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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #81
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    That said, using something to sac Grizzlebees to is pretty rad - my weapon of choice would likely be Cabal Therapy if I went that route - the deck is already light on disruption, and it's another free storm count.
    Yup, Cabal Therapy can also target yourself as an additional way to get Gris in the 'yard in a pinch.

    I just realized that Burnt Offering is even better than my 1st suggestion. Might still get consideration as a 1 or 2 of, especially for the lists that splash red for Burning Wish.

    BTW, dk, I saw you got 56th at Denver. I didn't do so hot, either, and got 57th

  2. #82
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    Yup, Cabal Therapy can also target yourself as an additional way to get Gris in the 'yard in a pinch.

    I just realized that Burnt Offering is even better than my 1st suggestion. Might still get consideration as a 1 or 2 of, especially for the lists that splash red for Burning Wish.

    BTW, dk, I saw you got 56th at Denver. I didn't do so hot, either, and got 57th
    Ah yeah - burnt offering! That's a good idea - I vaguely recall Richard Cheese and I discussing that one early on in the UBr development, but we never tested it. Let us know if it tests well as an additional ritual.

    I think I've settled on my UBr list for the time being - the last one I posted. Has a reasonable backup plan out of the sideboard in a Sneak/Show transformation. Not sure Burnt Offering fits well there, as you need more red to activate Sneak Attack - but if there is another version that works well... by all means! Possibly one that uses Overmaster and Conflagrate?

    Hah, 1 spot behind me, eh? Did I meet you there, I don't remember? Sent you a PM, btw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  3. #83
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm still catching up on taking this deck thru it's paces. For ex, I finally proved to myself that Mox is good (at least 2, prob 3) and that I like 1x Emmy MD. I desperately want more protection than the proposed lists run. I've never played a combo deck w/ less than 8 (but I don't yet have a fully workable solution).
    I'm torn between adding the power/consistency of Burning Wish and having the super stable mana base that just UB provides. So, I'll provide comments on both:

    Red Splash:
    I'm not sold on a transformational SB, but if ya do, the Omni plan (with Emmy!) is way better than a the one w/ Sneak Attack. Omni-Emmy beats Karakas and Thalia. BTW, no need for Petals of Insight in SB. Omni plays it as an Alt Win Con vs Bridge and such. We already have a Storm win w/o it, tho, and nobody's siding in Bridge G2. You also want Emmy w/ Omni to get around the Storm hate.
    That all said, it seems very inefficient to transform into a new look that does little more than dodge grave hate (and to a lesser extent Storm hate). Post-SB, Blue still knows what to counter, Black still knows what to pluck, Gobo's are still coming at you full force, and Mav still has Thalia and Karakas. Sure, their GY hate cards are dead, but you stuffed your SB so full, you don't have any hate for them.
    Besides, the combo, as is, gets around over half the grave hate already (ooze, crypt, relic, surgical, extirpate) but still has trouble with some (Cage, Leylines, new 1W card from R2R). But why not just play 1x S&T (wishable) and 3 or so bounce (CoV) + the 1x artifact killer (I prefer Shattering Spree to get around counters) in SB? Just about any deck doesn't pack more than 4x grave hate cards. With some very flexible bounce and 1x wishable S&T (useful in G1 too!), we have enough to fight thru it!

    UB only
    14 lands is plenty from my testing
    2 Tendrils + 1 Emmy was always enough finishers in my testing
    I want to so bad down play the alternate way to get Griz in the 'yard (besides Entomb, which is a rock star). Assuming 7x reanimate effects and 3 Careful Study effects, and 4x Griz, couldn't you imagine chopping a reanimate or 2, all (or all but 1) Careful Study, and 2x Griz to run 4x Mystical Tutor (if they weren't banned!) and 2-3 more protection? Can we come close - legally? Maybe cut 1x reanimate, 2x CS, and 2x Griz and then +4 Peer Through Depths +1 Buried Alive??

    Lastly, this is a fun deck. I really want to make it work. However, I'm having trouble trying to prove how it could be better than Omni (which is my main deck ATM).

