1 with my own twist on the deck.



    3 City of Brass
    2 Gemstone Mine
    1 Island
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea

    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Children of Korlis
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    3 Shallow Grave
    1 Duress
    3 Thoughsieze
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Faithless Looting

    SB:
    4 Show and Tell
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Sneak Attack
    2 Ancient Tomb
    1 City of Traitors

    Round 1 Vs Maverick (Seemed to be more budget Maverick, but I didnt see much of his deck)

    G1 I combo out turn 2
    G2 I just make land drops and play sneak attack off a ritual and smash with Emrakul, he scoops.

    Neither game was close.

    Round 2 Vs Maverick (non-budget w/ wasteland)

    G1 I combo with a Thalia in play, cant kill with tendrils but hasty grisel after hasty grisel gets there (consecutive turns) followed by a mini tendrils. Close game.

    G2 Wasn't close, he brought in relics and surgicals but they do anything vs sneak attack.


    Round 3 Vs BW Dead Guy (Heavy discard with SFM, Bob, and wasteland)

    G1 He strips my hand to a million pieces. I manage to hold on recurring a Korlis with Shallow grave for a few turns but I whiff on my cantrips when I have to go off.

    G2 I board into the sneak plan and Show n Tell turn 1 Emrakul. GG

    G3 I stick to the Sneak Show plan hoping he brings in grave hate. He attcks my hand and plays an early bob. He makes the mistake on turn 4 or 5? of playing a sword of fire and ice instead Hymning me.(I knew he had it off a revealed Bob trigger) The next turn when he does, I have a brainstorm to hide my gas. I play show and tell and put in Grisel, but he puts in Mirran Crusader with a sword of fire and ice already in play. I think I'm at 11 and I'm dead if I don't draw into more cards and Show N tell into Emmy to block the crusader. Luckily I had the mana and cards to do it off of the new 7 and my existing hand. He had to rip Karakas off the top and doesn't. Very interesting game.


    Round 4 Finals Vs RUG (No Stifle but had wastelands)

    G1 I combo out turn 3 playing around daze and get a Grisel in play. I attack, go to 25, and then proceed to draw my deck and win. 21 cards deep I don't draw a korlis or a tendrils. I cantrip with a ponder, no dice... shuffle. Brainstorm... no dice. I had looked through 28 cards, looking for one of the 3 children or one of the two tendrils. Not one of the 5 cards showed up. My first fizzle, funny I'd always thought I'd win with 25 cards in hand in legacy with a storm deck. =) I set up a to Grisel reanimate next turn and I getspell snared, and died shortly after. Sad Game.

    G2 I board into the Sneak plan and get there after he counters my first show n tell. He had ooze and graffdiggers cage in play. =)

    G3 I can't decide which way to go. RUG can be so fast (with the right hand and disruption) I decide to go with the graveyard reanimate plan. Game goes on for awhile and I get to the point where I know his hand: Ooze, goyf, force, unknown. In play he has tormod's crypt, delver and an untapped island

    I untap with 3 lands and play a land. I already have a Grisel in the yard. I know I have the win. I play a land, tap it and cast dark rit. with the rit mana I cast shallow grave. He responds by activating crypt. Here is where I mess up. I say "ok" instead I meant to cast goryo's vengeance in response. He then would have to force of will, and I could have let the force and the crypt resolve only to then cast entomb for Grisel. (Since shallow grave doesnt target) Instead my yard goes to exile and I cast entomb which of course he forces and I stare at my Goryo's in hand. I tell him GG and ask if i can see if I would have won (I can only activate Grisel once) He says sure and of course I can combo out off the first 7 new cards I see.


    Thoughts after the games:
    I like the deck but the mana base might need adjustment, I am unsure. Wasteland is of course tough. I think some, if not all of the sideboard lands should become duresses, again I am unsure. I was always happy to see them and mana usually wasnt a problem between the rits, moxen, and petals.

  9. #69
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Was Sneak Attack better for you than Through the Breach? Was Children actually better than just playing a more consistant mana base and more Tendrils and/or Burning Wishes?

