[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Acclimation]

Since apparently Canadian Threshold is a scary deck for us, I'm thinking that adding some Orim's Chant to the sideboard might be worthwhile, potentially dropping 2 Massacre or the 3rd Surgical and Needle for 2 Chant.

Assuming my/koby's BOM maindeck, in addition to dropping 3 Probe for 3 Silence, perhaps dropping the last Probe and a Reanimate for 2 Chant?

RUG is dependent on using Counterspells, and while hand disruption is good, getting a Silence through on our combo turn is just GG. With 6 Chant effects and 6 discard effects, we can protect our combo turn and potentially bait counterspells. If a chant gets through and we don't have the combo, at the very least we can crack fetches without fear of Stifle (care of Wasteland).

I've also considered running a basic Island in the sideboard (I've been playing with 14 cards for the last month, so I can just add it), and we can cut an Underground Sea versus wasteland/stifle decks. What I don't like about it, is that it can turn off potential t1 kills where all we need is an initial black source to combo (or a white source to silence).

These are the ideas I've had for trying to shore up the RUG match-up. Any other thoughts or criticisms?

[Koby]

That seems to be overkill IMO. It's a bad matchup, but not one that we should remove Probes for. Probes still help us determine if we can safely go off, even against RUG.

[Acclimation]

It's probably overkill, but I honestly feel confident against every other match-up except RUG, but even then I think I'm positive versus it the few times I got to test the matchup (against a friend who is actually good at Magic, not just random shitters).

I am reluctant to cut Probes, but I'm unsure as to what we can cut for Silence. I think Reanimate is a good option, since the life loss can be too severe, potentially Chrome Mox since we just need to get our combo resolved (but Mox helps pay taxing counters), and maybe a LDV.

We can't cut Shallow/Goryo, Entomb, Ponder, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, any lands, Lotus Petal, Cabal Therapy, Emrakul, Children, Griselbrand, or Thoughtseize.

Although... Would it be worth it to cut 1 Griselbrand? We need to leverage our Discard against RUG, so targeting ourselves seems less than optimal, and we can fit in protection without cutting cantrips or other useful spells. RUG doesn't seem to run much Extraction effects, but the list that just won has a singleton Grafdigger's Cage, so perhaps fitting in a bounce spell might be helpful- worst case scenario we have to bounce a Goyf or Delver.


Kind of just throwing ideas at the wall here, I don't think RUG is such a bad match-up that we just write it completely off.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What has you concerned, the sheer amount of counters it runs along with Stifle/Wastes? It's a terrible matchup, probably the worst there is as far as a reactive deck is concerned, but I think that Chants aren't the answer, but rather testing Defense Grid (or have you? I saw nothing of it, and it's playable turn one off of a land + Petal or Dark Rit with an Entomb to follow it's resolution). Also, Defense Grid doesn't make you have to stress your mana base's color alotments. Defense grid can be clunky with only 13-14 lands (I run 14), but it may just be a good choice in leu of Xantid Swarms, which I think is bad because of how slow it is and how bad the green splash really is.

I also don't run Reanimate. I've been watching and testing and I don't think it's a piece I will use, probably ever. I understand what it's for, but I think for me it's a poor choice.

-ABC

[Acclimation]

What has you concerned, the sheer amount of counters it runs along with Stifle/Wastes? It's a terrible matchup, probably the worst there is as far as a reactive deck is concerned, but I think that Chants aren't the answer, but rather testing Defense Grid (or have you? I saw nothing of it, and it's playable turn one off of a land + Petal or Dark Rit with an Entomb to follow it's resolution). Also, Defense Grid doesn't make you have to stress your mana base's color alotments. Defense grid can be clunky with only 13-14 lands (I run 14), but it may just be a good choice in leu of Xantid Swarms, which I think is bad because of how slow it is and how bad the green splash really is.

I also don't run Reanimate. I've been watching and testing and I don't think it's a piece I will use, probably ever. I understand what it's for, but I think for me it's a poor choice.

