[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

Doomsday!! ;-p

- counterspells: Discard/bait with either Doomsday or TinFins, depending on the rest of the MU.
- Karakas / Top: Doomsay into lethal Tendrill's (or a DD pile containing Needle + SI+Emrakul)
- RiP / Top / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: Doomsday into lethal Tendrill's

On a serious note. Deluting the deck has always been a problem with sideboarding a reactive plan into TinFins. But you should only grab the most important cards and try to avoid stuffing 10 cards. Try and keep it to 4 at max and keep relying on the main gameplan. Agressive mulligan's into fast hands that "dodge" specific hate, or (if that fails) keep on going sculpting a hand that can play around the hate in say one or two turns. Sometimes you just have to accept that your fighting a battle you can't win even though your playing as good as you can.

Yeah... hence why I went with that transformation. Emrakul is pretty excellent against Miracles, so I would usually go for the Shelldock Plan, and either figure out some way to resolve Needle on Karakas, or hope they don't draw it if they have CountTop online.

[Richard Cheese]

Hey guys, i was wondering what your sideboarding plan against Miracle is. Obviously they play a lot of countermagic and some good hate aka RiP, Terminus and Karakas. So, against:

- counterspells: + 3 (4) Silence (also helps to avoid Terminus or StP)
- Karakas / Top: + 2 Needle (also helps to avoid Terminus)
- RiP / Top / Cage: + 2 Serenity
- Containment Priest / RiP / Cage: + 3 Chain of Vapor

Of course, the discard we're running maindeck will help a lot to deal with their hate. (we could even go for +2 Surgical Extraction since it could help us to shuffle their library to avoid Terminus, but we are allready trying to side-in too much cards).

But we cannot side-in 10 cards without destabilizing the deck. It's reasonable to side-in 6-7 card maximum, since they can take the slots from Lim-Dul and Probe or even Reanimate.
I personnaly would go for the Serenity and Silence, which brings me allready to 6 cards. CoV seems really important too, especially if Containment Priest starts beeing played in the field. Which brings us to 9 cards! Damn.
So how do you guys do it?

You've basically re-discovered the situation where a transformational sideboard excels. Still, your plan above is definitely overkill. Using the reactive board is always about trying to find the sweet spot between protection and compromising the primary game plan. Looking at Lossett's and Schonegger's lists from SCG and the GP, it looks like Rest in Peace is losing favor, and their hate now consists of:

Counters (Force, Pierce, Counterspell, Flusterstorm in the board)
Relic (Lossett, main)
Needle (Lossett, board)
Containment Priest
Karakas (Lossett only)
Counterbalance

Given the above, I would probably just go with 2-3 Silence and 2 Chain. Needle isn't worth bringing in just for Karakas, as you can still push through Griselbrand activation(s) and possibly set yourself up for an Emrakul swing, a second Griselbrand or Tendrils. Not sure what you mean by it helping with Terminus. They're likely boarding that out anyway. I wouldn't bother with Serenity either, it's mostly there to beat Chalice decks and is overcosted and slow when used as a 1-for-1. You really want to go off quickly against this deck since they can easily shut us down with Counterbalance by leaving a 1 and 2 on top.

There was some discussion a while ago about using Teferi's Realm as a kind of cure-all against Miracles, but it's expensive, requires double blue, and highly prone to getting countered. Abeyance may also be worth looking at, as it cantrips and turns off Top/Relic/Karakas, but costing 2 really hurts it.

I honestly don't expect the 2x Relic main to be a popular inclusion, but I could be wrong.

[Koby]

Miracles is indeed difficult.

I recommend:

3 Chain of Vapor
0 Silence (it does not stop their Counterbalance engine, which is the hardest of locks)
2 Serenity (cleans up RIP, CB, Top, Cage, Relic, etc)
Optional: 2 Surgical Extraction

Taking out:
1 Chrome Mox (games may go very long and not needed)
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
Optional: 2 Gitaxian Probe

Swapping Surgical for Probe is basically the same effect (peek) but Surgical can strip out all their FoW's or interrupt SDT tricks. It does become dead with RIP in play, so that should come as a warning.

[Richard Cheese]

Miracles is indeed difficult.

