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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #101

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Well, my 1st MTGO DE didn't go so well, ended up 2-2, should have been 3-1 but I mis-clicked a lim-dul's vault.

    Round 1: Burn

    Game 1: I have the Godly trio of Dark Ritual, Entomb, Shallow Grave. Turn 1, he wins roll, plays a mountain and a goblin, I laugh at his puny 2/2 goblin attacking me. My turn, Etomb Gris and reanimate him. I draw 14 before combat phase to try and get an Emmy to swing for 22, this doesn't work. I then swing for 7 and draw another 7, but don't find anything. I try lim dul's vault, but run out of life, uugh.

    Side: Out 2 thoughtseize, in 2 FOW
    Game 2: I smash him turn 3 for 22 with Emmy and Gris.
    Game 3: I animate Gris early, draw 14 and find nothing. Decide to set up for another turn and gain 7 life attacking. On his turn he plays pyrostatic pillar, ughh. gg
    Note: I got fireblasted for the lose both times both times.

    Note: Lim Duls is tough to get your winning card, because we don't have that much free mana, and I need 2 blue to search, then a ponder or brainstorm to draw it.

    Round 2 Junk?

    Game 1
    I have nothing good in hand, but have ponder, ok, I keep. Nothing happens for a few turns and he has a KOTR on the board. The next turn, I reanimate Gris, he responds by Swords, I draw 7. I then reanimate another Gris and proceed to Tendrils for the win.
    Game 2
    Was quick game, basically, he lands Relic of Progenitus turn 1. On my turn 3 I reanimate Gris, he cracks relic, I double reanimate and storm him out.

    Round 3 UW Counterbalance

    Game 1
    I go for turn 2 Gris after he plays SDT. I cast shallow grave, in response, he Spell Pierce's it, I Dark Ritual in Response, he FOW's, I daze his FOW
    Game 2
    I don't have a fast hand and he lands Relic of Progenitus the countertop combo and rest in peace. No problem though, I play engineered explosives blow up his gravehate. Next turn I double reanimate through his FOW and relic with my force of will and reanimate+shallow grave.

    Round 4 Burn

    Again, I whiff on Gris both times.


    Realistically, neither beating with Emrakul for 15 of storming off was that reliable, and lim dul's was a bit underwhelming, especially against burn. Its a tough call what to do, make the storm more reliable or keep the Emmy plan. Basically, I found that I would never want to attack with just Emrakul, I always went for Griselbrand, so, I may have to make some tweaks to make casting and finding Tendrils easier. If I did, I would have one both burn matches with ease and 4-0'd.

  2. #102
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @wess
    Kinda disappointing when you expect more out of the deck.
    How where the discard spells? Did those help?
    And although draw 14 should be enough to win the game, i found myself fizzling with the UBR version myself couple of times. It still lacks consistancy post-grizzlebrand.

  3. #103

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I think that this deck is missing a card that will make it top tier, unfortunately, I don't think that card has been printed yet.

    The real problem is that every card that is awesome after a Gris reanimation (ie. Diabolic Intent, Snapcaster Mage, Burnt Offerring, Grim Tutor etc), is bad before a Gris reanimation. Griselbrand alone never gets there, because after drawing 14-21, a Goyf, burn or hate piece will race your deck. I think its essential that this deck wins on the turn Gris is reanimated, otherwise, its better to play Next Level Reanimator.


    Concerning discard, its ok but not close to being as good as Daze/counter. After a Gris reanimation, its better in that it ups your storm count, but that's rarely ever an issue in the first place.

    Edit. I'm thinking that a rebuild is in order. I just realized that post Gris reanimation, there is a 1 mana instant that allows you to cast every mana source and draw your entire deck---Angel's Grace. Will try a test build with cunning wish, then post Gris, you have a 4 mana win-con (wish+angels grace)

  4. #104
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Sorry, Wess. Angel's Grace doesn't do what you want it to. It only protects against damage - not life loss / pay life effects - and you can only pay life you have.