  10. #70
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    So, I took a UBr build to SCG Denver, with overall disappointing results. The meta (at least what I played) was very hostile to storm combo, making me really work for most of my wins. On top of that, I didn't feel like I played that great either... Here is the list that I ran:


    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Duress
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Faithless Looting
    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Burning Wish
    1 Tendrils of Agony


    Sideboard:


    4 Show and Tell
    3 Chain of Vapor
    3 Dread of Night
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Meltdown
    1 Infest
    1 Deathmark
    1 Exhume


    The list was obviously set up to beat Maverick (which I've had problems with in the past - re: my GP Atlanta experience). Never played it though. :(
    anyway, a quick breakdown of the day (my notes aren't great):

    Round 1: Dredge
    I win the die roll (one of the few times on the day)
    G1: I drop USea and ponder, finding what I need to go off the next turn. He drops Gemstone Mine and careful studies, dropping a dredger. Perfect! Passes back to me, and I do my thing on T2 and Tendrils him out.
    G2: I keep the nuts, he drops Leyline T0, does something irrelevant and pass. I topdeck Chain of Vapor (because I'm really good I guess), bounce Leyline and win.

    Seems like a great start to the day! Except that was the only easy match all day....

    1-0

    Round 2: Esperblade
    He wins the die roll, I think. I die to infinite counters and getting Jaced out in both games, I think. Neat. I thought this was a better matchup, as most of the Esperblade lists I've seen recently have cut a lot of counters. He didn't really cast discard on me either game, and just kept very counter heavy hands. Not sure if it was a different build, but it certainly was a rough matchup.

    1-1

    Round 3: UW Counterbalance
    Nightmare matchup, and he was a very good player. In fact, he went on to win the event. I win game 1 on the back of tendrils. Games 2 and 3 I can't play out of counter/top lock...

    1-2

    Round 4: UW Counterbalance
    Awesome! 2 in a row! I knew what he was on, as he was testing against one of my friends the previous evening. When he sat down I think my shoulders visibly slumped. I think I get there game 1, and die to countertop lock. Game 3 he gets countertop online, but I use my bounce to manipulate Top to the top of his library at times to keep him from manipulating. Eventually get what I need when he is tapped out, forced to flip top to counter a ritual, and combo with lotus petals and chrome moxes. barely! Turns out, he had drawn every match before this one...

    2-2

    Round 5: Omniscience
    This was a fun match. Game 1, he actually managed to Show and Tell in Omniscience on his T3, and bricked on his brainstorm for finding business. He dropped... another Omniscience and passed, and I proceeded to combo out on my T3. Game 2, he casts Show and Tell at a really awkward time... I have no permanents in hand. He drops Omniscience, then burning wish for Petals of Insight and Grapeshots me to death. Game 3 was pretty hilarious - I made an awful mistake but managed to recover. I have a great hand with a Griselbrand, Faithless Looting, and a Reanimation Spell. I cast Looting on T1 into another Griselbrand, and keep 1 in hand in case he casts Show and Tell. I pass the turn and he drops Grafdigger's Cage - dang. I do nothing and pass, and then he casts Show and Tell... uh oh. He flips Emrakul, and I flip Griselbrand. I draw 14 on my turn, but can't find a win con, so I know I'll have to draw more. I attack with Griselbrand to gain 7 more life via Emrakul blocking, upon which I was planning on Reanimating him again to draw more cards. I tried this, and forgot that he had Grafdigger's Cage in play - whoops! So I Chain of Vapor-ed it, and reanimated him again, this time actually doing something. :) Drew my 7, and had enough to kill him from there, and enough mana still to get it done. Bad mistake, but draw 7's sure can make a lot of mana sometimes...

