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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #1041
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Right - draw as many cards as possible (and play around Lightning Bolt...), seven cards at a time. If the first seven don't find a winning combination, draw another seven. Evaluate each time to see if there's a path to either draw more cards, or win outright.

    Sometimes, it's Entomb (Kids) + Reanimate to keep going deeper.
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Someone posted asking about when to go for the Griselbrand + Emrakul kill or go for the Storm kill. Saw this corner case in the MTGS DnT thread and figured it could be insightful:
    Always go for the most expeditious kill. But if he has freaking Karakas in play, of course things are going to get a little trickier. Your best bet in that case is just not even bother with Emrakul and just attempt to go infinite. Fortunately it's really easy to transition from drawing your deck to just attacking with Emrakul.

    I'm very convinced that Tendrils is a crutch in almost every preboard game and many postboard. I played a local tournament with a Tendrils in the board, so I'll give a quick report then share some post-event thoughts.

    First, my list. It's nothing especially revolutionary, just some tweaks:
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Entomb
    1 Reanimate
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Silence
    1 Children of Korlis
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    2 Lim-Dul's Vault
    2 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    // 14 lands
    4 Marsh Flats
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Scrubland
    1 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    1 Island

    // Sideboard
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Xantid Swarm
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Massacre
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Pull from Eternity
    1 Silence
    2 Serenity
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Teferi's Realm

    My thought was that Lim-Dul's Vault really pushes you to play an Island and a Swamp (which ended up being reasonably valid), and the sideboard was really just to get a feel for a bunch of different but similar effects. I cut a Probe for a Silence because I really wanted to fit a second Silence in the main but also wanted 14 lands for Mox Diamond.

    Round 1 - Dredge
    I got him game 1 by just being faster after his mull to 5. Boarded in 2 Chain (for Iona) and 2 Surgical for 3 Gitaxian Probe and 1 Cabal Therapy.
    Game 2 he mulliganned to 6, dropped Leyline, and passed. I kept a no-lander with the combo and Surgical on 6. He found a land and dredgers before I found a land and bounce spell. Game 3 I had the choice of playing basic Island and holding up Brainstorm or cracking my fetch for Sea to Thoughtseize his 7 card hand. I ended up Thoughtseizing and taking his Faithless Looting out of a hand with no dredgers, but my Brainstorm bricked on action or shuffles and he killed me.
    0-1

    Round 2 - Niv-Magus Combo
    Game 1 he got me down to 13 with Niv-Magus Elemental, but then instead of leaving up Flusterstorm he decided to Ponder. He seemed inexperienced to not leave up protection after seeing me play Probe and LDV and was also playing a shockland, so I just went for it. Went infinite, drew deck, he made me go through it until I cast Emrakul. Took a good 5 minutes, but it was kinda fun in the miserable High Tide sort of sense. Boarded in Silence, 1 Chain of Vapor, and Xantid Swarm for 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Gitaxian Probe, and 1 LDV. Game 2 I played it slow and steady. Waited for protection instead of running out the combo, was rewarded by Thoughtseizing Flusterstorm then my topdecked Silence beat his topdecked Surgical.
    1-1

    Round 3 - Hoogland Loam
    This deck is just terrifying to a storm-style combo deck. Won the die roll, then Therapied both his Chalice of the Voids in the blind. He didn't recover. Boarded -2 Silence, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 LDV, +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Serenity, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +Teferi's Realm, +1 Pull from Eternity.
    Game 2 He dropped a Chalice on 1. I was fine with that since I had the Serenity and 2 lands in hand, but ended up waiting too long to play it (since I didn't have the combo or cantrips in hand), and got 2-shotted by a Knight. My bad. Game 3 I Thoughtseized his Thalia on a mull to 5, but took a while to find the pieces. He dropped a Sylvan Library, I durdled, he drew all 3 then Devastating Dreamseded for 2. I had Mox Diamond in play and could cast LDV for Entomb in response with the DR and Shallow Grave in hand, so that worked out ok.
    2-1

    Round 4 - Godo Dragon Stompy
    Played by nedleeds, of course. Game 1 he mulliganed to a turn 2 Trinisphere on the play, but I topdecked the Entomb. My hand was pretty soft to Trinisphere, but not Blood Moon or Chalice: a land, Petal, Dark Rit, Gitaxian Probe, Griselbrand, Shallow Grave, and something else - a pretty easy draw-discard hand. Boarded similar to last round except brought in Chains over Pull and Tendrils. Game 2 he dropped a quick Magus of the Moon into Batterskull while I tried to find the kill. EOT LDV cast off of basics found the combo, but I couldn't find another IMS to continue after attacking with Griselbrand. Died to the swingback. Game 3 he mulliganned into a fine hand with Crypt and turn 1 Blood Moon. My Thoughtseize took the Crypt then I killed him a couple of turns later without him having found a good lockpiece.
    3-1

