[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Pomegrant]

Some of the Grixis decks play Surgical as their graveyard hate but it's mostly the variants that want to play Snapcaster Mages. I think it's reasonable to play around to an extent. You can't just sit there forever trying to beat it. Being aware of it though is important as you can try to bait them into using it before they want to but that's basically the best you can do.

[.dk]

Right - my reply was a bit tongue in cheek. Surgical is a rough one to play around - it's one of those where you just need the read on them. This hand CAN play around surgical by using Therapy, but the likelihood of them having that over a counterspell may not be high? Who knows... as you said, did you see snapcaster game 1? Was it a snap keep 7 from them or did they debate? All kinds of extra information to be able to put the read on without access to Gitaxian Probe.

That said, I'd have a hard time playing "safe" with this deck when you have a T2 protected kill around most disruption with this deck. Make them have the answer. I suppose you have a pseudo answer to it in your hand already to at least not get totally blown out and allow yourself to keep playing: you have the second entomb. In the worst case, if they surgical your Griselbrand in response to Goryo's Vengeace, you COULD entomb for Emrakul to shuffle your graveyard back in to at least not lose access to your Griselbrands for the rest of the game. You're pretty crippled at that point - but not totally shot. Maybe you could draw out of it and hope that they kept a disruptive hand without a lot of pressure.

[Damaku]

...Surgical is a rough one to play around...

Remember the days of the Beast?


Totally different thing:
In the sideboard of my reanimator I play:


My Onion time is over, but I remember facing a lot of RIP back then. Have you guys condidered using it as a kind of one of? It is the best way to win!

[Richard Cheese]

Some of the Grixis decks play Surgical as their graveyard hate but it's mostly the variants that want to play Snapcaster Mages. I think it's reasonable to play around to an extent. You can't just sit there forever trying to beat it. Being aware of it though is important as you can try to bait them into using it before they want to but that's basically the best you can do.

Might be seeing it more often since Bob Huang's Legacy Champs list had 2 in the board, even without Snapcaster. Stupid Wizards and their recent obsession with super accessible grave hate.

@Damaku - I tried Helm (and my own RIP) in a few locals when RiP/Helm Miracles was big and it felt terrible. The cost makes it really hard to cast without Ritual/Petal/Mox, which makes it really hard to protect. You're almost always going to be up against additional counters, and it's slow enough that they get to establish a board (like Counterbalance/Top) and sculpt their hand. I'd much rather be on Doomsday since it's cheaper and doesn't really care about the yard either.

[Pomegrant]

Surgical Extraction is aggressive, but I think Grafdigger's Cage is a worse offender. Card is just too good.

.dk, I agree with all that you said. That's the best you can do in a pretty bad situation. I think my Burning Wish variations on the deck has a little more action against getting Griselbrands surgicaled but still sucks a lot.

[.dk]

Surgical Extraction is aggressive, but I think Grafdigger's Cage is a worse offender. Card is just too good.

.dk, I agree with all that you said. That's the best you can do in a pretty bad situation. I think my Burning Wish variations on the deck has a little more action against getting Griselbrands surgicaled but still sucks a lot.

Yeah, I agree with that too, as you have an alternate way out of a terrible situation. Empty may not be amazing all the time, but it sure beats having to swing for 20 with Children of Korlis or whatever.

[meffeo]

Only one Option here:

Best post in ages.

[Pomegrant]

Yeah, I agree with that too, as you have an alternate way out of a terrible situation. Empty may not be amazing all the time, but it sure beats having to swing for 20 with Children of Korlis or whatever.

Well, I think once they surgical your Griselbrand the best thing to do is try to Emrakul their resources away, and with Burning Wish I'm able to get the last points through. But I think the pure UB version probably has the best chance to attempt to play 2 shallow graves/goryo's vengeance over the top of a surgical though.

[Koby]

Well, I think once they surgical your Griselbrand the best thing to do is try to Emrakul their resources away, and with Burning Wish I'm able to get the last points through. But I think the pure UB version probably has the best chance to attempt to play 2 shallow graves/goryo's vengeance over the top of a surgical though.

Then again, that's why this is still a Storm deck after Griselbrand is gone. It's tough, but with enough dig you can get there. Play to survive to draw lethal Tendrils.

As to "How to play this deck?": try to keep track the ridiculous things you can do with the deck. If your list is >10, then you're not even close.

[Kathal]

Just to be clear, how ridiculous this deck can be, I once build a Pile with LDV with only 4 cards in hand (after both Grisel and Emmi got exiled) which allowed me to kill the opponent from 19 life via Tendrils.

In the near future I will be able to get some games in, I will test some "unusual" stuff like Borbor, DP, Labman, Rain of Filth,...

Greetings,
Kathal

[Darkenslight]

Just to be clear, how ridiculous this deck can be, I once build a Pile with LDV with only 4 cards in hand (after both Grisel and Emmi got exiled) which allowed me to kill the opponent from 19 life via Tendrils.

In the near future I will be able to get some games in, I will test some "unusual" stuff like Borbor, DP, Labman, Rain of Filth,...