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    Last edited by dameus; 09-23-2012 at 02:05 AM. Reason: Intuiton & LDV over Buried Alive & Peer Thru Depths

  5. #85
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    I'm still catching up on taking this deck thru it's paces. For ex, I finally proved to myself that Mox is good (at least 2, prob 3) and that I like 1x Emmy MD. I desperately want more protection than the proposed lists run. I've never played a combo deck w/ less than 8 (but I don't yet have a fully workable solution).
    I'm torn between adding the power/consistency of Burning Wish and having the super stable mana base that just UB provides. So, I'll provide comments on both:

    Red Splash:
    I'm not sold on a transformational SB, but if ya do, the Omni plan (with Emmy!) is way better than a the one w/ Sneak Attack. Omni-Emmy beats Karakas and Thalia. BTW, no need for Petals of Insight in SB. Omni plays it as an Alt Win Con vs Bridge and such. We already have a Storm win w/o it, tho, and nobody's siding in Bridge G2. You also want Emmy w/ Omni to get around the Storm hate.
    That all said, it seems very inefficient to transform into a new look that does little more than dodge grave hate (and to a lesser extent Storm hate). Post-SB, Blue still knows what to counter, Black still knows what to pluck, Gobo's are still coming at you full force, and Mav still has Thalia and Karakas. Sure, their GY hate cards are dead, but you stuffed your SB so full, you don't have any hate for them.
    Besides, the combo, as is, gets around over half the grave hate already (ooze, crypt, relic, surgical, extirpate) but still has trouble with some (Cage, Leylines, new 1W card from R2R). But why not just play 1x S&T (wishable) and 3 or so bounce (CoV) + the 1x artifact killer (I prefer Shattering Spree to get around counters) in SB? Just about any deck doesn't pack more than 4x grave hate cards. With some very flexible bounce and 1x wishable S&T (useful in G1 too!), we have enough to fight thru it!

    UB only
    14 lands is plenty from my testing
    2 Tendrils + 1 Emmy was always enough finishers in my testing
    I want to so bad down play the alternate way to get Griz in the 'yard (besides Entomb, which is a rock star). Assuming 7x reanimate effects and 3 Careful Study effects, and 4x Griz, couldn't you imagine chopping a reanimate or 2, all (or all but 1) Careful Study, and 2x Griz to run 4x Mystical Tutor (if they weren't banned!) and 2-3 more protection? Can we come close - legally? Maybe cut 1x reanimate, 2x CS, and 2x Griz and then +4 Peer Through Depths +1 Buried Alive??

    Lastly, this is a fun deck. I really want to make it work. However, I'm having trouble trying to prove how it could be better than Omni (which is my main deck ATM).
    On the UB comment: we were just talking about this today. Getting Griz in the yard seems to be the most consistently weak part of the deck. We were actually talking about testing Intuition over some combination of Tendrils, Careful Study, LDV. It's expensive yes, but it has the benefit of being instant, and able to tutor for basically anything AND dump Griz. We're thinking 3 is probably the right number, but it needs to be tested in both versions.

    For the red version, we were also talking about Conflagrate as a win-con over Tendrils. The idea being that you don't necessarily need storm to win, since they probably don't have counters if your Grislebrand resolved and Conflagrate can be searched up by Entomb, so theoretically you need less main.

    Either way, how do you live in Denver, play TinFins, and not come to our weekly tournaments?!?! Or should I already know who this is?
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  6. #86
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Red Splash:
    I'm not sold on a transformational SB, but if ya do, the Omni plan (with Emmy!) is way better than a the one w/ Sneak Attack. Omni-Emmy beats Karakas and Thalia. BTW, no need for Petals of Insight in SB. Omni plays it as an Alt Win Con vs Bridge and such. We already have a Storm win w/o it, tho, and nobody's siding in Bridge G2. You also want Emmy w/ Omni to get around the Storm hate.
    That all said, it seems very inefficient to transform into a new look that does little more than dodge grave hate (and to a lesser extent Storm hate). Post-SB, Blue still knows what to counter, Black still knows what to pluck, Gobo's are still coming at you full force, and Mav still has Thalia and Karakas. Sure, their GY hate cards are dead, but you stuffed your SB so full, you don't have any hate for them.
    Besides, the combo, as is, gets around over half the grave hate already (ooze, crypt, relic, surgical, extirpate) but still has trouble with some (Cage, Leylines, new 1W card from R2R). But why not just play 1x S&T (wishable) and 3 or so bounce (CoV) + the 1x artifact killer (I prefer Shattering Spree to get around counters) in SB? Just about any deck doesn't pack more than 4x grave hate cards. With some very flexible bounce and 1x wishable S&T (useful in G1 too!), we have enough to fight thru it!