I recommend:

3 Chain of Vapor
0 Silence (it does not stop their Counterbalance engine, which is the hardest of locks)
2 Serenity (cleans up RIP, CB, Top, Cage, Relic, etc)
Optional: 2 Surgical Extraction

Taking out:
1 Chrome Mox (games may go very long and not needed)
1 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
2 Gitaxian Probe
Optional: 2 Gitaxian Probe

Swapping Surgical for Probe is basically the same effect (peek) but Surgical can strip out all their FoW's or interrupt SDT tricks. It does become dead with RIP in play, so that should come as a warning.

I haven't really liked Serenity in that matchup. If they have Counterbalance in play, anyone that knows our deck is going to float a 1 and a 2 on top. I've actually been thinking of running EE in that spot since nobody around here plays MUD or Stax. EE can come down at cmc 3 or 4 where they're weakest, but still deal with a variety of hate, and also potentially be better than 1-for-1. I may also try Abeyance again. Really what I need to do is get some people over and have some real testing sessions, as it's really hard to take any meaningful conclusions from the weekly 4-round crapshoot. Maybe Serenity really is just the tits and I've just never found myself in a situation to take advantage of it.

[ThomasDowd]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

[Bobmans]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

It does happen that either your hand gets ripped or countered and you need te setup a new hand or you just need 1 or 2 pieces to get going (again). LDV really helps setting this up. Also remember that with a Brainstorm you can get as much a 3 cards from your LDV 5 when you have 2 cards to put back. Or with 1 or 2 probes you could setup a combo in the same turn, if you have the mana for it. At the moment i think it is the best tutor card that can be used in this deck. It can indeed feel kinda rough and it is not an easy card to use, meaning you gotta think every 5 through before deciding to get another 5. I suppose the perfect 5 is always a corner case and you have to just make the best of it regardless.

Reanimate is a shallow grave #5 that can get you to do different stuff to. It indeed recurs Children, or you can just get a Griselbrand with it t1/2 (like normal Reanimator) and race your opponent. Or it can take a creature from your opponents yard like a goyf or a TNN. One time i used it to take a Goblin Sharpshooter after i had my opponent discard it and cleared his board with it.
But i guess it's a flexspot, however i like having 8 reanimate spells around.

@ .dk: How do you feel about Chrome Mox? I know it is often important as Petal #5 and saves me from bricking after i draw 14/21 with griselbrand, but in the DDFT conversion it is often a clunky card. Do you think we have a better alternative? On a side note, in one game i casted it to up my storm count and imprinted an Emrakul on it. The look on my opponents face. Hilarious, he thought i was pulling some kind of weird tech, haha.

The DDFT conversion is really fast and solid and i was thinking to brew a list where the TinFins is cut and building a green splashed sideboard around the DDFT conversion with some Abrupt Decay's, Xantid Swarm's, Massacre's, etc. Cutting the Mox for another LED, etc. Have you considered this while playing the list? (i guess it wouldnt be TinFins anymore which is a pity)

[Koby]

Do you guys like the first reanimate? i find the life loss prohibitive for anything but children

Thinking about cutting this and adding another IMS (6th IMS) or 2nd LDV.

I am also on 7 discard spells main


also LDV: is this mainly good in longer games or post DD transform? costing two and taking time and cards feels rough. I am not denying its power, and it is probably the best option in this slot

Reanimate has won me several games against Tempo (Delver) lists like traditional Reanimator. Its one of the better openings against them.

EDIT: I do now recall a few games where I made an EsperBlade opponent discard his TNN, then reanimated it for beatdown for a few turns before he had to Wrath the board away. Expending resources and cards on his half.

To even further pile-on for Reanimate, once the M14 rules changed the Legends rule, I was able to combo off turn 1 as such: Swamp - Ritual - Entomb - Reanimate Griselbrand - Draw 7 cards (going to ~3) - Dark Ritual - Entomb - Shallow Grave Griselbrand - Attack - Draw 7 more - Lotus Petal - Children of Korlis - spin the deck and laugh like an idiot for a good 10 minutes.

As for LDV, I think it's this format's equivalent to Vampiric Tutor. I've often used it EOT turn 2 to find the piece I need then go off turn 3. It's really efficient at what it does for this deck, but overall, it's a bit slow. Like Bobmans said, there's no alternative to it and it's the best spell after Entombs 1-4.