-ABC

I'm concerned with the fact that they cast spells when I'm trying to do stuff. This is a 1 man show- please sit in the corner and watch me play with myself- NO TOUCHING!

I forgot Defense Grid is a thing, I used to run it back when I was first learning DDFT, but ended up cutting it and just relying on a combination of Chants/Silences/Discard to force my combo through, which I had better results with. What I don't like about Grid is that it's countered by Snare and can delay us the turn we go off (say if we probe them and see only 1 counter, we can just silence/chant/discard to force the issue for 1 mana and then go off). At the same time, it makes them burn a counterspell, and if it resolves, we can easily work without much fear.

It might be good, but due to being away from my test group, I can't run it through the gauntlet.

Xantid Swarm is no good versus RUG, it just gets bolted. I believe Bryant Cook had an explanation on when to use Swarm in a TES thread or an article, can't remember which (probably both). Also, not a fan of the Green splash anyway, I ran it at an SCG, and placed 63rd with it. Reverent Silence is cool, but not that cool. Nor relevant in a Countertop light world.

[Richard Cheese]

RUG isn't a writeoff, but it's certainly one of the worst matchups. If you go back in this thread a bit, you'll see there was a time when we were running Silence/Chant main, and personally I don't think it's a terrible option as a meta choice if there's tons of tempo decks around. Both are going to have their situations where it's exactly what you need, and both are going to have situations where they're pretty useless. I guess the argument for Probe is that it works the same way in every matchup, and it's never really a dead card.

Also I haven't played Reanimate main in months. Don't miss it. Goldfished with friends this weekend and went off turn 1 or 2 something like 7 games in a row. I wish it liked me that much at real events.

[Koby]

Also I haven't played Reanimate main in months. Don't miss it. Goldfished with friends this weekend and went off turn 1 or 2 something like 7 games in a row. I wish it liked me that much at real events.

I have been testing with a single Reanimate in my main (mostly for Children recursion); and most of my easy wins vs RUG have been an early Entomb + Reanimate with enough mana for taxing counters or when the coast is clear via Silence / Probe face-check. I've won less often with Shallow Grave/Goryo's vs them.

[Richard Cheese]

I have been testing with a single Reanimate in my main (mostly for Children recursion); and most of my easy wins vs RUG have been an early Entomb + Reanimate with enough mana for taxing counters or when the coast is clear via Silence / Probe face-check. I've won less often with Shallow Grave/Goryo's vs them.

Do you tend to combo after that or just ride the 7/7 flyer to victory?

[Koby]

Do you tend to combo after that or just ride the 7/7 flyer to victory?

Usually just ride a 7/7 to victory. RUG can't beat the 7/7, the lifelink, or the card drawing. Hence why Reanimate as a card is so powerful from classic Reanimator vs RUG; also why a resolved Show & Tell is so powerful for both Sneak & Show and Reanimator.

[Richard Cheese]

Usually just ride a 7/7 to victory. RUG can't beat the 7/7, the lifelink, or the card drawing. Hence why Reanimate as a card is so powerful from classic Reanimator vs RUG; also why a resolved Show & Tell is so powerful for both Sneak & Show and Reanimator.

My problem with that is I can't reliably lucksack into my singleton Reanimate in specific matchups where it makes a difference. Whenever I play with it, it just ends up being icing on the cake mid-combo because reanimating children is slightly cheaper, but at that point it doesn't feel like it's affecting the outcome of the game. My list is geared towards being as redundant as possible, and so far it's been really consistent, which is nice when you have no luck.

[Acclimation]

Played in a small 8 man tournament today, went 2-1. Nothing special, went 2-1 versus EsperDeathblade, 1-2 versus Belcher (he won the dice roll), and 2-0 versus UB Tezzerator.

Things of note: Lost game 1 versus Deathblade by not drawing Entomb or a Discard (had Griselbrand in hand). Barely won game 2 by Tendrils for 14 and his Bob flipping another Bob for lethal. Tendrils keeps winning me games that I would not have won otherwise (I was at 3 life staring at Bob and Deathrite Shaman that game). I know some people don't like it, but I will continue to keep in mainboard. G3 I win after bouncing his Ethersworn canonist with Chain (only brought in one), then swinging with Emrakul for lethal.