  5. #105
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by dameus View Post
    Sorry, Wess. Angel's Grace doesn't do what you want it to. It only protects against damage - not life loss / pay life effects - and you can only pay life you have.
    It seems that you can get you're life total into the negative since you can't lse the game this turn, but i think thst you can't activate Griselbrand when you have 6life or less.
    Sorry bad writing, but this smartphone is sooo annoying. :-/

  6. #106
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmans View Post
    It seems that you can get you're life total into the negative since you can't lse the game this turn, but i think thst you can't activate Griselbrand when you have 6life or less.
    Sorry bad writing, but this smartphone is sooo annoying. :-/
    This is true, you can lose life below 0 because you can't lose the game this turn, however you can't pay life you don't have (EG Griselbrands D7 when <7 life)

  7. #107

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Right, slipped my mind on the life thing, I got excited

    However, there is another card that does work, for only 1 more mana : Search Warrant http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=253614

    It would be draw 21 cards +21 initial Gris +8 naturally drawn + (casted cards, entomb, brainstorm, fetechland) =53+ cards. A single Laboratory Maniac is an auto non-targeted win condition
    Last edited by Wess; 01-06-2013 at 10:42 PM.

  8. #108
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Wess View Post
    Right, slipped my mind on the life thing, I got excited

    However, there is another card that does work, for only 1 more mana : Search Warrant http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=253614

    It would be draw 21 cards +21 initial Gris +8 naturally drawn + (casted cards, entomb, brainstorm, fetechland) =53+ cards. A single Laboratory Maniac is an auto non-targeted win condition
    That mana being U and W. It feels kinda complicated to set up Search Warrant ftw. I will toy around with it a bit in Cockatrice.

    Also i have been thinking about a setup with LED+IT. As it can help with both Pre- as Post Griselbrand. In this case i am thinking of cutting Emrakul for Skirge Familiar so i can setup a discard outlet as a way to convert 'dead' cards into mana.
    EDIT: Something like the Bargain deck had during the Urza block.
    I am not sure of the setup tho. Maybe something like:

    4 Griselbrand
    1 Skirge Familiar
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Chrome Mox
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Faithless Looting
    3 Burning Wish
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Entomb
    4 Shallow Grave
    2 Goryo's Vengeance
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Scalding Tarn

    Sideboard:
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    14 others..

    It looks cool, but it might be just rubbish. Lacking to much protection.

  9. #109
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Well, I did pretty terrible at GP Denver, but overall I was pretty happy with my list. It has a ton of play, and in my opinion, fixes a lot of the problems I've historically had with the list. Sometimes you just can't beat 3 Force of Wills + Extirpate though...

    Here is what I ran:

    Maindeck:

    4 Griselbrand
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    2 Children of Korlis
    4 Shallow Grave
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Entomb
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Careful Study
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Mox Diamond

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Tundra
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Karakas


    Sideboard:

    4 Show and Tell
    2 Lim-Dul's Vault
    2 Echoing Truth
    3 Flusterstorm
    3 Divert
    1 Karakas


    I ended up 2-3 and dropped after that, and was pretty disappointed. The deck played pretty well - I played extremely loose in one of my matches that likely cost me the match. I'll post a pseudo report later...

    I took the same list except for 1 change to the sideboard (4 Flusterstorm and 2 Divert) to the Legacy Redux on Sunday, and ended up 4-3 (which easily could have been better - lost the die roll against UG Infect, which killed me on T2. Sometimes they're just faster). I didn't take very good notes during that, but I'll try to come up with something there as well.

    Overall - I love the maindeck. It's insane. It has so much play, and can get around most if not all non-Leyline/RIP/Surgical/Extirpate grave hate with relative ease (i.e. Deathrite Shaman at this point). It goes infinite relatively easily as well, as I found out in one of my matches against elves... Only thing I wish I could fit in are Dazes (which I considered cutting Careful Study for - but no testing to find out if that is ok).

    The sideboard, however... still needs work. The Show and Tell plan is fine - it basically transforms into Count Chocula (shoutout to phazonmuant). However... it's too weak to many of the same things that the maindeck is. Clique still gets you, as does boatloads of counterspells. And Surgical is awful if they hit Show and Tell.