[.dk]

@ThomasDowd:
I like the singleton reanimate, even beyond what Koby stated. Sometimes you nab something killer out of an opponent's graveyard (young pyromancer isn't too shabby these days), but I also like it mid-combo as well. Having another spell to draw that can reanimate Children is really good, in my opinion. Sometimes you burn a Shallow Grave to start your combo, and you would need to draw another to reanimate children. Having one more way I think is pretty key. At least, in my anecdotal experiences seems to have helped with fizzling.

I have a hard time seeing running Tin Fins without at least 1 LDV, and 2 preferably. For all of the reasons stated above in your post and Koby's.

@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)

[ThomasDowd]

@ThomasDowd:
I like the singleton reanimate, even beyond what Koby stated. Sometimes you nab something killer out of an opponent's graveyard (young pyromancer isn't too shabby these days), but I also like it mid-combo as well. Having another spell to draw that can reanimate Children is really good, in my opinion. Sometimes you burn a Shallow Grave to start your combo, and you would need to draw another to reanimate children. Having one more way I think is pretty key. At least, in my anecdotal experiences seems to have helped with fizzling.

I have a hard time seeing running Tin Fins without at least 1 LDV, and 2 preferably. For all of the reasons stated above in your post and Koby's.

@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)

Thanks All for the input on reanimate! I was just goldfishing some hands the other night and never wanted to reanimate a griselbrand due to the difficulty in protecting it once reanimated without force. raw grizzle reanimate leaves only one activation, so that is what was probably getting me down as opposed to being used to the intial 2 activations to win on the spot.


LDV is indeed bonkers and very powerful, I just don't think I can go down to 6 discard for the 2nd one or cut the reanimate. I'll mess around with it. starting with .dk.s' and + 1 TS -1 LDV. which may or may not be correct as an enabler and protection I think playing 6 is a little loose.

[Koby]

There is always the option of 61 cards with 2 LDV.

[ThomasDowd]

There is always the option of 61 cards with 2 LDV.

WHOA WHOA WHOA NOW.

Entertained that. Not sure on if I want to play 61.

[Acclimation]

61 cards is sweet, I've been doing that for a year now.

[Bobmans]

Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1.

One of them or both SDT/Probe? and getting a Tendrills for 20? I can see it when you have both of them stacking LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA. But i don't see one with only SDT or Probe, that doesn't involve Shelldock/Emrakul. (Probe would be better) going for Peedle, SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA/DD or not dropping land and go for SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA, DD using the probe to drop SI the same turn (while knowing you don't have to worry about Wasteland). or am i missing something?

@Bobmans
Chrome Mox, while not ideal, does fuel some fast Doomsday starts. Think of the sideboard as more of a turbo-Doomsday list, rather than traditional DDFT. Like Tin Fins, you want to go off early, so your extra IMS can help with all of that. Example: Chrome Mox, Land, Ritual, Doomsday, SDT/Probe, black spell wins the game on T1. There isn't really another alternative aside from Mox Diamond that I can think of anyway.

Indeed i had some hands where Chrome Mox made it possible to go for the kill T1. Sometimes you lack a card to pitch to Chrome Mox. Mox Diamond basicly put's you in the same spot. Tho i am not sure if i'd want to test Mox Diamond in favor of Chrome Mox. In regular TinFins i used to play a 1/1 split, but sometimes holding one while you wished you had the other...

I don't think in this version of Doomsday you really need the 4th LED. It is more useful in DDFT as you're running Burning Wish, and is needed to cast spells off of Wish sometimes. Chrome Mox may even be more useful as it can actually cast cards from hand.

Agreed.

I also wouldn't recommend a straight UBg DDFT list either - it's not flexible enough like DDFT. Burning Wish opens up so many more board options as well as Doomsday piles that the deck is rather crippled without it. Yes, you can cast Doomsday faster like we do here in this transformation, but that isn't always good enough. My opinion though.

Can't the same be said about ANT vs TES? Not wanting to compare DDFT with regular Tendrills storm, but this has the same potantial as ANT has. In games i played with the DDFT conversion i was thinking, i wish i had Abrupt Decay or Xantid Swarm or a Massacre or extra discard. to board in to support the already solid gameplan. I also have the UBRg(w) list and feel that this (UB) list plays more "natural", but lacking a little bit of support out of the sideboard. Plus that Burning Wish can be a bit clunky. Maybe it's a lack of experience playing (this)DDFT list and thinking about re-inventing the wheel, but i am not missing BW at all.