I also had my streak of beating Belcher on the draw broken, kind of sad about that one, but it was bound to happen eventually.

Tezzerator was awkward in g2 because he opened with Chalice at 1 (I had an opener of fetch, petal, probe, ponder, ritual, goryo, serenity). I play land and pass, draw Griselbrand, discard it end of turn, and he plays another Chalice, this time at 0. I draw a fetch, drop Serenity, it gets countered. He plays Jace, I Goryo to swing and draw, hit another set of combo pieces and my second Serenity, and the second Serenity resolves. Next turn, I drop get out Emrakul for lethal.

So,

Tendrils still working out well.
Serenity is a great sideboard card.
Emrakul is cool.
Belcher match-up is a literal dice roll.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I love tendrils in here. In fact, it's the kicker that got me into the deck. It's more versatile in this list than I've ever seen it, and I love that it's more than just a win-con, but also the first (afaik) combo enabler to be part of the kill. I like it as much as I like Children of Korlis, I just don't get to use it as often as Children. I like it.

-ABC

[Acclimation]

I love tendrils in here. In fact, it's the kicker that got me into the deck. It's more versatile in this list than I've ever seen it, and I love that it's more than just a win-con, but also the first (afaik) combo enabler to be part of the kill. I like it as much as I like Children of Korlis, I just don't get to use it as often as Children. I like it.

-ABC

Tendrils has gotten me out of a lot of sticky situations:

Maindeck Energy Field and/or Rest in Peace
Not having the right pieces to power out Emrakul
Getting the remaining points of life if Emrakul+Griselbrand isn't enough
Doing a storm of 3 or 5 to gain some life to buy time against Burn
Sometimes having the right combination of cards to storm for a full 20 life because I didn't have the pieces for a regular combo kill.

As I've mentioned before, Tendrils makes up about 30-40% of my kills, and I feel that cutting it for anything else makes the deck less versatile in its plan of attack.

[Acclimation]

Jammed some games against RUG today/last night and ended up with a record of 7-2 overall.

Key cards: Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Silence

This should be obvious, but the games I got to open Probe>Therapy were games I usually won.

Looking at the sideboards of recent RUG decks, I see a one of Grafdigger's Cage, and maybe a Tormod's Crypt or a Surgical Extraction for GY hate, and then some number of Flusterstorm.

I feel as though we need to add in Chain of Vapor on the offchance they stick the Cage, but bringing in 3 Silence and 2 Chain feels like a lot, and I have a hard time cutting slots.

I don't want to cut more Probe then necessary, since getting a peek at their hand is too invaluable in this MU.

Reanimate could get cut, but the games that you Reanimate Griselbrand are amazing since they can't deal with a 7/7 flying lifelinker outside of 3 Bolts or a combination of Delver blocks and burn.

I could see LDV getting cut, but in those longer games in which you ravage each other with discard and counters, stacking our library can find us the exact cards we need to win.

Tendrils is another potential slot, since it can get Stifled, but as seen in my previous post, I'm loathe to cut Tendrils since it provides such a handy back up win con.

Chrome Mox was a slot that I tried, since we don't want to throw away more cards than necessary, but removing mana sources is risky versus a mana denial deck.

In the sideboard games, I tried -2 Probe, -1 Mox, -1 LDV, and -1 Tendrils, and went 1-1.

In last minute thoughts or suggestions (currently typing this in my hotel room at Indy)?

[kingsey]

Jammed some games against RUG today/last night and ended up with a record of 7-2 overall.

Key cards: Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Silence

This should be obvious, but the games I got to open Probe>Therapy were games I usually won.

Looking at the sideboards of recent RUG decks, I see a one of Grafdigger's Cage, and maybe a Tormod's Crypt or a Surgical Extraction for GY hate, and then some number of Flusterstorm.

I feel as though we need to add in Chain of Vapor on the offchance they stick the Cage, but bringing in 3 Silence and 2 Chain feels like a lot, and I have a hard time cutting slots.