    Quarters - Megadeus with Hoogland Loam
    He mulliganned to 5 and my Thoughtseize took his Chalice of the Void. Then I killed him in a turn or two later. Boarding same as before. Game 2 he had no turn 1 play and my Thoughtseize took his Thalia. He droppeda Kngiht and EOT I LDVd for the Entomb to pair with my Reanimate, cast Chain of Vapor on his KotR, made a Griselbrand, and passed at 3 life. He replayed Knight, I swung in but decided to not go for it and instead played Needle on Karakas. He cast Burning Wish and tanked for literally 5 minutes, then figured out that with me at 10, Chainer's Edict was really good. Knight got there. I punted by forgetting how many outs he has to a resolved Griselbrand and should have just gone for it at 10 life. Game 3 he dropped Chalice into Thalia. I played a couple basics then spent a couple of turns drawing to 8 and discarding Griselbrand. Tapped out to reanimate a Griselbrand, draw 14, passed with Massacre, Serenity, Shallow Grave, another land, DR, Pull, and Entomb in hand. He swung in, then I killed his dudes and dropped Serenity. Unfortunately, he had a Wish and Pulsed Serenity, which pretty much locked me out.


    So overall thoughts:
    Lim-Dul's Vault was definitely great. I doubted you guys before, but it's lived up to expectations. I liked having both basics and never got screwed on color. Part of that was Mox Diamond - it was good in the one game where I was a little flooded as a wasteland-proof dual. It was bad once while resolving LDV where a Chrome Mox would have been good, but wasn't game-ending. .dk always said it was good for him, so I'd been meaning to try it out.

    I feel like I only really wanted Tendrils in against decks with Karakas and/or Swords. It was a fine board card, but I'm very happy to not be maindecking it. Combo turns took deliciously long (with me playing quickly) and were completely miserable for my opponents. Silence is a very good extra effect to have. I felt like the deck has never felt more consistent.

    My sideboard was pretty random but I got a good feel for what effects I wanted. I think I want to cut a Teferi's Realm and a Reverent Silence for an Abrupt Decay and a Silence.

    On the whole, it's feeling like the meta is shifting in a more favorable direction if people are playing more Omniscience and less Jund. The transition from Esper to Deathblade can't be too bad either. People seem to be trimming the grave hate again, so it's time for graveyard decks to pounce.
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  3. #1043
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Yeah the basics I think were very good at least against me. Especially in a waste heavy meta like ours. I just luck sacked into a win there. LDV is basically a vampiric and watching you play it, it seemed like it did an extreme amount of work. Also I agree with the addition of an abrupt decay to the board, especially since not just in our meta, but everyone is seeming to figure out how good chalice of the void is again.
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  4. #1044
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Haven't played with the deck for a while. What came to mind lately (not sure if someone brought it up) to abuse LDV a bit more. What I mean is by stacking the deck you can use thought scour instead of careful study as an additional discard outlet. Works with brainstorm and ponder as well of course, but has the advantage of providing "card advantage" by getting the graveyard bin for free as opposed to careful study where you lose 2 cards to get the effect.
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  5. #1045
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Haven't played with the deck for a while. What came to mind lately (not sure if someone brought it up) to abuse LDV a bit more. What I mean is by stacking the deck you can use thought scour instead of careful study as an additional discard outlet. Works with brainstorm and ponder as well of course, but has the advantage of providing "card advantage" by getting the graveyard bin for free as opposed to careful study where you lose 2 cards to get the effect.
    LDV and topdecking and Brainstorm are enough. Using LDV and paying more than 10 life is counter to the deck's plan of reanimating Griselbrand and drawing a bunch of cards. Playing Thought Scour is also just plain worse than any other cantrip.
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  6. #1046

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Fuck. Do you guys just get home and start typing after the Wednesday night?

    I was playing Blood Moon and honestly on the draw it's pretty useless against this deck -- if I had anything remotely better I would have sided out at least some Moon effects on the draw. But I had Pyrokinesis, and some other anti dude measures to ensure that I wasn't toast vs. The Hunter (a local goblin aficionado / legend / god / sack).

    I boarded in the 4th Revoker and 3 Crypts and a Jitte in case I got stuck with a Grey Ogre as my only beater.