Greetings,
Kathal

Surely you mean Big Bad Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? "Yeah, I'm gonna exile a full third of your deck this turn. And next turn. Oh, you're already down to five cards in your library? Whoops."

Also, Angry Bobby Gormless seems like a legitimate alt win-con, in the unlikely event that you get your Emmys exiled.

[KSC]

I've been goldfishing an all proxy/Sharpie deck for 3 weeks while slowly putting together an actual deck of cards. I'm 70/75, atm, and plan on bringing my pile to the LGS on Thurs night. Before I go public and embarrass myself, however, I had a couple of questions, if anyone would be so kind?

Some of these are going to be really dumb, but I'm totally rusty with stack/priority rules and haven't played against some of these newer decks/cards before, so I appologize in advance, I just want to confirm 100%.

-If my opp is playing DRS and has the mana to remove my Gris. They are going to do so when I attempt to reanimate it in response, yes? Is it basically going to be Mexican Standoff at that point until I find and can cast a 2nd Reanimate spell?

-Can I bait someone into DRSing my Gris by casting Shallow Grave > they attempt exile > I entomb for another Gris in response? This would still get me the second Gris, correct?

-I completely forgot how sacrifing creatures worked! Will STP in responce to saccing a CoK still gain me the life I lost during the turn, or will I just get the 1 life from STP?

-If my opp attempts to remove Gris, I can draw 7 in response, I know, but can I activate the ability a second time before he dies or just the once?

-Entombing for Emrakul can stop a Surgical Extraction?

-If going for the Emrakul hardcast plan B, can draw my last card if there are exactly 7 in my Library, so long as I replace at least one before taking my next turn?

I appreciate the help!

[Kathal]

Surely you mean Big Bad Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger? "Yeah, I'm gonna exile a full third of your deck this turn. And next turn. Oh, you're already down to five cards in your library? Whoops."

Also, Angry Bobby Gormless seems like a legitimate alt win-con, in the unlikely event that you get your Emmys exiled.

XD

The real reason, why I want to play Borbor is because of the instant win. Although not as important as in Modern it still brings some nice utility with it.

I've been goldfishing an all proxy/Sharpie deck for 3 weeks while slowly putting together an actual deck of cards. I'm 70/75, atm, and plan on bringing my pile to the LGS on Thurs night. Before I go public and embarrass myself, however, I had a couple of questions, if anyone would be so kind?

Some of these are going to be really dumb, but I'm totally rusty with stack/priority rules and haven't played against some of these newer decks/cards before, so I appologize in advance, I just want to confirm 100%.

-If my opp is playing DRS and has the mana to remove my Gris. They are going to do so when I attempt to reanimate it in response, yes? Is it basically going to be Mexican Standoff at that point until I find and can cast a 2nd Reanimate spell?

-Can I bait someone into DRSing my Gris by casting Shallow Grave > they attempt exile > I entomb for another Gris in response? This would still get me the second Gris, correct?

-I completely forgot how sacrifing creatures worked! Will STP in responce to saccing a CoK still gain me the life I lost during the turn, or will I just get the 1 life from STP?

-If my opp attempts to remove Gris, I can draw 7 in response, I know, but can I activate the ability a second time before he dies or just the once?

-Entombing for Emrakul can stop a Surgical Extraction?

-If going for the Emrakul hardcast plan B, can draw my last card if there are exactly 7 in my Library, so long as I replace at least one before taking my next turn?

I appreciate the help!

1)Basically, yes. However, many opponents are rather greedy with their DRS, so 1 Reanimate spell might be enough.

2)Jep. They exile the first Grisel, you Entomb for another one (while Shallow Grave is on the stack) and than Shallow Grave will grab you your Griselbrand.

3)When you are activating an ability, you have to pay all forms of costs. Afterwards, the ability enters the stack. So, if you want to activate Children, you have to sacrifice it (cause it is a cost). At that point, Children can't be targeted via STP, since it is in the graveyard. Even if he targets Children before you sac it, you can still sac it in response to it. --> Whatever your opponent is doing with his STP, you will always be able to activate Children.

4)Every time a spell or ability resolves (so it effect happens) both players get priority again (first the active player, than the non active player). So, after you activated Griselbrand and you drew 7 cards, both, you and your opponent gets priority. Hence, you can activate Griselbrand again (or a third time, if you have the life).

5)As long as you do it in response to the Surgical, it works. With this way you can also save an Grisel from DRS

6)Don't understand this one. But if you mean, that you draw the last 7 cards in your library, you can use Emmi to shuffle your graveyard back in your deck. If you have no cards left in the bib and you hardcast Emmi, you will lose at your next draw step, since you would draw a card, while having no cards left in your library.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: And burst some onions :D

[Richard Cheese]

Then again, that's why this is still a Storm deck after Griselbrand is gone. It's tough, but with enough dig you can get there. Play to survive to draw lethal Tendrils.

As to "How to play this deck?": try to keep track the ridiculous things you can do with the deck. If your list is >10, then you're not even close.

Often times a swing with Emrakul can finish someone off between fetches/Force/Surgical. You really haven't lived until someone scoops to a resolved Children of Korlis though.