I don't want to cut more Probe then necessary, since getting a peek at their hand is too invaluable in this MU.

Reanimate could get cut, but the games that you Reanimate Griselbrand are amazing since they can't deal with a 7/7 flying lifelinker outside of 3 Bolts or a combination of Delver blocks and burn.

I could see LDV getting cut, but in those longer games in which you ravage each other with discard and counters, stacking our library can find us the exact cards we need to win.

Tendrils is another potential slot, since it can get Stifled, but as seen in my previous post, I'm loathe to cut Tendrils since it provides such a handy back up win con.

Chrome Mox was a slot that I tried, since we don't want to throw away more cards than necessary, but removing mana sources is risky versus a mana denial deck.

In the sideboard games, I tried -2 Probe, -1 Mox, -1 LDV, and -1 Tendrils, and went 1-1.

In last minute thoughts or suggestions (currently typing this in my hotel room at Indy)?

I wouldn't cut tendrils as it gives you a mini boost to stay in game, or draw more cards to set up another combo. My teammate just build rug so i'll be doing some in depth testing shortly. I'll keep you in the loop.
Also how is everyones Death and taxes match up?

[Koby]

In last minute thoughts or suggestions (currently typing this in my hotel room at Indy)?

Try this:

-4 Probe -2 LDV
+3 Chain of Vapor (goodbye flipped Delver)
+3 Silence

Probe eats up life while not getting rid of the problem. Thoughtseize is effectively more useful at -2 life +info. The biggest hurdle is to make it to 3 mana from lands. At that point, you should be able to start baiting Silence into counters and just going for it. An early Delver is bad news. Same with Goyf. In this matchup I will usually to to discard their threat as it represents the best way for them to beat Tin Fins.

Additionally, they will likely bring in REB to counter cantrips. Removing 6 blue spells will make some of their cards dead vs the full combo. This isn't the case if they land a Relic, Crypt, or Cage.

Also how is everyones Death and taxes match up?

Watch out for RIP and try to discard/bounce Thalia. Stall until Massacre becomes live. Play reactively if you don't have the full combo on turn 1, to set up for a turn 2. Turn 3 may just be safer vs them, to enable extra land drops after Griselbrand connects.

[Acclimation]

Ended up going 1-3 in the Legacy portion of the invitational (went 3-1 in Standard, fuck that format).

Won every game 1, and then drew dead in every game except the round I won.

Chalking it up to variance though. Gonna play in some Legacy side events tomorrow and possibly the Open on Sunday.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Any thoughts on maybe slowing the list down by a turn or so to gain better records? I don't really have any ideas yet, but I'm thinking on it...I know this wasn't exactly a "helpful" post, but turn 1 is fast, and while I understand that more turns = more disruption from your opponent, I think 1 turn may be able to assist in a more probable win.

-ABC

EDIT::: Does Stifle stop the Sacrifice effect of Goryo's/Shallow Grave?

[entreri_fans]

yes, both of them could be counterd by stifle.

they are all delayed triggered abilities.

[Acclimation]

Played in 3 Legacy side events today, so here's the report(s):

Legacy Win a box 1:

Rd 1: Dredge (2-0)

Game 1: He wins the roll, dredges horribly and starts attacking with Stinkweed Imp and a Narcomoeba. I finally draw the missing piece and combo from 9 life.

-2 LDV -1 Silence -1 Swamp +3 Surgical +2 Chain

Game 2: He dredges horribly again, and I get a turn 3 kill. EZ.

Rd 2: Shardless Bug (2-0)

He wins the roll and ends up jamming a Shardless with Hymn off cascade. I therapy and thoughtseize most of his permission. Ended up combing off from 6 life winning with Tendrils (helps from Children)

-4 Probe -2 LDV +3 Silence +2 Needle +1 Chain

G2 he mulls to 5 and goes Wasteland, go. I blind therapy naming FoW and hit it, seeing a hand of two Shardless 2 abrupt decay. I cantrip and draw while he spins his wheels failing to find land, and I get there eventually.