    I've actually tested an Omniscience board a good bit earlier in the year, and to be honest, it felt very weak. The deck is so ritual/mana heavy that by the time Omniscience actually hits play, you only sometimes have some sort of business to cast. It actually turns it into a 3 card combo, which is a bit rough. It's possible that Omniscience might be ok in a UB build though, but I'm pretty convinced that Sneak Attack is actually better in this deck.

    Sneak Attack also gets through Karakas, you just need another red mana to sneak it back into play. It does completely dodge storm hate if there is any - sneaking Emrakul into play pretty much gets around all of that. Griselbrand also gets around Karakas for the storm plan, even though it is a backup post board. I've had multiple games where I've won through a Karakas bouncing my Griselbrand, and I draw 14 in response and storm out.

    I've also tried that exact configuration in the board that you've tested - 1 S&T in the board, bring in 3 CoV, with Meltdown (the deck doesn't have enough red to support Shattering Spree - but I do agree, it is better against counters), Deathmark, Infest, Exhume, and Thoughtseize. Fighting through all of the hate they bring (thalia, grave hate, chalice, etc) with a wish board is pretty rough, as you need it to counter both their graveyard AND storm hate. I found that to be a good bit weaker than just changing the strategy to a combat based one (Sneak Attack). In fact, that is very similar to the configuration I took to SCG Denver (but I boarded in 3 show and tells, and left 1 in the board). In my experience anyway, this deck has a problem with a reactive sideboard in that there are too many things to react to. I suppose it is possible that this can change in a UBg version with Abrupt Decay, but I haven't yet explored how to make that work.

    Either way, how do you live in Denver, play TinFins, and not come to our weekly tournaments?!?! Or should I already know who this is?
    seconded... which is what my PM was about. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Maybe it's because I only play 2 ToA's, but I find that my (goldfish) kill is about 50/50 between ToA and Emmy. I'm assuming I get to draw 14 pre-combat if I go off T3 or earlier, but I realize that might be optimistic. Maybe I should only assume a pre-combat draw 14 on T1 or T2? I still haven't taken this deck for a spin at a tourny, so any practical advice from experience would be useful.

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Depends on what you're up against, and how aggressive their start was. Only a handful of decks in the format can lay down 5-7 damage over the first few turns. If you land a reanimation spell, it's a pretty good sign that they have no counters, the only thing you have to watch for at that point is Swords/Burn in response to your draws. I'm actually testing out Dispel over Duress currently in a UB build with Emrakul replacing Tendrils entirely.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I'm starting to think Pact of Negation deserves some consideration. Most storm decks don't run it usually because it doesn't play well with LED; but we don't have to worry about that.
    There's too many times I'm chosing between going off or delaying a turn to play a discard spell.

  10. #90
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Just wanted to bump this thread with some of the latest ideas .dk and I have been working on, see if anyone else is still playing the deck, has some new ideas, etc..

    Wincons
    First, one of the major themes lately has been alternate win-cons to Tendrils. We don't really have a good way to search up Tendrils, and it sucks drawing 21 cards and whiffing on your combo. Tendrils does have the unique advantage of being able to keep you in the game in a pinch, or let you activate Grizzlebees again, but these are situations that seem to come up very rarely. Tendrils is also very mana intensive, for a deck that doesn't run a lot of rituals.

    The simplest solution may be to cut Tendrils entirely and instead run a single Emrakul. You draw 7-14 pre-attack, and look for another Entomb/reanimation spell, then swing for lethal. This takes advantage of cards we're already running, and is one mana cheaper. It remains to be seen whether it can be as consistent trying to win via combat, with 7 fewer cards.

    Another option in UBr lists is Conflagrate, as you can also use Entomb as a cheap tutor for it. It also might provide surprising utility against Maverick, although as a 1-of, it's not something you really want to count on. This doesn't have the same resiliency to counters as Tendrils, but then again we are most likely in the clear if Griselbrand is actually on the table. I find that people will generally do everything they can to prevent getting teabagged by the baddest dude in town. On the other hand, if the deck gains in popularity, this seems like a less sustainable path, as people will know that there is a single point of failure that can be countered. It also makes us more reliant on combat.