  7. #1047
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Fuck. Do you guys just get home and start typing after the Wednesday night?
    Well, yeah. Unlike you old farts, young guys like me don't have a bedtime
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  8. #1048
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    So overall thoughts:
    Lim-Dul's Vault was definitely great. I doubted you guys before, but it's lived up to expectations. I liked having both basics and never got screwed on color. Part of that was Mox Diamond - it was good in the one game where I was a little flooded as a wasteland-proof dual. It was bad once while resolving LDV where a Chrome Mox would have been good, but wasn't game-ending. .dk always said it was good for him, so I'd been meaning to try it out.

    I feel like I only really wanted Tendrils in against decks with Karakas and/or Swords. It was a fine board card, but I'm very happy to not be maindecking it. Combo turns took deliciously long (with me playing quickly) and were completely miserable for my opponents. Silence is a very good extra effect to have. I felt like the deck has never felt more consistent.

    My sideboard was pretty random but I got a good feel for what effects I wanted. I think I want to cut a Teferi's Realm and a Reverent Silence for an Abrupt Decay and a Silence.

    On the whole, it's feeling like the meta is shifting in a more favorable direction if people are playing more Omniscience and less Jund. The transition from Esper to Deathblade can't be too bad either. People seem to be trimming the grave hate again, so it's time for graveyard decks to pounce.
    Mox Diamond is pretty good sometimes - I had never tried it without running any Chrome Moxen at the same time. Curious if it's actually better than the 1st Chrome Mox, or just better than the 2nd or 3rd Chrome Mox. I think it becomes even more valuable if you're running Abrupt Decay though, since fixing across 3 colors in this deck can be pretty abysmal without running City of Ass or Gemstone Mine (which in turn make the rest of the deck abysmal). That said, I still don't really like Abrupt Decay in the deck. I feel like in the situations where I would want it, Serenity (Chalice, Sphere of Resistance), Reverent Silence (Counterbalance, Rest in Peace), or bounce (Thalia, Rest in Peace) are just as good at dealing with those situations along with other added benefits. My take though - if it's working, I certainly can't dispute it. I would ask if when you're drawing it, think about Serenity, Reverent Silence, or Cain of Vapor and if any of those would have been just as good in those same scenarios (or if you would have even boarded those in, for that matter).

    I can't come up with a solid argument as to why I want Tendrils main - I can see your point. I think it does need to be in the 75 somewhere as it does get you out of a few sticky situations. There are certainly rogue builds out there (I'm looking at you Moat Stompy) where Tendrils is probably worthwhile, but nothing in the metagame at large really sticks out to me. Someone please let me know if I'm missing something, though, as I haven't been keeping up with Legacy as much lately as I would like.


    I also agree that it seems like a good time for graveyard decks to make a resurgence. I haven't tested against Deathblade at all - how is that matchup?
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  9. #1049
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    That said, I still don't really like Abrupt Decay in the deck. I feel like in the situations where I would want it, Serenity (Chalice, Sphere of Resistance), Reverent Silence (Counterbalance, Rest in Peace), or bounce (Thalia, Rest in Peace) are just as good at dealing with those situations along with other added benefits. My take though - if it's working, I certainly can't dispute it. I would ask if when you're drawing it, think about Serenity, Reverent Silence, or Cain of Vapor and if any of those would have been just as good in those same scenarios (or if you would have even boarded those in, for that matter).
    I did do that when I was boarding. Serenity is good, but I really wanted an Abrupt Decay to answer both Thalia and Chalice of the Void. When a deck has hate bears as well as hate artifacts or enchantments, Abrupt Decay shines.

    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    I can't come up with a solid argument as to why I want Tendrils main - I can see your point. I think it does need to be in the 75 somewhere as it does get you out of a few sticky situations. There are certainly rogue builds out there (I'm looking at you Moat Stompy) where Tendrils is probably worthwhile, but nothing in the metagame at large really sticks out to me. Someone please let me know if I'm missing something, though, as I haven't been keeping up with Legacy as much lately as I would like.
    The big maindeck cards that I can think of that shut down Griselbrand are Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Peacekeeper, Karakas, and sometimes Swords to Plowshares, where Griselbrand is more likely to be a huge storm engine than an actual win condition. Fortunately, those decks are pretty rogue. Tezzeret, Affinity, Lands, and to some extent Maverick and Hoogland Loam. I think Stax doesn't count because we're likely to either kill them or have to play Serenity before going off. Generally Tendrils is worthwhile postboard against the W decks when they get to bring in grave hate as well as Karakas or Swords.
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  10. #1050

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    How much do you like the Reanimate?
    In testing I'd rather not have it most of the time. Yes it can help getting t1 Griselbrand since you only need 2 mana instead of 3 but it's weak to Karakas, swords.

    The moment where Reanimate really shines is when going off to get our childen back but then again, when we're going off we often allready have 3 mana pre-combat, thus can get Emrakul or do have a really good shot for having 3 mana anway post combat and can return childen with Shallow Grave.