Rd 3: Death and Taxes. (2-0)

This guy and I have a mutual friend, so we agreed to split the box and play the matches for the Mythic Madness envelope.

g1: Won the roll, t1 win. He's never seen tinfins before.

-1 Silence -3 Probe +2 Massacre +1 Pithing Needle +1 Chain

g2: He plays Relic t1 and passes, I lead off with Needle. From my notes it looks like I got him on t3 with Tendrils.

Envelope had a Vengevine, I ended up pulling some sweet stuff from my packs.

Win a Box 2:

RBUg Delver/YoungPyromancer/Bob/Deathrite Shaman deck (0-2)

My notes are pretty shitty here, but he had the right amount of Disruption + clock that I couldn't get through. I lost the dice roll and got Probe>Therapied taking Entomb, and it just went downhill with dead draws. I sideboarded in Silence and Surgical, dropping Probe and LDV. Since these win a boxes are single elimination, I'm out of this one.

Legacy Open Trial (4-0)

I took better notes for these games

rd 1: Jund. (2-0)

Lost roll

g1 he keeps and okay hand and plays a Thoughtseize, taking Entomb. I probe him, seeing Hymn, DRS, Goyf, and Lily, Therapy naming DRS. Next turn I rip Entomb and get him. He has only seen Tinfins once and is unsure of himself.

-1 Silence, -3 Probe -2 LDV +3 Needle +2 Surgical +1 Chain

g2: I keep the nuts, and he t1 duresses me and takes my Entomb. I Surgical Duress, seeing wasteland, bolt, reb, pyroblast, and bob in hand, seeing extirpate, surgical, and nihil spellbomb in his library. I end up drawing my combo pieces after 2 fetches and get 2 Children activations.

rd 2: Maverick 2-1

lost roll

g1 I can't find a second land and entomb to save my life, and with 2 turns before I'm dead draw entomb (still no second land), cast it eot for griselbrand, and end up not drawing a second mana source to cast reanimation.

He assumes I'm reanimator. -1 Silence -4 Probe +2 Massacre +2 Chain +1 Needle

G2: I t1 thoughtseize and see DRS, KotR x2, Oring, Horizon canopy, and verdant catacomb (he mulled). I take DRS and get him on t2.

g3: Risky keep, entomb, chrome mox, shallow grave, ponder, 3 land. He plays land, gsz for dryad arbor and passes. I draw a Lotus petal and kill him t1.

rd3: Jund (2-0)

I won the roll.

g1 I get a solid t2 kill hand (no dark ritual, but entomb+reanimation). I land and pass, he fetches, DRS and passes. I probe him and see Goyf, BBE, Lily, Bob, and forest. I get there on t2. This dude has also never seen Tinfins, only heard about it.

g2: I get the turn 1. Sideboard is the same as earlier.

Rd4: Aluren. He wants to split. I think about it, and decide to not do so. (spoiler:2-0)

g1:I won the roll I didn't realize he had a Fow, but end up LDVing up the countered piece.

+3 Silence +1 Chain, not sure what I pulled out.

g2: I stick an Entomb, he Therapies me next turn naming Shallow Grave, misses, plays Dreamstalker and flashes back the Therapy. He failed to write my hand down (I had LDV and Goryo), and says "akroma's vengeance" after bumbling around his words. I call a judge since my opponent was trying to describe the card. Judge ends up letting him get my Goryo, and I LDV up the kill next turn. #Dreamcrusher

Opted to get packs over the voucher for an Open, since I can't responsibly stay all day for the Legacy Open due to having lots of hw and 2 tests on Monday.

One of my friends that I'm rooming with is friends with Caleb Durward, and apparently Durward is wanting to play his Stronghold Gambit list if he can get Shallow Graves, which I said I could loan to him. We discuss his list a bit, and I tell him I'll follow him around and watch his games to see the list in action, since I don't want to be a typical internet shitter that shoots down ideas without testing/seeing it played.

So, 7-1 in Legacy today, but I saw a lot of RUG and UWR delver on the floor, so I'm not too sad that I'm skipping out on the Open. I am very curious to see the Stronghold Gambit list played.