    Protection
    As always, we're struggling to get more protection into the deck, without watering down it's effectiveness. Running Emrakul over Tendrils frees up some slots, which is one of its main advantages. After all the discussion in the "why isn't Junk more popular" thread regarding the efficacy of discard vs. counters, I've been trying to move back to counters in my UB list, possibly a mix of counters and discard. The thing I really like about counters is that they deal with all the same problems, but they don't lose to top decks, and they can be free, which is really nice in a deck that's very tight on mana. Then the problem becomes figuring out which will be effective, do we have enough blue to justify Force, etc. Stifle is also a card I've been toying with. Its applications here are fairly narrow, but possibly important enough to warrant inclusion if we need to start winning via combat.

    Sideboard
    A few different options here, we really need more testing to see what's working. We can go the transformational route towards Ad Nauseum or Doomsday (Shelldock? Lab Maniac?), or possibly even something jankier like Polymorph or UB control. Or we go with protection for our primary combo in the form of bounce, more discard, hate for the hatebears, etc.. So far I think my most successful UB board has been somewhere in between, running Show and Tell and Cabal Ritual to power out Griselbrand, and bounce/Pithing Needle to deal with Karakas/Maze/Bridge. This was still with Tendrils though and the main plan was still to try and win the turn Griselbrand came into play, rather than give them the opportunity to find an answer. With Emrakul as the main win-con, that doesn't really work as well. I believe .dk was having pretty good results in UBr basically boarding into Sneak/Show, adding more Emrakuls, Sneak Attack, and Show and Tell.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  11. #91

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Hey I didn't have the chance to read every post but I like the deck, I have tested the build that is on the front page and just had a question. With my limited testing it seemed to be pretty consistent and solid however I was just thinking when I dropped Grisslebrand and drawn a ton cards off of him on T2-3, I have quite a few reanimation spells. Why not add 1 Emrakul? I understand sometimes you get very low on life and you have to swing with Grisslebrand to get more cards and go off, but I think that adding 1 Emrakul would just add more to the deck then hurt it. Reasoning: if you entomb a Grisslebrand and they have Extirpate/Surgical Extraction your plan with him is over whether you saw it coming or not but this way you will have another chance with Emmy and all those entombs and reanimation spells are not wasted. Also if you reanimate him on the same turn as Grisslebrand before you swing you don't have to worry about fizzling. Lastly if you play versus a deck that is facing you down and you will lose next turn unless you wipe his board... well you have your man...-thing-creature.

  12. #92
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Ppa0 View Post
    Why not add 1 Emrakul?
    You'll see the same suggestion on post #71 and just about all lists after that include 1x Emmy (including mine on #84).
    I simply wouldn't play this deck without one MD.

  13. #93
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    yeah, you're both right. the latest lists that we've been testing all have 1 emrakul main for stated reasons, and also why Richard Cheese mentioned it in his last post. That's basically my most common win G1 - reanimate GB, draw 7-14, entomb + shallow grave emrakul out for the win.

    I wouldn't recommend testing the list that is currently in the primer - it needs updating. We more or less have 2 different versions of the deck now - a UB version, and a UBr version. I feel that the UBr list is fairly tuned at the moment along with a pretty decent sideboard plan (you could easily argue 1-2 maindeck slots still - potentially cut ToA main for the 3rd Goryo's Vengeance or more discard). However, it is a little weak to wastelands, and is lacking a bit in the protection department. Currently revisiting the UB version...

    Current UBr:


    1 Badlands
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Duress
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Faithless Looting
    SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 4 Sneak Attack
    SB: 4 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Meltdown
    SB: 1 Exhume
    SB: 1 Deathmark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  14. #94
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    This deck is awesome. Just awesome.
    I've been goldfishing a mono black version with LED + IT, a B/R version with burning wish and LED+IT, a B/U version with BS/Ponder and finally the UBr version. With the UBr version was the one i like most.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    yeah, you're both right. the latest lists that we've been testing all have 1 emrakul main for stated reasons, and also why Richard Cheese mentioned it in his last post. That's basically my most common win G1 - reanimate GB, draw 7-14, entomb + shallow grave emrakul out for the win.
    I found that when trying to setup ToA ftw you will always be able to also setup a hasted Grisel+Emmy and win with less effort. For this reason i have cut ToA from the Main. I left it in the board as an alt wincon. Also Conflagrate get moved out for now. It seems that you would always need to discard 13 cards drawn of at least 2 griselbrand activations + 1 attack with Griselbrand to do 20 damage. So it still is impossible to win with this card without having to attack with Griselbrand, making it kinda useless because setting up Emmy and attack with both is more easy to setup.