    That was my reason for cutting it in favor of the 4th Goryo's in it's place last saturday, unfortunately I didn't mark the one to see which card I rather have while playing the tournament.

  11. #1051
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    You could also try playing Exhume.

    Reanimate shines well against Tarmogoyf decks when you can force them to discard it. Otherwise, Exhume is a good substitute. Be mindful that it does cost more, so it becomes a bit more difficult to use. It's also symmetrical. The important point vs the 4th Goryo's Vengeance is that it should be able to reanimate Children of Korlis, which both Reanimate and Exhume can do.
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  12. #1052

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Against most Tarmogoyf decks I'd rather discard their ways to disrupt me, whether it beeing counterspells, discard or shamans.
    Obviously there are situation where it's right to let them discard Goyf, as example if they have no other pressure but a hand full of permission.

    Haven't thought about Exhume in this deck yet, beeing symmetrical should be largely irrelevant, but like you said, it does cost 2 - so why not playing the 4th Vengeance which should be supreme to it ?


    I'm soon gonna test a list with 1 Children (playing 2 right now), maybe then I'm more often in the need to really reanimate it rather then casting/Shallow Graving it and thus coming back to it.

  13. #1053
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    Haven't thought about Exhume in this deck yet, beeing symmetrical should be largely irrelevant, but like you said, it does cost 2 - so why not playing the 4th Vengeance which should be supreme to it ?
    The difference is that Exhume can get back Children, whereas Goryo's Vengeance cannot. That purpose is the primary reason there is an additional reanimation effect in the deck at all.
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  14. #1054
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    I'm soon gonna test a list with 1 Children (playing 2 right now), maybe then I'm more often in the need to really reanimate it rather then casting/Shallow Graving it and thus coming back to it.
    I recommend my BoM list (61 cards). You can easily cut a Gitaxian Probe or an USea/fetchland to make it 60 cards. I don't think the difference between 60/13/4, 60/14/4, or 61/14/4 is noticeable in this list.
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  15. #1055
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    How much do you like the Reanimate?
    In testing I'd rather not have it most of the time. Yes it can help getting t1 Griselbrand since you only need 2 mana instead of 3 but it's weak to Karakas, swords.

    The moment where Reanimate really shines is when going off to get our childen back but then again, when we're going off we often allready have 3 mana pre-combat, thus can get Emrakul or do have a really good shot for having 3 mana anway post combat and can return childen with Shallow Grave.

    That was my reason for cutting it in favor of the 4th Goryo's in it's place last saturday, unfortunately I didn't mark the one to see which card I rather have while playing the tournament.
    Keep in mind that when I originally rebuilt the deck (that makes it sound so fancy...) based on traditional reanimator lists, I started with 9 reanimation spells. Only when I proposed Probe did I cut down to the "stock" 8. Traditional reanimator now plays 10 reanimation spells. The marginal percentages for playing reanimate vs. Goryo's Vengeance vs. Exhume are pretty small, but I've found the 1-mana reanimate effect useful pre and post combo. That being said, any choice can't be that far wrong, and it's not right out to play more reanimation effects.
    Also disclaimer, walker and others proposed Probe in the list before me. I'm not trying to take credit from their work in developing the deck.

    I think that Exhume should only be a consideration if you're playing a ton of Pull from Eternities. Otherwise Reanimate or Goryo's Vengeance are just better.

    Edit: seconded on what Koby said. People make a big deal about minor changes, but at the end of the day, it's not really that much different.
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  16. #1056
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I won a few games off of a t1 Reanimate on Griselbrand, it's great against decks like Burn or RUG or Goblins (essentially red decks) that can't deal with a large creature on t1.

    It's risky, but sometimes it is the correct line of play.
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  17. #1057

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    If you are mainly going to use Exhume to get back Children, I'd suggest you use Animate Dead since it's not symmetrical and has the same CMC. Personally I think that the only downside of Animate Dead is that it can be Stifled, but does make sure your opponent can't get back a hatebear of its own. Also Animate Dead can get a creature from your opponents graveyard (just like Reanimate).
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  18. #1058
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Yea that's a good alternative too. It's a little weaker than Exhume because it turns on Abrupt Decay in those match ups where that matters, but it's about as 90% as effective.
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  19. #1059
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Yea that's a good alternative too. It's a little weaker than Exhume because it turns on Abrupt Decay in those match ups where that matters, but it's about as 90% as effective.
    As phazonmuant said, Exhume gets better with Pull from Eternity as well, since it doesn't target.
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  20. #1060

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    well, yeah. Unlike you old farts, young guys like me don't have a bedtime
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