    3-2

    Round 6: Merfolk
    This was a very frustrating match. Game 1 I lose to Adept + Reejerey + Reejerey while he has 2 Force of Wills for everything I try to do. Yep - that will happen with Merfolk sometimes. The actually frustrating game was Game 2. He beats me down a bit with a grafdigger's cage out and a Griselbrand in my yard. I burning wish for meltdown and on the next turn I actually reanimate Griselbrand and swing, and am able to draw 14. I draw a bunch of rutals... and no burning wishes or Tendrils. I have plenty of mana, a Ponder, Brainstorm, and a Faithless looting, so I just dig.. and dig... and dig... Ponder -> shuffle, draw another looting. Brainstorm, nope, put back 2 lands, and crack a fetch in play. Faithless Looting -> nothing there (including no more cantrips). Only access to 1 more red, but don't have a choice at this point but to looting into either Tendrils, cantrip, or burning wish and a lotus petal... but nope. Nothing. Felt like I saw the whole deck, but couldn't find a 4 of in about 30 cards. Very frustrating.

    3-3

    Round 7: RUG
    This wasn't frustrating. It was painful. I kept decent hands with a combo piece and 1 or 2 cantrips, but they kept bricking. On top of that, I forgot to play around stifle and lost my land. So I did nothing for 2 games except cast a few cantrips (some of which were countered anyway). Fun times.

    3-4

    Round 8: Affinity
    This match should be easy... but like the rest of my day, it wasn't. Game 1 I combo out really early. Game 2, I have 1 Burning Wish, and some cantrips that proceed to do nothing. I wait until he has lethal on board for the next turn, and then burning wish for Meltdown and wipe his board clean, except for an Ancient Tomb and Glimmervoid. Should be game over, right? We then play draw-go for a long time... I make an awful mistake and miscount my mana by 1 when I try to hardcast a Griselbrand... and am forced to pass. And eventually I die. Really sad... Game 3 he mulled to 4 and I blew him out. I was playing really sloppy this round as I was pretty frustrated by this point, and had to apologize for playing so loosely at the end of the match (it ended up causing confusion in game states multiple times). Yep, I suck. :(

    4-4

    And then I magically get 56th which is good for $50. That felt very weird being rewarded for playing not very well, and having a pretty bad record. Oh well, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, right?


    Thoughts afterwards:

    My draw 14's, Ponders, and Brainstorms were awful all day long (see Merfolk Game2) - that's what you get playing combo sometimes though. Sometimes you have the luck, sometimes you don't. Also, if UW Counterbalance is a thing, this is probably not the deck to play. Or at least not this incarnation (or likely straight UB either). Some major modifications would need to be made in that case.

    After discussion with some friends, I think we need another angle of attack as a backup plan. Maybe a 1 of Emrakul maindeck would be sufficient, but maybe not. After you draw, if you brick, you usually have at least 1 entomb or looting, and another reanimation spell. Why not just reanimate Emrakul (since your spells are instant speed)? That may even be better than Tendrils-ing someone out anyway, and goes very well with the backup Show and Tell plan. Honestly not sure - seems like the fizzle rate would certainly be less. Another option (credit to Dela above) would be to include a 1 of Children of Korlis to entomb/reanimate/sacrifice after drawing a bunch to more or less draw the rest of your deck. That may be more cute than good though - not sure. Some other options might be a singleton Whirlpool Rider to act as a "Time Spiral" if you've fizzled. And one last option might be a singleton Conflagrate to Entomb for - this could potentially finish them off by itself given enough cards, or worst case at least clear the board of their creatures so you can live until next turn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  11. #71
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Good job on the top 64!
    Some of the problems you pointed out are why I'm setting the deck aside for now - it's really really difficult to play correctly, and you have to fight through a lot of hate to win even good matchups. It's definitely one of the most powerful decks in the format right now though.

    How was Burning Wish and Faithless Looting for you? Were there situations that actually came up where it was useful to find sideboard cards (apart from the sweet Meltdown vs. Affinity)? Did you get Wasted more than the UB version?