Imprinting Emrakul is pretty hilarious - not doing anything else with the card, right? You can just cast Chrome Mox without imprinting anything for storm too, btw. ;)

Apart from not doing anything, it is such a illogical move that my opponent thought it was part of some combo he never saw before or that there was some kind of weird shit going to happen. People get errors in their brains when one does something that is not expected and illogical.
I once did something similar (imprinting Griselbrand) and then Pull from Eternity into Shallow Grave ftw.

[alastair]

So, Doomsday SB. 3-1 at the weekly with some luck on my side. I have always felt that TinFins is too soft to hate in G2-3, and favour transformation (Painter, Storm, Men).

Rnd 1 Win, Delver/Patriot.
G1 Tentative reanimate after disruption.
G2 Into Doomsday; a literal wall of counters hits everything I don’t want it to, Delver gets there.
G3 With the graveyard hate I saw in G2, I stick with Doomsday. Steady cantrip sequence, but I screwed the pile up with IU, LED, LED, Probe, Tendrills…… but with mana spare to recast top and get to Tendrills.

Rnd 2 Loss, Jund.
G1 Opening 7 with entomb/reanimate but light on mana. Entomb in response to Wastelands, and I was 5 turns to draw a land. I made GB eventuually, drew ½ the deck but saw no Petal or Mox to get there.
G2 Into Doomsday, a fair keep that gets shredded. A timely REB kept me off Probe, go for a Doomsday blind. On four life I paid two for Probe to draw Tendrils for storm 10, and promptly die to his bolt.

Rnd 3 Win, UR Painter.
G1 T1 he makes Painter, T2 he makes grindstone + shoots….. move to deck-pick-up…. I have Emrakul. We enter the Painter beatdown phase as I draw poorly and his REB’s slow me. At ~6 life I bait counters with therapy and double reanimate, into DR's and hardcast GB.
G2 On Doomsday he SnT’s and I get annihilated on Turn 3.
G3 An excellent game, sculpt my hand and resolve Doomsday for Tendrills.

RnD 4 Win, Elves
G1 Turn one without effort
G2 Turn two/three again without effort.

So, three actual games with Doomsday and I have an awful lot to learn. I didn't play against specific Doomsday hate other than random factors keeping me off Sheldock. I do like this strategy.... 6 months to Lille for practice.

[Bobmans]

So, Doomsday SB. 3-1 at the weekly with some luck on my side.

Rnd 1 Win, Delver/Patriot.
G3 Steady cantrip sequence, but I screwed the pile up with IU, LED, LED, Probe, Tendrills…… but with mana spare to recast top and get to Tendrills.

Rnd 2 Loss, Jund.
G1 Opening 7 with entomb/reanimate but light on mana. Entomb in response to Wastelands, and I was 5 turns to draw a land. I made GB eventuually, drew ½ the deck but saw no Petal or Mox to get there.

RnD 4 Win, Elves
G2 Turn two/three again without effort.

Congrats on putting up some results.
Not all that lucky, could have gone better during that Jund matchup game 1. Though Luck.

Did you play game 2 versus Elves as DDFT or TinFins?

Also i don't follow what went wrong during game 3 of Round 1, could you elaborate?
If you have a LED or 1UU mana open, a TOP in play and just made that pile using DD you have a pile that makes 7 storm (including ToA) on it's own. Seems fine to me?

[alastair]

Elves, I SB’d into Doomsday in G2 (just remembered). I feel that Elves players sometimes overboard, destroying their own game plan and giving you far too much time.

Jund, single Sea in hand and I was acutely aware of the Wasteland risk. I went with Entomb over BS in response. BS was a better play (but I didn’t know what deck he was on, and that left him only having Force to stop Entomb).

IU, LED, LED, GP, ToA.
Flipped top to draw IU.
IU draws Top, LED, and LED.
Forced me to make Top again, flip to draw GP, re-draw & make Top to get ToA. It worked, but I had not allowed the mana or life in my calculation. I had counted on drawing GP into ToA (but missed top). Lesson learnt, but also learn in how to generate additional storm.

I found GP hands down the best card in Doomsday. It made piles easier to resolve and when I was unsure of a fifth card…. add GP.

