[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Dziga Murnau]

Nice report - sounds like a fun event for you. I think you're right for going to DDFT against D&T, although I can see sticking with Tin Fins on the play. Against Miracles, I don't think you can board fast enough into DDFT. Curve is more diverse and your main business spell is a 3 drop, which is much harder for them to counter. Also, they have a rough time beating Emrakul usually.

Also - if you play it again, I think you should cut the Tundra. I've been playing a 4th Sea lately, but I could also see changing up the fetches to play 1 Swamp, 1 Island, 3 Seas, 1 Scrubland too.

It's even okay to remove Scrubland and play another fetchland or some Darkslick Shores. We just don't need white mana source that hard to keep a white dual in the deck. 4 Petals is really enough in the build which do not use antihate white cards like Silence and Serenity. Children usually cost BB or 1BB here, not W.

[dte]

I've also cutted the Tundra, for either 3 U Sea, 1 scrubland, 1 swamp, 1 island or 4 U Sea, 1 swamp, 1 Scrubland. I'm not decided yet, but I didn't missed the basic island a lot.

The report is very nice, why did'nt you switch to DDFT versus stoneblade?

Otherwise, vs D&T I used to do a mix between the two plans post SB:
putting out 4 probes (the information is not that interesting - except for CT, the life is relevant, there is no worse card vs thalia/cannoniste and you do want to know what your hand is doing for mulligan decisions. Thalia MUs are probably the only one where you want to side out GP), 1 tendril, 1 griselbrand, 1 reanimate (reanimate on grisel is terrible against them), -1 cabal, -1 LDV.
+ 4 DD, +1 SI, +1 CoV, +1 pithing needle, +2 SDT.
It increase by a lot your chances, as DD T1 OTD or T1/2 OTP for SI is gg against them, while anyway later building a DD-ToA pile through hatebears is kinda hard.

[.dk]

Putting an Island in the deck does make your fetchbase a lot shittier, unless you just say that you'll only be fetching it off of a delta, so then you can still run Marsh Flats.

I think the benefit of running 1 white dual outweighs the cost, even if you're not running Silence or Serenity. I like Scrubland as it is fetchable off of Deltas as well as Flats. I've run into some games where the only way I got Children in play was casting it off of a white land. 4 petals I don't believe are enough to cover this case. The case where I can see a benefit to cutting it is if you're running Island in the deck, and your fetch base is a little goofy because of it so you can run 9 fetches to even that out a little. I don't understand the Darkslick Shores comment though.

[Kathal]

@dte, I had the feeling, that he didn't had RiP or Priest in his SB (which was true, since he told me this after the game), but I boarded the Chain in, just in case. Also, I was still half asleep there, so my brain said, better burst some Onions instead of trying to make some DDFT piles. Overall I think it is correct to switch to the DDFT plan post board in that match-up.

I also like your plan against D&T, I just would keep the Tendrils in, just in case you need it (or you need to kill the opponent now).

@.dk, I would play like 4 Deltas, 3 Marsh Flats and 1 Flooded Strand. In one game I also needed the Scrubland to cast Children (can't remember anymore which one it was). I wouldn't cut both W Duals, but the Tundra cut seems fine. I think he meant that you could run the Darkslick Shore as Underground Nr. 5 (although you can't fetch it).

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: It was pretty funny for me to see, how close Tin Fins is to the Modern Shoal Reanimator version (from the playstyle). I will likely play Tin Fins in a few weeks at a tournament again (if I can take the time for it), probably with the same version, I just don't know, if I should play the Lab Man DDFT SB, which results in some problems (like you have 1-2 dead cards MD), but it doesn't lose against Wasteland and Karakas (although you have the Needle for them). Dunno I will write something together, but I really liked the MD.

[Koby]

PS: It was pretty funny for me to see, how close Tin Fins is to the Modern Shoal Reanimator version (from the playstyle). I will likely play Tin Fins in a few weeks at a tournament again (if I can take the time for it), probably with the same version, I just don't know, if I should play the Lab Man DDFT SB, which results in some problems (like you have 1-2 dead cards MD), but it doesn't lose against Wasteland and Karakas (although you have the Needle for them). Dunno I will write something together, but I really liked the MD.

Considering I helped push development on Tin Fins and the Modern deck in the same month, I think that has a lot to do with it.
#yolo #griselbanned

[Kathal]

I play the Modern Tin Fins Shoal version (or whatever you want to call that deck), since last year August. It is a blast to play (and it was sooo awesome to play it in the TC time, since there was no Graveyard hate and no discard :D ). But yeah, I sling Griselbrands since he was printed (first in Ritual Gifts with Griselbrand reanimator and now in Tin Fins), since I like drawing cards and Griselbrand is otherwise I pretty fair card Kappa.

Greetings,
Kathal

[dte]

PS: It was pretty funny for me to see, how close Tin Fins is to the Modern Shoal Reanimator version (from the playstyle). I will likely play Tin Fins in a few weeks at a tournament again (if I can take the time for it), probably with the same version, I just don't know, if I should play the Lab Man DDFT SB, which results in some problems (like you have 1-2 dead cards MD), but it doesn't lose against Wasteland and Karakas (although you have the Needle for them). Dunno I will write something together, but I really liked the MD.

Thanks to needle, waste and karakas are a non issue when you build DD => SI if they are not together on the battlefield.
And even if both are on the battlefield, it is not unbeattable.
If you want to build the labman side, you have to keep useless cards from MD AND you have to fit in IU, LEDs and the full set of SDT, so the transformation which keeps both combo is not possible anymore. Finally, be it tendril or labman, you usually lose to the same hate vs the hatebears MUs (thalia, canonniste, SotL, revoker,...).
Otherwise, what do you cut for Labman?