    I like the idea of adding 1 Emrakul maindeck. You're right it helps give you another plan of attack when you can't find Tendrils or enough mana. If we cut the Burning Wish in the main, that opens up room for a couple of Cabal Rituals in the sideboard to transform into more of a S&T gameplan. I'll try testing this list on Cockatrice today:
    // 14 lands
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    // spells
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Duress
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    2 Careful Study
    1 Lim-Dul's Vault
    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    3 Tendrils of Agony

    // Sideboard
    4 Show and Tell
    2 Cabal Ritual
    1 Slaughter Pact
    1 Virtue's Ruin
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Rebuild
    2 Through the Breach
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek

    The sideboard looks like it needs some serious refining and I may be super greedy for trimming Ponders and Careful Studies, but we'll see.

  12. #72

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm just about to start testing this deck, and so have no games under my belt yet, but the Emrakul idea kind of brought another to me.

    What if the deck dropped Tendrils for Emrakuls?

    edit;

    heres what ive been testing for the last couple of hours

    15 lands (4 Sea, 2 Island, 1 Swamp, 4 Deltas, 3 U-fetch, 1 B-fetch)

    4 Griselbrand
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Cabal Ritual
    3 Careful Study
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Entomb
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ponder
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Thoughtseize

    sideboard
    4 Dread of Night
    4 Show and Tell
    3 Emrakul
    3 Wipe Away
    1 City of Traitors

    My plan is to side out of the Tendrils combo against decks I can't bring in Wipe Away or Dread of Night against. I still think the storm plan is probably better as it completely gets around gy hate, and the deck really functions like a normal UB ANT deck, not a shitty storm deck.
    Last edited by Kanti; 09-05-2012 at 04:22 AM.

  13. #73
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @kanti
    I thought about something like that as well, and sticking to UB for a more stable manabase. However, at least in my testing, I wasn't finding that 4 SnT and some discard were enough to get through countermagic usually. thoughts?


    @phazonmuant
    I've kinda been digging on the Burning Wishes as more copies of SnT, really. I also like that if you transform into some sort of SnT / attacking plan Game2, Burning Wish gives you some game/answers if you go back to some Tendrils/Reanimate plan if you go to Game 3 by providing access to a few answers. Also, the more I tested Through the Breach, the more I disliked it. It's really bad against Maverick, as Thalia makes it cost 6! Sneak Attack is likely better because the activation isn't taxed, and it can beat Karakas as well. My original suggestion of Through the Breach was probably just a little too greedy. Speaking of greedy... if it were me, I would cut the LDV in your list for the 4th ponder to start testing, and play around with the final slot later. You may cut the 3rd Tendrils for LDV, but I don't really know for sure. Also, I feel like if you're running Red, you really want Faithless Looting rather than Careful Study to imprint on Chrome Mox...

    Anyway, here is the UBR list that I've been meaning to test, but haven't gotten around to it yet:


    1 Badlands
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Duress
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Faithless Looting

    Sideboard:

    3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Sneak Attack
    4 Show and Tell
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Meltdown
    1 Exhume
    1 Deathmark


    In this one, I cut 1 reanimation spell for Emrakul (making the sideboard plan a lot easier with less dead cards post-board - board out Shallow Graves, Goryo's Vengeance, and Entomb). Cutting a land could be right, but I haven't tested at all yet, so I'm not sure (and switching 1 land to a Mountain may also be right). This gives you can alternate line of play Game 1 by reanimating Emrakul, and then more or less a complete transformation into Sneak/Show for Game2, still maintaining a backup plan of tendrils-ing them out. It is possible that the Chrome Moxes should be Rite of Flame since Chrome Mox really sucks with the Sneak/Show plan... but again, more testing needed...
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  14. #74
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Today I decided to play my LED griselstorm deck at the Knightware store credit event. I haven't thought much about this deck recently since I've been focusing on Belcher. My maindeck looked similar to what I had tried out at Starcity open Las Vegas:

    4 griselbrand
    1 emrakul
    4 shallow grave
    4 entomb
    4 infernal tutor
    1 ill-gotten gains
    1 tendrils of agony
    3 careful study
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 dark ritual
    3 cabal ritual
    4 LED
    4 lotus petal
    2 chrome mox
    4 polluted delta
    3 flooded strand
    1 bloodstained mire
    3 underground sea
    1 swamp
    1 island

    I threw this sideboard together:

    3 noxious revival
    3 tombstalker
    2 virtues ruin
    4 thoughtseize
    1 chain of vapor
    1 echoing truth

    I know the maindeck has no disruption. It's the decks only weakness! And I know its a problem that must be addressed. I know not everyones a fan of the LEDs. But I honestly wouldn't play the deck without them.