The core TinFins list is still as powerful as ever. It suffers inconsistent draws with the Entomb Bottlneck. But some days you win the dice rolls.

[TheyCallMeTim]

Do we need more detail in the opening post about what we've tested, tried, cut, and why?

Not to argue in favour of the red splash, but I have yet to see any discussion with regard to a list that eschews blue for ONLY Burning Wish and Faithless Looting (which can be a strong addition). This adds the toolbox nature of Burning Wish (including a Stronghold Gambit in the board) and maintains some cantrip / discard ability without the recklessness of LED. If I missed such a discussion in the 90+ pages, I apologize. But a strong local player runs such a list with positive results. I will try to get his full 75. Additional apologies for resurrecting this unpopular topic, I'm finally catching up on the last few days.

[Bobmans]

Not to argue in favour of the red splash, but I have yet to see any discussion with regard to a list that eschews blue for ONLY Burning Wish and Faithless Looting (which can be a strong addition). This adds the toolbox nature of Burning Wish (including a Stronghold Gambit in the board) and maintains some cantrip / discard ability without the recklessness of LED. If I missed such a discussion in the 90+ pages, I apologize. But a strong local player runs such a list with positive results. I will try to get his full 75. Additional apologies for resurrecting this unpopular topic, I'm finally catching up on the last few days.

Check post 93 in this thread.

[.dk]

@TheCallMeTim I think that's a different deck - Burning Reanimator. I'm not sure if there is a thread around for it, but it's a bit different than Tin Fins, IMO.

@alastair I'm even more confused now. That's exactly how that pile is supposed to work to generate 8 storm... you have enough mana from LED's to pay mana for Probe. I don't get it.

One of them or both SDT/Probe? and getting a Tendrills for 20? I can see it when you have both of them stacking LED, IU, LED, LED, ToA. But i don't see one with only SDT or Probe, that doesn't involve Shelldock/Emrakul. (Probe would be better) going for Peedle, SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA/DD or not dropping land and go for SI, EMMY, Rit, ToA, DD using the probe to drop SI the same turn (while knowing you don't have to worry about Wasteland). or am i missing something?

You're right, you need both. I mistyped.

Can't the same be said about ANT vs TES? Not wanting to compare DDFT with regular Tendrills storm, but this has the same potantial as ANT has. In games i played with the DDFT conversion i was thinking, i wish i had Abrupt Decay or Xantid Swarm or a Massacre or extra discard. to board in to support the already solid gameplan. I also have the UBRg(w) list and feel that this (UB) list plays more "natural", but lacking a little bit of support out of the sideboard. Plus that Burning Wish can be a bit clunky. Maybe it's a lack of experience playing (this)DDFT list and thinking about re-inventing the wheel, but i am not missing BW at all.

This discussion really belongs in another thread (Fetchland Tendrils), but I'll try to answer succinctly here. UB Doomsday enables more T1 Doomsdays. Burning Wish enables more T2 Doomsdays (Wish + LED, or Wish acting as a Lotus Petal in your pile) as well as more late game resiliency and options. Wish enables like 400% more piles... If I'm playing DDFT, I want more options, and T1 vs. T2 isn't that different. I'm fine with the trade.

Apart from not doing anything, it is such a illogical move that my opponent thought it was part of some combo he never saw before or that there was some kind of weird shit going to happen. People get errors in their brains when one does something that is not expected and illogical.
I once did something similar (imprinting Griselbrand) and then Pull from Eternity into Shallow Grave ftw.

Yes! That was one of the plays I was thinking of when I was first thinking about Pull from Eternity a couple years ago!

[TheyCallMeTim]

@TheCallMeTim I think that's a different deck- Burning Reanimator. I'm not sure if there is a thread around for it, but it's a bit different than Tin Fins, IMO.

Lol, I posted it in their thread about a year ago when they told me to bring it here. I never really seriously piloted it but my buddy swears by it.

It looks something like this:

3 Badlands
4 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Burning Wish

//Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Buried Alive
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Stronghold Gambit
1 Coffin Purge
1 Flex


Again, I'm not advocating anyone jump on board and try this, just thought I'd mention it. The wish board is nice but it might also lend itself to an ANT transformation.

EDIT: Or Doomsday Transformation, for that matter.