[KSC]

Perfect! Thanks, Kathal. Yeah, the last one was a bit confusing, sorry. I get, though.

1)Basically, yes. However, many opponents are rather greedy with their DRS, so 1 Reanimate spell might be enough.

Ah, so the better player will wait for me to make a move, but the skitish might try to get Gris out ASAP and then I can SG/GV in response?

PS: And burst some onions :D

Ha! I'm gonna!

[KaiSchafroth]

Often times a swing with Emrakul can finish someone off between fetches/Force/Surgical. You really haven't lived until someone scoops to a resolved Children of Korlis though.

CoK beatdowns - a dream I want to live

[Kathal]

Perfect! Thanks, Kathal. Yeah, the last one was a bit confusing, sorry. I get, though.

Ah, so the better player will wait for me to make a move, but the skitish might try to get Gris out ASAP and then I can SG/GV in response?

Ha! I'm gonna!

Yeah, many people mistake us for Reanimator, so they will use their DRS at our EOT, which opens them up for a SG/GV. If you are not playing Borbor/Quicken, you can't win from here, but drawing a bunch of cards should be enough to win next turn. Remember, since they "fixed" the wording of both SG and GV a while ago, if you reanimate a Grisel in an Endstep, it won't get exiled. So, if you reanimate Grisel in your endstep (since our opponent is greedy), you can pass the turn and than draw a bunch of cards. You could even block something, if you would want to.

CoK beatdowns - a dream I want to live

My most favourite moment so far: Win against Omnitell, when he goes S&T into Omniscience on turn 2, into cast Emmi (he has a second in hand, so he could "loop" them) and you have your lonely Griselbrand out there, just to kill them in response to the Timewalk trigger via chained Griselbrand draws + a Borbor and a whole bunch of lands. To make it even better, I duressed him on turn 1, and took his Dig instead of his S&T since I wanted to use it as a cheatspell for my Grissel

Edit says: so far I like Borbor, but I need to test him more, because it feels like, he is just to cute.

Greetings,
Kathal

[KSC]

Yeah, many people mistake us for Reanimator, so they will use their DRS at our EOT, which opens them up for a SG/GV. If you are not playing Borbor/Quicken, you can't win from here, but drawing a bunch of cards should be enough to win next turn. Remember, since they "fixed" the wording of both SG and GV a while ago, if you reanimate a Grisel in an Endstep, it won't get exiled. So, if you reanimate Grisel in your endstep (since our opponent is greedy), you can pass the turn and than draw a bunch of cards. You could even block something, if you would want to.




My most favourite moment so far: Win against Omnitell, when he goes S&T into Omniscience on turn 2, into cast Emmi (he has a second in hand, so he could "loop" them) and you have your lonely Griselbrand out there, just to kill them in response to the Timewalk trigger via chained Griselbrand draws + a Borbor and a whole bunch of lands. To make it even better, I duressed him on turn 1, and took his Dig instead of his S&T since I wanted to use it as a cheatspell for my Grissel

Edit says: so far I like Borbor, but I need to test him more, because it feels like, he is just to cute.

Greetings,
Kathal

Waitaminute, I didn't know about about this endstep thing! DRS shenanagins asides, I could SG/GV a creature during any players endstep and then keep him for the remainder of the game? That changes a lot!

So, speaking of EOTs, I tend to keep my combo pieces in hand until I have my reanimate spell, then I'll bin my critter and attempt to go off on that turn. I'll EOT Entomb on their T1 to reanimate on my T2 if I draw all the combo pieces, but no mana excel, but otherwise I won't do much during their EOT excpet BS/Fetch, ect. Maybe I'm being overly cautious of GY hate?

And Borbor does look like a lot fun, actually! Maybe it's considered win morish, but I like the idea of not having chucking lands at an unsuspecting opp!

edit: 10/4/2004 Only exiles the creature if the creature is still on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step.

I see. So the creature is still going to be exiled at the beginning of the next endstep he's in play for then? You don't just keep it?

[Kathal]

Waitaminute, I didn't know about about this endstep thing! DRS shenanagins asides, I could SG/GV a creature during any players endstep and then keep him for the remainder of the game? That changes a lot!

So, speaking of EOTs, I tend to keep my combo pieces in hand until I have my reanimate spell, then I'll bin my critter and attempt to go off on that turn. I'll EOT Entomb on their T1 to reanimate on my T2 if I draw all the combo pieces, but no mana excel, but otherwise I won't do much during their EOT excpet BS/Fetch, ect. Maybe I'm being overly cautious of GY hate?

And Borbor does look like a lot fun, actually! Maybe it's considered win morish, but I like the idea of not having chucking lands at an unsuspecting opp!

edit: 10/4/2004 Only exiles the creature if the creature is still on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step.

I see. So the creature is still going to be exiled at the beginning of the next endstep he's in play for then? You don't just keep it?

Sadly, you can't keep the reanimated creature for ever. SG/GV will trigger again in the next end step, so you will lose the creature at the begin of the next end step.

Greetings,
Kathal

[KSC]

Great to know, regardless! I'm sure there are multiple benefits to using that strategy that I would have been unaware of. Thanks!