    Round 1 I lose the roll. I play against a novice on belcher. He tries to make goblins but passed priority after burning wish. Then he read his LED. wooops. I learned the hard way too. I sculpt with a blue card and win on my second turn. Game 2 He plays out a belcher but cant pop it. I turn 2 him.

    Round 2 vs RUG Delver played by an expert. I lose the roll. Game one he blew me out with counterspells and beat me down with animals. Game 2 was more of a grind. I brought in noxious revivals and tombstalkers. He got a cage and I still tried to combo. After feeding my combo cards to his counterspells I go for Tombstalker. Of course he has a force left over pitching... Izzet charm! I didnt realize it was available for legacy play yet. So. Neither of us have a hand left and he has a flipped delver. I have a couple turns to stabilize but I'm not drawing live and I die. Somewhere in this round a stifle hit my fetch and messed me up.

    Round 3 vs RUG Delver I lose the roll. I don't remember game 1 but I died. Game 2 he mulligans a no lander with force and all blue cards. I board in thoughtseizes and tombstalkers for this match. I'm uncertain what's best so I'm trying different strategies. I turn one him and he doesn't have the force. Game 3 is a grind. He gets a dude down. We have a counter battle and neither of us have any cards in hand. I quickly die to a dude.

    Round 4 vs Dredge I win the roll and turn one him both games.

    Round 5 vs RUG Delver I lose the roll. These were by far the most fun and interesting games of the day. I don't remember too many details though. Game 1 I spend the first 2 turns sculpting my hand while he's summoning animals. I cast infernal tutor retain priority cast shallow grave retain priority pop LED discarding griselbrand. He has double force for all my action!! Ouch. I get attacked by animals and burned to death. Game 2 I don't remember the details but I won through some disruption. Game 3 I lost after a super epic super fun and interactive match. The details are lost and the tournament is over for me. My buddy has been running super hot with belcher lately and is in first place after smashing through the swiss. Top 8 agrees to split the prize instead of duking it out.

    I think my biggest problem today was with the dice. I would have been able to win a lot easier if i was winning the dice rolls. The deck was delivering good results and most of my losses were close games. Besides that it was a blast to play. I chose the deck because it's the most fun to play since the stakes are low today. But now I'm considering playing it at SCG open las angeles next week. Although I'm thinking about making some changes to the maindeck:

    - 4 ponder
    - 1 emrakul
    - 1 cabal ritual

    + 4 thoughtseize
    + 2 goryo's veangance

    Adding the thoughtseize to the maindeck will give me some more room in my sideboard. The tombstalkers were really good and surprised my opponents. I'm thinking about sideboarding into a creature deck that can randomly combo out sometimes. Add in delvers and some cliques. I want to try darkblast to deal with annoying creatures. I liked noxious revival and might try them again. I still feel kinda lost about the sideboard. There are so many possibilities and none of them seem perfect yet.

    When I came home I was looking through my black cards and I saw Necrotic Ooze and for the first time I realized it's awesome with griselbrand. I don't know if it could ever be right for this deck... but it's something to think about. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried it out.