PS: do you have a link for these shoal-grisel modern lists?

[.dk]

Not that I'm necessarily recommending this, but there were builds of Tin Fins a year or two ago that people were playing around with Lab Maniac in the Tendrils spot maindeck. If you're looking for a Lab Maniac Doomsday wincon transformation, that may be a place to start.

[Kathal]

Thanks to needle, waste and karakas are a non issue when you build DD => SI if they are not together on the battlefield.
And even if both are on the battlefield, it is not unbeattable.
If you want to build the labman side, you have to keep useless cards from MD AND you have to fit in IU, LEDs and the full set of SDT, so the transformation which keeps both combo is not possible anymore. Finally, be it tendril or labman, you usually lose to the same hate vs the hatebears MUs (thalia, canonniste, SotL, revoker,...).
Otherwise, what do you cut for Labman?

PS: do you have a link for these shoal-grisel modern lists?

The thing is, that I never really liked the SI+Emmi plan, but I know the problems with Lab Man (especially if you want it transformation SB in a deck like Tin Fins). If I would play Lab Man in the SB I would go full DDFT against D&T, since Lab Man is the best DD strategy against D&T (what I felt, can be wrong through). Also, with Lab Man you can play around several things easier (like Thalia, Revoker and Needle), more difficult against some stuff (like Swords, Canonist (you need 2 Turns than)) and it is even against some other hate. But in the end it is personal preference.

About the Modern deck: KLICK ME HARD (link to the Primer, it is the Shoal-Insanity build)

Not that I'm necessarily recommending this, but there were builds of Tin Fins a year or two ago that people were playing around with Lab Maniac in the Tendrils spot maindeck. If you're looking for a Lab Maniac Doomsday wincon transformation, that may be a place to start.

Oh, thanks, didn't knew that one. I will look them up.

Greetings,
Kathal

[CabalTherapy]

I won a small 4 rounds tournament with TinFins yesterday (or as I call it now, DazeFins).
Played against Miracles, Esperblade, FoodChain and ThopterFoundry.dec. I have to say that Daze was unbelievably good throughout the whole tournament as was Abrupt Decay in the side.
Daze allowed me to counter a Counterspell with my Entomb on the stack, which is an awesome situation for TinFins. I might try an additional Daze in the main, going up to 3 but I am not sure about it yet. Nonetheless, the deck is pure destruction.

[alaska]

I won a small 4 rounds tournament with TinFins yesterday (or as I call it now, DazeFins).
Played against Miracles, Esperblade, FoodChain and ThopterFoundry.dec. I have to say that Daze was unbelievably good throughout the whole tournament as was Abrupt Decay in the side.
Daze allowed me to counter a Counterspell with my Entomb on the stack, which is an awesome situation for TinFins. I might try an additional Daze in the main, going up to 3 but I am not sure about it yet. Nonetheless, the deck is pure destruction.

This next week I'm trying the wacky Pull From Eternity build, but after that I want to test Daze. What did you cut for 2x-3x Daze?

[.dk]

2 Thoughtseize is probably where I would start. The discard yourself plan doesn't come up that often, and I personally prefer Therapy to Thoughtseize. Could also go to 1 Thoughtseize and cut a Probe or something.

[CabalTherapy]

This next week I'm trying the wacky Pull From Eternity build, but after that I want to test Daze. What did you cut for 2x-3x Daze?

I play 2 Daze instead of LDV which is too slow and creates card disadvantage.
4 Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze

Ah and by the way: Never cut a Probe! This card is too strong.

[Mhenlo]

...
2 Thoughtseize
2 Daze

Ah and by the way: Never cut a Probe! This card is too strong.

Says CabalTherapy

[CabalTherapy]

Says CabalTherapy

True. I need this card in order to function properly.

[.dk]

If you're cutting LDV though, I can't see how you want to stick to only 2 Griselbrands. You're too reliant on a 4 of (entomb) to get Griselbrand in the yard. I'm also not sure I agree that 8 protection spells (4 therapy, 2 thoughtseize, 2 daze) is right either. That seems a little heavy on protection/disruption and too light on business.

Yes Probe is really good. However, it doesn't put Griselbrand in the yard. It's not key to how the deck functions - trimming those is very doable.

[alaska]

If you're cutting LDV though, I can't see how you want to stick to only 2 Griselbrands. You're too reliant on a 4 of (entomb) to get Griselbrand in the yard. I'm also not sure I agree that 8 protection spells (4 therapy, 2 thoughtseize, 2 daze) is right either. That seems a little heavy on protection/disruption and too light on business.

Yes Probe is really good. However, it doesn't put Griselbrand in the yard. It's not key to how the deck functions - trimming those is very doable.

Lately I've been running 2 Griselbrand, 6 discard spells, no LDV. I think your concerns about being overly reliant on Entomb are valid. I may go up to 3 Griselbrand.

[.dk]

That has historically been the main problem with all of the modern builds of this deck. The burning wish version fixes that a little bit, but it's still not great. Gimme mystical tutor back please.

[sdematt]

Build me a theoretical build with Mystical Tutor, and tell me your results, .dk. I'm very interested :P

-Matt

[.dk]

Yessir! Been thinking about that for a couple of years now... but haven't actually tested anything out. I'll get back to you on that one with a few possibilities. SDT becomes pretty nuts with Mystical in the deck