    I've put together the following list and will try it the next tournament. The list is nearly the same as .dk last post. Changed some fethlands more to my liking and replaced the Duress and ToA for 4 Cabal Therapy.

    The time Enter the Infinite becomes legal i will swap the 4 Sneak Attack to 4 Omniscience and i will squeeze in 1 Enter the Infinite and 1 of either Spiraling Ember or Conflagrate. The reason for this is that i want to be less combat dependant postboard. Also casting Emmy out of Omniscience is awesome. Although i do believe the Sneak Attack plan is a little more consistant where the Omniscience plan is dependant to Show and Tell.

    Edit: Come to think of it, i don't think not having a alternative win condition mainboard is not that great of an idea. I might just include the 1 ToA back in.


    1 Badlands
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn (might replace one for a mountain)
    1 Swamp
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    4 Shallow Grave
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Faithless Looting
    SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 4 Sneak Attack
    SB: 4 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Meltdown
    SB: 1 Exhume
    SB: 1 Deathmark
    Last edited by Bobmans; 01-02-2013 at 01:15 PM.

  15. #95

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    This deck is a powerhouse! Also, the funnest Legacy deck that I've played

    Some notes:

    Firstly, the sideboard, I don't have a transformational board or Plan B other than graveyard. The reason, its not needed. The power of the deck is absurd. The games I played, the opponents would bring in hate such as relic of progenitus, deathrite (main), surgical, bojuka, etc. None of these effect the deck's gameplan, I would just wait for a double casting of reanimation spells in response to their graveyard hate. That is why there are 2 reanimate in the sides, simply to bait their gy hate.

    Also, I cut 2 griselbrand and 1 tendrils for 3 lim duls vault. The deck wants to entomb griselbrand, not discard griselbrand, thus, 4 careless researcher is terrrible, as with only 5 creatures the chances of a blind bin are not good.

    Deck MVP: Daze, by a long shot. The deck only needs 1 land and goes off turn 1 or 2. Often I don't get a chance to play discard as its better to just combo off. I may maindeck 4 Force of Will, the only reason I haven't is between the disadvantage of chrome mox, lotus petal and lim duls vault I probably will not have a blue card in hand to pitch. I have them in the side, if I put them in the main, I may have to rebuild with gitaxian probe in the list.

    Intuition VS Lim Dul : What this came down to, is that Lim dul allows me to run less Wincons (Intuition needs 3 of each), and tutors my sideboard hate. Intuition's only advantage was that it can bin Grisel instead of just tutoring for the entomb. But that's not good games 2 and 3, as I want to emtomb and reanimate in the same turn to dodge hate.

    I will be playing this UB list in the Legacy DE's.


    Protection:

    Daze X 4 <--------MVP
    Thoughtseize X 2
    Inquisition of Kozilek X 2

    Filter/Tutor:

    Brainstorm X 4
    Ponder X 4
    Lim Dul's Vault X 3
    Entomb X 4

    Acceleration:

    Lotus Petal X 4
    Dark Ritual X 4
    Chrome Mox X 3

    Reanimation:

    Shallow Grave X 4
    Goryo's Vengeance X 3

    Win Cons:

    Emrakul the Eaons Torn X 1
    Griselbrand X 2
    Tendrils of Agony X 2

    SideBoard:

    Reanimate X 2
    Dread of Night X 2
    Engineered Explosives X 2
    Force of Will X 3
    Thoughtseize X 1
    Chain of Vapor X 2
    Mindbreak Trap X 1
    Pithing Needle X 2
    Last edited by Wess; 01-02-2013 at 02:16 PM. Reason: update notes

  16. #96
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    My take on the last couple posts...

    In general, I think it is worth it to splash a 3rd color. Be it red, white, or green - each have their merits. We are fast enough (like TES), that we can play around wasteland.