  15. #75
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    Today I decided to play my LED griselstorm deck at the Knightware store credit event. I haven't thought much about this deck recently since I've been focusing on Belcher. My maindeck looked similar to what I had tried out at Starcity open Las Vegas:

    4 griselbrand
    1 emrakul
    4 shallow grave
    4 entomb
    4 infernal tutor
    1 ill-gotten gains
    1 tendrils of agony
    3 careful study
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 dark ritual
    3 cabal ritual
    4 LED
    4 lotus petal
    2 chrome mox
    4 polluted delta
    3 flooded strand
    1 bloodstained mire
    3 underground sea
    1 swamp
    1 island

    I threw this sideboard together:

    3 noxious revival
    3 tombstalker
    2 virtues ruin
    4 thoughtseize
    1 chain of vapor
    1 echoing truth

    I know the maindeck has no disruption. It's the decks only weakness! And I know its a problem that must be addressed. I know not everyones a fan of the LEDs. But I honestly wouldn't play the deck without them.

    Round 1 I lose the roll. I play against a novice on belcher. He tries to make goblins but passed priority after burning wish. Then he read his LED. wooops. I learned the hard way too. I sculpt with a blue card and win on my second turn. Game 2 He plays out a belcher but cant pop it. I turn 2 him.

    Round 2 vs RUG Delver played by an expert. I lose the roll. Game one he blew me out with counterspells and beat me down with animals. Game 2 was more of a grind. I brought in noxious revivals and tombstalkers. He got a cage and I still tried to combo. After feeding my combo cards to his counterspells I go for Tombstalker. Of course he has a force left over pitching... Izzet charm! I didnt realize it was available for legacy play yet. So. Neither of us have a hand left and he has a flipped delver. I have a couple turns to stabilize but I'm not drawing live and I die. Somewhere in this round a stifle hit my fetch and messed me up.

    Round 3 vs RUG Delver I lose the roll. I don't remember game 1 but I died. Game 2 he mulligans a no lander with force and all blue cards. I board in thoughtseizes and tombstalkers for this match. I'm uncertain what's best so I'm trying different strategies. I turn one him and he doesn't have the force. Game 3 is a grind. He gets a dude down. We have a counter battle and neither of us have any cards in hand. I quickly die to a dude.

    Round 4 vs Dredge I win the roll and turn one him both games.

    Round 5 vs RUG Delver I lose the roll. These were by far the most fun and interesting games of the day. I don't remember too many details though. Game 1 I spend the first 2 turns sculpting my hand while he's summoning animals. I cast infernal tutor retain priority cast shallow grave retain priority pop LED discarding griselbrand. He has double force for all my action!! Ouch. I get attacked by animals and burned to death. Game 2 I don't remember the details but I won through some disruption. Game 3 I lost after a super epic super fun and interactive match. The details are lost and the tournament is over for me. My buddy has been running super hot with belcher lately and is in first place after smashing through the swiss. Top 8 agrees to split the prize instead of duking it out.

    I think my biggest problem today was with the dice. I would have been able to win a lot easier if i was winning the dice rolls. The deck was delivering good results and most of my losses were close games. Besides that it was a blast to play. I chose the deck because it's the most fun to play since the stakes are low today. But now I'm considering playing it at SCG open las angeles next week. Although I'm thinking about making some changes to the maindeck:

    - 4 ponder
    - 1 emrakul
    - 1 cabal ritual

    + 4 thoughtseize
    + 2 goryo's veangance

    Adding the thoughtseize to the maindeck will give me some more room in my sideboard. The tombstalkers were really good and surprised my opponents. I'm thinking about sideboarding into a creature deck that can randomly combo out sometimes. Add in delvers and some cliques. I want to try darkblast to deal with annoying creatures. I liked noxious revival and might try them again. I still feel kinda lost about the sideboard. There are so many possibilities and none of them seem perfect yet.

    When I came home I was looking through my black cards and I saw Necrotic Ooze and for the first time I realized it's awesome with griselbrand. I don't know if it could ever be right for this deck... but it's something to think about. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried it out.
    Sounds like you had the problem that I was experiencing when testing LED versions. They seem to just be too all in and require too much space. If you're disrupted when you're going off with LED, then it's pretty much GG (at least in my experience - and yours in Round 5 it sounds like). It's certainly more explosive though! There is probably some version of this deck that wants it and can play enough disruption - just haven't found it yet. The problem is that the reanimation package just takes up so many slots alongside LED and IT! Hope you can figure it out, cause if you can, it sure seems likely to be the best version!