    I think if I were to continue with this (which I will... later. Setting this deck aside for a while) - I'd look for a more dramatic transformation out of the sideboard. My other idea that I decided not to run due to little testing was:


    4 Rest in Peace
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Flusterstorm


    Honestly, that may have been better. It attacks from a completely different angle, and they will have already boarded out their Abrupt Decays. I heard 2nd hand from Richard Cheese that Koby had alluded to running Painter/Grindstone out of the board. Similar idea. Blank their graveyard hate, blank their Show and Tell hate (if they next level you), blank their storm hate, blank their Pithing Needle on Griselbrand, and maybe get some free wins from the RIP/Helm decks that are already out there. The manabase, however, would need a bit of tweaking, I think to make sure that you could reliably have access to W on the board.

    Anyway - that's my summary... more later. Let me know if you have any questions about the list or card choices (since some of them are obviously wacky).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  10. #110

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @.dk Sorry to hear the deck didn't perform optimally.

    I've had a bit more success with it on the addition of Search Warrant, so I was really surprised to see your list already running a better card: Children of Korlis. I found with Search Warrant I would never fizzle and would always draw my deck, the problem was the mana was extremely tight because blue/white only came from the petals/mox.

    Also, I've played around 10 matches against top tier control decks, and have smashed them. You really need to run maindeck daze, its the best disruption the deck can have, along with Force out of the side. That, combined with our mana advantage and multiple reanimate effects overwhelms them.

    Sideboard is definitely a tough call.

    @Bob

    I haven't played with the UBr list yet. As to your list with LED, you have to ask yourself, why not just play TES at that point?
    I am going to replace search warrant with children and test that.
    Last edited by Wess; 01-07-2013 at 11:43 PM.

  11. #111
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Wess View Post
    @Bob

    I haven't played with the UBr list yet. As to your list with LED, you have to ask yourself, why not just play TES at that point?
    I asked myself the same question, but then again... Griselbrand.

  12. #112
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Ehh, I think if you're running LEDs you probably should be on TES. We're relying on a resource that is extremely vulnerable (graveyard) already. Going all in with LED just makes you worse to counters and random grave hate.

    But that's my take...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  13. #113
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Yeah i know. It was purely aesthetical to go this way.

  14. #114
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobmans View Post
    Yeah i know. It was purely aesthetical to go this way.
    I like the honesty. Storming out off Griselbrand just gives you a warm feeling inside. That being said, I'm still leaning more towards Emrakul for a win. This is my current list:


    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Careful Study
    4 Entomb
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    2 Swamp
    4 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Shallow Grave
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    SB: 4 Show and Tell
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm


    So you don't have to break out diff, I've essentially gone down to 13 land, switched to 6 discard that can self-target, up to 3 Emrakul, and the full 8 reanimation effects, with a board of protection and Show and Tell. I think the UBw version is probably best at the moment, but I think .dk is doing a great job developing that, so I'm focusing on UB.

    Right now it seems like Surgical Extraction is taking a backseat to Deathrite and Rest In Peace, and single shot stuff like Spellbomb and Crypt, so I don't feel it's necessary to completely abandon the reanimation plan postboard. I did speak to Koby a bit at the event, and he suggested Painter/Grindstone. I haven't messed with it much, but it doesn't seem like a bad plan if you're avoiding the graveyard entirely. It's compact and cost-efficient, and it probably isn't a big deal to splash red for a bunch of red blasts in the board. I guess the question is whether it's worth making the manabase worse at all in the main deck just to enable a secondary sideboard plan.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  15. #115
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I think if the Painter plan were to be included in the SB, a few City of Traitors could be used to help ramp up that plan. With Dark Rituals, it's easy as turn 2 -- Dark Ritual, Painter, Grindstone, City of Traitors, activate. BOOM Turn 2 kill. (ya ya 5 specific cards in hand magical xmasland blah blah) They maindeck has the streamline to take advantage of such openings, and the cantrips provide the necessary dig to make it work too. It conveniently dodges all Flusterstorm and some Spell Pierce interactions too, which isn't to be dismissed.