    @Bobmans: With the red splash - I found myself hating Burning Wish every time I cast it. The deck doesn't make boatloads of mana, so I was always struggling to have enough to BW and then cast Tendrils - could be fixed with LED's, but I think we've had that discussion before. However, that may be the right direction to take the red splash.

    I saw after your edit that you think having a maindeck alternative win con has merit - I see your original point as well (although I don't seem to be able to successfully make a hasty Griselbrand and Emrakul pre-combat as consistently as you). If you have burning wishes, you sort of already have an alternate win con main - you just need enough mana to cast them all. Like Rite of Flames or LED's or something. I still think there is something there with UBr, I just haven't been able to figure it out quite yet. Conflagrate was probably bad, as it is too conditional, as you said - especially without a good way to protect it.

    Also I tried Omniscience with SnT a long time ago - and it felt like it just turned into a 3 card combo at that point. I liked Sneak Attack for the same reason that Sneak and Show does - it's actually cast-able if SnT gets countered. It does make you combat reliant (as you said) so maybe you want a wishable answer like Eye of Nowhere (as awful as the casting cost is) to make sure you can deal with Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.

    @Wess: Yeah, Daze can be very awesome since the deck is so fast. And this deck isn't limited in design space of counterspells since we aren't running LED, so countermagic is certainly an option. I like targeted discard main (granted, you're running 4), so that I can get more information on what my opponent has (and may bring in) for games 2 and 3 to adjust my gameplan. Been trying to figure out a way to fit Daze in to any of my builds, but haven't really found a configuration I liked yet.

    That said - I think you might be a little too reliant upon finding Entomb in your first couple draws. Finding a 4-of is not a guarantee; especially not with only 4 brainstorms and 4 ponders to find it. I personally like having more ways to discard Griselbrand (careful study, cabal therapy, thoughtseize, etc) - in your build, I think Intuition might have a lot of merit in this regard over Lim-Dul's Vault, considering it can bin Griselbrand to reanimate. But I do also understand the merit of being able to cut some maindeck wincons for LDV. You may consider going to 1 Tendrils in that case depending on the mana you run. After swinging, you need to make UUB to LDV into tendrils and cast brainstorm/ponder to draw it - that seems potentially doable with some number of rituals, petals, and chrome moxes.

    Also, if you're planning on just getting more reanimation spells post board to counteract grave hate, wouldn't you want the 4th Goryo's Vengeance? Can you explain what the rest of your sideboard is for as well? I can take some guesses...

    Dread of Night - Thalia
    EE - ?? Seems a bit mana intensive to be of real use, but maybe I'm missing something
    Pithing Needle - Deathrite, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic?

    Good ideas from a different angle though - let us know how your lists test out in practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  17. #97

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @.dk

    Intuition is no good, because my list goes all in on the graveyard strategy, so, to beat the most played gy hate, you have to be able to entomb+reanimate same turn.

    As for the sideboard, its a work in progress. But, what you have to understand is that I play on MTGO, so, my deck/sideboard will be tuned for that meta. Currently, the meta is dominated by BUG, Combo (Belcher and ANT) and counterbalance decks. So, my sideboard is:

    Engineered Explosives = Most versatile counter-hate, kills Turn 1 Goblins from TES and Belcher (if I can't go off), defeats counterbalance, RIP, Thorn etc.
    Dread of Night= Thalia, Aven Mindcensor (Teeg is no problem for my build)
    Pithing Needle= DRS, Relic, Crypt, Karakas etc.
    Chain of Vapor= LotV (though you don't see this)

    Really, the tough part is deciding what to side in game 2, or if at all to side anything in. I might try running 4 Dark confidant in side as well to counter discard and combo, which isn't so scary since I can cut to just 1 Gris and 1 Emmy.

    As for Reanimate in side over Goryo, its 1 less mana, which is HUGE. Remember, its just to bait them, you need, Entomb + Reanimate effect + Reanimate effect to go off through hate, so 4 mana is much easier than 5 mana.

    Will post a tourno report tommorow.

    Cheers,

    Wess

  18. #98
    shallow
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Wess View Post
    @.dk

    Intuition is no good, because my list goes all in on the graveyard strategy, so, to beat the most played gy hate, you have to be able to entomb+reanimate same turn.