    I've thought about Necrotic Ooze as well - particularly including buried alive, phyrexian devourer, and triskelion. I SO wanted to make Ooze work with Griselbrand in the yard (beats Grafdiggers' Cage!) - but I think you're better off just winning with Devourer/Trike. Could be wrong though... If you go that route with Ooze getting Grizzlebee's activated ability from the yard, you may want to try a Scourge Familiar as well to be able to get critical mass of mana from all of the dead cards in your hand. Just a thought anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  16. #76
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    While it is "all in" with LEDs... I'm generally not discarding action when I go for the win with LED (just griselbrands). As you can see in game 1 round 5 LED actually helped me play through counter magic. He was tapped out and I even had a mana floating for daze. the only thing that could have stopped me was double force.. I mean, if he's got it he's got it. Combo is fragile to counter magic, I don't know how much resilience we can realistically be hoping for when we're trying to win with a reanimation spell. That said though... I'm trying out cutting the ponders for thoughtseizes. Hopefully that will help.

    As far as necrotic ooze goes... It got me thinking. There's some interesting directions to take it. filling up the graveyard can be easy in a deck with entombs, careful studys, faithles lootings, and LEDs. Turn one dark ritual thoughtseize entomb reanimate ooze. play n pop LED dumping griselbrand draw a ton of cards.... Just trying to brainstorm possibilities haha.

    As far as in this deck goes. It might be possible in the place of goryos.

    In any case I'm going to continue brewing and testing. If I'm feeling comfortable with it I'll bring it to SCG LA open series.

  17. #77
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I tested a version with LEDs and IF online and at a small tournament as well. As .dk said, you're way all-in. Say, you're playing a deck that tries to win t1-2, doesn't run protection, and expects to dump its hand? Sounds like Belcher, except you trade being better against Force for being vulnerable to commonly played hate.

    Versions with Duresses main and Show and Tell in the board have the advantage of having a passable to good matchup against counterspells, which is where I'd want to be in a large tournament.

  18. #78
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    I tested a version with LEDs and IF online and at a small tournament as well. As .dk said, you're way all-in. Say, you're playing a deck that tries to win t1-2, doesn't run protection, and expects to dump its hand? Sounds like Belcher, except you trade being better against Force for being vulnerable to commonly played hate.

    Versions with Duresses main and Show and Tell in the board have the advantage of having a passable to good matchup against counterspells, which is where I'd want to be in a large tournament.
    Yep, that was exactly my take. Now, if you can somehow fit something like City of Solitude or Abeyance into an LED build, then you might be cooking with gas. But I've yet to figure out some way to do that without totally wrecking the manabase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  19. #79
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm way late to the party here, but I saw throughout the thread that the deck can sometimes fizzle on mana post Gris and LED is too all in.
    I didn't see anyone mention Culling the Weak. With Gris coming in under a death sentence, it seems like the perfect addition.
    Last edited by dameus; 09-15-2012 at 04:52 AM.

  20. #80
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    I'm way late to the party here, but I saw throughout the thread that the deck can sometimes fizzle on mana post Gris and LED is too all in.
    I didn't see anyone mention Culling the Weak. With Gris coming in under a death sentence, it seems like the perfect addition.
    I actually had that in there for a time in a UB version instead of Chrome Mox. There are definitely applications - but my fizzling hasn't usually been because of mana. It's usually been because I can't find Tendrils or can't storm enough if Griselbrand is blocked. Burning Wish and Lim Dul's Vault helped with that in the 2 builds respectively, but still haven't really been able to fix it. It really needs something synergistic with Entomb to use as a tutor after drawing cards - something like Emrakul or Conflagrate.

    That said, using something to sac Grizzlebees to is pretty rad - my weapon of choice would likely be Cabal Therapy if I went that route - the deck is already light on disruption, and it's another free storm count.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

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