    For a combo deck manabase, you can probably swap an Island and a Swamp for their red dual equivalents and manage just fine. With enough fetchlands, it won't matter, and assuming you're able to combo doesn't effect it.

    @Richard Cheese
    Your list is just a faster version of Reanimator at this point, but lacks staying power due to the reanimation spells. Does this improve or worsen compared to the Tendrils combo kill via Griselbrand?
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  16. #116
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    I think if the Painter plan were to be included in the SB, a few City of Traitors could be used to help ramp up that plan. With Dark Rituals, it's easy as turn 2 -- Dark Ritual, Painter, Grindstone, City of Traitors, activate. BOOM Turn 2 kill. (ya ya 5 specific cards in hand magical xmasland blah blah) They maindeck has the streamline to take advantage of such openings, and the cantrips provide the necessary dig to make it work too. It conveniently dodges all Flusterstorm and some Spell Pierce interactions too, which isn't to be dismissed.

    For a combo deck manabase, you can probably swap an Island and a Swamp for their red dual equivalents and manage just fine. With enough fetchlands, it won't matter, and assuming you're able to combo doesn't effect it.

    @Richard Cheese
    Your list is just a faster version of Reanimator at this point, but lacks staying power due to the reanimation spells. Does this improve or worsen compared to the Tendrils combo kill via Griselbrand?
    I still go for the combo kill, reanimate Griselbrand, draw a bunch, find an Entomb or Emrakul + pitch spell + reanimation, swing for 22. I think both kill conditions have their merits. Using Emrakul means you need 1 less mana, and you have built-in tutors in the form of Entombs. It also lets you just grab Emrakul and swing if they have some troublesome permanents or have dropped under 15 from Bob, Thoughtseize, etc., and gives you much better odds with Show and Tell postboard. On the downside, you're pretty cold to Karakas, and it's fundamentally 7 less cards because you need to "go off" before attacking. Like other versions, you usually end up in a pretty good spot to try again the next turn, but 7 cards is a lot of cards.

    With Tendrils, you get something that's harder to fight on the stack, 7 more cards, and another lifegain outlet so you can theoretically chain into more Griselbrand activations if your storm count is too low. The downside is that we don't really have space for tons of rituals like TES or AnT, so the extra mana can be important, and you either have to run several copies or some way to find it like Children of Korlis or Diabolic Intent or something. It also, at least to me, feels like more of a dead card pre-combo. Whereas we already have this pitch/reanimate framework for Griselbrand that works with Emrakul to clear the board or just go for the kill, Tendrils without Griselbrand usually just buys you a couple turns at best.

    We've also looked at conflagrate a bit as the kill condition. It has the potential to basically combine the best of both worlds and let you kill post-combat for the extra cards, but you can still grab it with Entomb. The downside, obviously, is the damn cost. I guess if you were trying to rock Painter/Grindstone postboard, you could take the list above, and drop two basics for Volcanic and Badlands like you said, then -2 or 3 Emrakul and -1/2 Goryo's Vengeance for some number of Conflagrate and possibly Rite of Flame or even Mox Diamond. I don't think I would bother with Tombs/Cities in the board though. One thing we've noticed about Show and Tell is that you get a lot more fragile postboard, and Surgical/Extirpate can still be terrible. I would probably run 4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 blasts, and probably either 3 Flusterstorm or Tormod's Crypt, depending on how many copies of Emrakul I think are running around. Then again, I'm not all that good at this game, just seems right in my head.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  17. #117
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    It's awesome that you guys are continuing to develop this deck, and I like the lists that have been posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    I think if the Painter plan were to be included in the SB, a few City of Traitors could be used to help ramp up that plan. With Dark Rituals, it's easy as turn 2 -- Dark Ritual, Painter, Grindstone, City of Traitors, activate. BOOM Turn 2 kill. (ya ya 5 specific cards in hand magical xmasland blah blah) They maindeck has the streamline to take advantage of such openings, and the cantrips provide the necessary dig to make it work too. It conveniently dodges all Flusterstorm and some Spell Pierce interactions too, which isn't to be dismissed.