    As for the sideboard, its a work in progress. But, what you have to understand is that I play on MTGO, so, my deck/sideboard will be tuned for that meta. Currently, the meta is dominated by BUG, Combo (Belcher and ANT) and counterbalance decks. So, my sideboard is:

    Engineered Explosives = Most versatile counter-hate, kills Turn 1 Goblins from TES and Belcher (if I can't go off), defeats counterbalance, RIP, Thorn etc.
    Dread of Night= Thalia, Aven Mindcensor (Teeg is no problem for my build)
    Pithing Needle= DRS, Relic, Crypt, Karakas etc.
    Chain of Vapor= LotV (though you don't see this)

    Really, the tough part is deciding what to side in game 2, or if at all to side anything in. I might try running 4 Dark confidant in side as well to counter discard and combo, which isn't so scary since I can cut to just 1 Gris and 1 Emmy.

    As for Reanimate in side over Goryo, its 1 less mana, which is HUGE. Remember, its just to bait them, you need, Entomb + Reanimate effect + Reanimate effect to go off through hate, so 4 mana is much easier than 5 mana.

    Will post a tourno report tommorow.

    Cheers,

    Wess
    Fair, I hear that there are less FoW on MTGO than real life, so maybe your success rate of resolving entomb is higher. Definitely look forward to seeing your results though.
    Find me on Twitter: @beanaman

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  19. #99
    Pancake
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Wess View Post
    ..
    Daze X 4 <--------MVP
    Thoughtseize X 2
    Inquisition of Kozilek X 2
    Lim Dul's Vault X 3
    ..
    SideBoard:
    ..
    Reanimate X 2
    Dread of Night X 2
    Engineered Explosives X 2
    Force of Will X 3
    Thoughtseize X 1
    Chain of Vapor X 2
    Mindbreak Trap X 1
    Pithing Needle X 2
    I really like your approach on this deck with the "free" protection. Also i have been thinking about better options to support a turn 1/2 combo instead of Thoughtseize, IoK or Cabal Therapy. I've been looking into other "free" spells and found interest in Misdirection and Unmask. I figured that both can support a turn 1/2 combo. Now i do like multi roles in supportive cards. Misdirection in an opponents turn one on Hymn, Thoughtseize or IoK sounds tasty. Where Unmask can be cast on youself to discard Griselbert.
    As for Lim-dul's Vault, this card is cast as early as turn 2 to enable turn 3 business. I like it better than Intuition as it costs less and as it is both black and blue it can be used as fodder for both unmask and misdirection.
    So my configuration would be:

    4 Daze
    2 Misdirection
    2 Unmask
    3 Lim-Dul's Vault

    As for the sideboard plan. It is a solid plan, but i am not to sold on 2 Reanimate, 1 Thoughtseize and 1 Mindbreak Trap. I understand the Reanimate plan, i would rather go on to protect it with more counters/discard. Where the drawback of Thoughtseize is a bit problematic as you can have a maximum of 5 damage before activating Griselbert twice. And still there lot of Lightning Bolts. Also having fetchlands does not help. So i would go for either Duress or Cabal Therapy as they can also remove FoW. Next to this i think that 3 FoW is the right amount. As i would have 2 Misdirection and 2 Unmask making 7 remove some other business from the game a lot. Personally i would also replace Dread of Night for Deathmark seeing so much BUG lists lately that it might be helpfull to also take care of DRS, Ooze, Teeg, ethersworn cannonist, etc.
    I think i would make it like this:

    3 Force of Will
    3 Deathmark
    3 Duress
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Chain of Vapor
    2 Engineered Explosives


    I do like the UB list like this, but i am sticking to the UBR version for now.

    I do agree that Burning Wish can be either dead or clunky. Even in my OmniTell list it mostly feels clunky and it will 9/10 times go for S&T in that list anyway. I like the sideboard plan of the UBR list as that is the main reason i am running that list. Burning wish is more of a backup plan, but requires so much mana. Although during goldfishing i never got out of mana as i always found some way to get the right mana. I haven't played it on a tournament yet. Until i have done that, i will stick to the same list for a better evaluation.
    Last edited by Bobmans; 01-03-2013 at 03:06 AM. Reason: Typo's

  20. #100
    Pancake
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Against Empty the Warrens this looks really funny to reanimate: Massacre Wurm...

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