    For a combo deck manabase, you can probably swap an Island and a Swamp for their red dual equivalents and manage just fine. With enough fetchlands, it won't matter, and assuming you're able to combo doesn't effect it.

    @Richard Cheese
    Your list is just a faster version of Reanimator at this point, but lacks staying power due to the reanimation spells. Does this improve or worsen compared to the Tendrils combo kill via Griselbrand?
    Re: sol lands, in a deck with Dark Ritual I'm not really a fan. The problem is that none of the spells you want to play pre-board have lots of colorless mana so the lands are slower and don't add to storm maindeck. Also, a transformative board plan should be as compact as possible because Pithing Needle, counterspells, and discard all are relevant cards to slog through with both combos, so you still want to play some amount of anti-hate.
    The painter-grindstone combo is a solid suggestion, but it seems like it should be possible to simply fight through the hate at least as well. Instead of devoting the board to a transformational plan, how horrible is it to just have a pile of Pithing Needles and Echoing Truths and a couple Show and Tells?


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
    So you don't have to break out diff, I've essentially gone down to 13 land, switched to 6 discard that can self-target, up to 3 Emrakul, and the full 8 reanimation effects, with a board of protection and Show and Tell. I think the UBw version is probably best at the moment, but I think .dk is doing a great job developing that, so I'm focusing on UB.
    Props for being willing to look outside the box for what this deck wants to do, but I honestly think that the Next-Level Reanimator lists are better at doing what you're trying to do. Dark Ritual helps speed up game 1, but the fundamental problem with the deck is more consistency in its 2-card combo than speed. Game 2, the Dark Rituals in your list don't do anything to go faster or through hate, but the land base is predicated on having extra mana sources. Comparatively, the NLR lists have more protection in the form of Daze and Force, but are still able to have disgustingly fast starts with Petals.

    .dk:
    Your list looks really sweet. Did it feel like it was able to play through hate? Did you feel light on disruption? How was the Mox Diamond?

  18. #118
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Your list looks really sweet. Did it feel like it was able to play through hate? Did you feel light on disruption? How was the Mox Diamond?
    Thanks! In general, yes most hate was very easy to play through. Deathrite Shaman and most targeted graveyard stuff. I "got got" by Faerie Macabre once in the Legacy Redux due to me completely forgetting it was even a card though... Fun story from playing against 12 post in the Redux event:

    My hand contains 2 Entombs, and 2 reanimation spells. I know that he has 2 crop rotations in his hand from an earlier Thoguhtseize - so he has the potential to fetch Bojuka Bog once. I see one trop and a vesuva untapped, so I think I'm golden. I entomb for GB - resolves. Shallow Grave - Crop Rotation in response - Goryo's Vengeance in response - crack Vesuva that was copying one of my fetches for another Green source (I had completely forgotten it was copying a fetch - thought it was colorless, so that was my first mistake) and then Crop Rotation in response. So, stack is:

    Crop Rotation
    Goryo's Vengeance
    Crop Rotation
    Shallow Grave

    I ended up playing this incorrectly, but apparently it wouldn't have mattered. Should have let the top Crop Rotation resolve for Bojuka Bog, let Vengeance fizzle, let the second crop rotation resolve for whatever, and then Entomb for Griselbrand again. I failed to actually do that - but apparently wouldn't have mattered as he had a blue up and a Flusterstorm in hand. But in general, it seems pretty easy to play around most hate. Just need to know how.

    And an interaction I hadn't actually caught until Monday after the event - if someone Surgicals you (SnT, Griselbrand, whatever), you can Entomb for Emrakul in response to make it fizzle, which is pretty cool. It's possible that leaving Entomb in along with the SnT plan is actually correct for this, considering how weak that plan is to Surgical. Still does nothing about Extirpate, but nothing does... Understanding that interaction might make the SnT sideboard plan more feasible than I thought as well.

    Disruption... yes, it feels light. I really wish I could run Daze as well, but I don't feel like there is enough room in the maindeck. The only thing I can think of would be to cut the Careful Studies for Dazes, but I'm pretty sure that's a bad idea. It's very possible that cutting them for 3 Cabal Therapies is correct though - they can still function as combo pieces then to discard a creature from your hand, and also interacts with Dark Ritual better than Careful Study. I would probably be trying that configuration out next if I were going to tweak anything.

    The singleton Mox Diamond was amazing all weekend. Pretty much insane. It fixed mana early on to cast Ponders, ditched extra lands to accelerate, was a non-wastelandable rainbow land, and also functioned beautifully as the 5th Lotus Petal to cast Children of Korlis post reanimation (the original reason it was included). Especially if you're running 15 land like my list, I don't think I would leave home without it. If you're not splashing though, or running less land, it's probably not a great idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  19. #119
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    It's awesome that you guys are continuing to develop this deck, and I like the lists that have been posted.
    Props for being willing to look outside the box for what this deck wants to do, but I honestly think that the Next-Level Reanimator lists are better at doing what you're trying to do. Dark Ritual helps speed up game 1, but the fundamental problem with the deck is more consistency in its 2-card combo than speed. Game 2, the Dark Rituals in your list don't do anything to go faster or through hate, but the land base is predicated on having extra mana sources. Comparatively, the NLR lists have more protection in the form of Daze and Force, but are still able to have disgustingly fast starts with Petals.
    Totally disagree. What this deck wants to do is reanimate Griselbrand and win that same turn. Because Griselbrand's effectiveness as a draw engine diminishes rapidly as the game progresses (in the majority of matchups), it's necessary to try and do this as early in the game as possible. For that purpose alone, Ritual is indispensable. Postboard, it really helps a 13-land deck cast a crucial 3-mana spell, and helps you protect it by providing extra mana for discard spells or to play around taxing counters like Daze. In my build, I also don't need to pull all the reanimation effects postboard, so it allows me to combo off early if presented with the opportunity.

    I personally don't like NLR because it doesn't seem to have a clearly defined goal, and is just stuck somewhere between Reanimator and Combo. Flashing a Jin in EoT to Mind Twist someone is cute, but it's not worth burning an Entomb or pitch spell and a reanimation spell for. Entomb is probably the most important card in the deck because there are no good alternatives to it, so wasting one to get rid of counters, when it's the spell you really want to resolve in the first place, just doesn't make sense. I get that running more creatures makes Careful Study better, but it seems like the lists I'm seeing in that thread are cutting some number of CS, and don't run discard that can double as a pitch outlet either, so I just can't see wasting two critical spells where targeted discard would probably work just as well. Maybe I'm missing something because I just don't understand what that deck offers either in terms of consistency or speed besides a small counter suite. I tested running counters over discard in my UB list, and I'm pretty positive that in this archetype, the extra utility of being able to bin your own creature outweighs the downsides of discard vs. counters.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  20. #120

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Just 3-1'd a DE, the list will be up tommorow, so won't write it out. Should/could have been 4-0, but in the last match, I drew 23 cards and couldn't find a mana source for the win , almost mathematically impossible, but, oh well, that's magic.

    On the other hand, I drew the absolute turn 0/1 Godhand in my 2nd match of: Entomb, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Shallow Grave, Thoughtseize, Daze, Underground Sea.
    Cast Lotus Petal--->Thoughtseize, take FOW--->play land--->Dark Ritual--->Entomb Gris--->Shallow Grave with Daze backup

    Quick Summary: Beat 2 counterbalance decks, then a green sun hate bear deck. Lost to the easy matchup of Belcher in the 4th round. 1st game to the impossible math, the 2nd because I had a godhand and figured to combo off on Turn 1 before he got to play a turn, Well, should have waited as I got surgical extracted, and forgot to board in my Emrakul. I kept playing thinking I had it in my deck, entomb'd with a shallow grave in hand and the mana to cast it, but no Emrakul....really, my bad.

    Children of Korlis is the real deal, out of 14 games I've played with it, the final match today is the only time I've ever fizzled. Also, IMO, the deck NEEDS to maindeck 3-4 daze to be competitive.

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