That would be helpful, thank you. I just might have to irritate opponents at my local events until I get enough proficiency. Hell, it might even be a good introductory course to DDFT.
Sounds even more contrived and difficult to pilot. Think I'll stick with Doomsday's "easy mode", if it ever had one.
Better stop there before NSA starts investigating us for human trafficking!
Draw, play Island, GG?
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
I've already started working on it - Richard Cheese will be including it in the next primer update.
That said, if you're interested in DDFT itself, I would go build and test that deck rather than relying on this transformation. It's far better at doing what it does and gives you many more options and lines to deal with specific situations. I've been playing DDFT for a couple years now, and honestly, that experience is what made the transformation even remotely playable for me. And I obviously screwed it up a couple times as well.
Oh absolutely, I'm not trying to discourage innovation at all! Case in point, your Doomsday transform is beautiful. I'm just opposed to senseless changes because they're cool. About Borborygmos - I guess I don't see it. I think we can agree that Emrakul is more objectively powerful and needed for the more involved lines (going infinite, etc), so it's a question of him vs. Tendrils. Tendrils is unlikely to do something on its own, but bbgurl never will. I've also definitely swung in with Emrakul and Tendriled out the opponent with the graveyard shut off (RiP, etc).
Oh I completely forgot that you can claim two day 2s with TinFins now! That's sick. Definitely I was talking about the GP Atlanta list.
Hey, fair enough. One of the great things about Legacy is you can get what you want out of it and still have some sweet plays. My objection was more to coming in and presenting your list with no disclaimers of such or justification.
The argument that you can just Brainstorm the pieces back is not a good reason to run more combo pieces if fewer will do just fine. One of the reasons Sneak & Show and Omniscience are better than Hive Mind is because they have fewer dead draws. Sometimes you just don't have Brainstorm. Undoubtedly Unmask is more powerful when it's good. It's pretty terrible when you mulligan or are trying to rebuild though, which is why Thoughtseize is more consistent overall.
As mentioned above, I don't see it as being more compact because I believe Emrakul is non-negotiable. Instant speed win is definitely nice, but that requires you to draw 6-7 lands in 14 cards, and not have been able to just win on your mainphase. Unlikely.
I haven't actually seen Leyline + Ensnaring Bridge either, but I have seen multiple hate pieces. The way it works with Emrakul is you float infinite mana, then you can Chain of Vapor infinite times. Chain their hate piece. If they sac a land to bounce Griselbrand, just recast him. Discard Emrakul, draw Chain of Vapor, repeat. It takes about 5 minutes (if you're quick!) to get to a graveyard pile like that, but it's doable.
I'm excited to see it! I sleeved up your 75 and battled some matches against Miracles. I came out way more impressed with Doomsday than I expected - it's FAST! I tried piloting DDFT for a couple weeks a while ago and couldn't figure out the cantrips in the deck - when do I Top, when do I Ponder, and what do I look for? Since then I've played more with Ponder Miracles so it comes more naturally. Still, I wish there was a better out to Counterbalance than hope to resolve Doomsday into Shelldock. Still, I won like 4 of 6 games. Very, very cool build.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
How then? I can't imagine the deck hard casting Emrakul...
Or some combination of Soul Spike (with 7 more cards) and land. The supposed necessity of Emrakul doesn't make sense to me, but I won't call it "senseless"! Lol. You don't have to agree with my approach, and that's okay. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their lists. I just posted something that I said was unconventional and shared my results with it. No hard feelings!
Draw, play Island, GG?
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
Really? I've found resolving Doomsday usually pretty easy against Miracles. One strategy is to use your Dark Rituals early to cast Sensei's Divining Top and shred their hand with discard. Then you can build up 3 black IMS and cast Doomsday when they don't really have a hand. It's tough to lose once you actually get Doomsday through. Terminus is definitely real, but worst case you could Pithing Needle SDT after you've found what you need.
I'm not too scared of Counterbalance itself when I'm on Doomsday - they barely have any 3 drops maindeck, so it's really a matter of trying to get the few counterspells they have out of their hand.
And like you said, it's really fast. You can always just try to cast T1 Doomsday and see if they have a Force of Will.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Sometimes it comes up that there's a 1-turn window to swing in with Emrakul before the graveyard is off, then you have to kill them somehow. One example - my BUG Delver opponent Surgicalled my Griselbrands and had an active Deathrite. I was able to force through an Emrakul with two reanimation spells, but he was at like 3. I played Tendrils a couple turns later to kill him.
I haven't tried out the power-disruption strategy. Definitely something to keep in mind - it's weird that Doomsday requires so little in the way of initial resources! The issue I was finding in the couple games I lost was that they have enough permission to just counter the first Doomsday and waiting to disrupt them allows them to get Counterbalance online and shut off the disruption. Sure, they don't have many 3s, but they do have a pile of counterspells! I definitely need to test it some more.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I actually don't find them to have that many counterspells. They play what, 4 Force of Will, 2 Counterspells, maybe a spell pierce? That's not so bad. And if they land Counterbalance, see if you can bait them into flipping top, and then cast Doomsday and win. :) Yeah, they'll get there on a flip of Entreat or Council's Judgment sometimes, but that's just playing against Miracles. I don't want to claim I feel "heavily" favored against them, but I definitely feel favored after transformation.
Oh you can definitely hardcast Emmy if you want to. Once you get an activation with Children, it's generally not to bad to go infinite. You just draw as much as you can, then use all your petals and rituals, then bin Emrakul to shuffle them back in. I think Caleb or Koby is on camera looping this and chaining rituals to hardcast Emrakul. I think Phazonmutant actually did it with Lotus Petals once too. Personally I've never had to do it or wanted to because I shuffle slow like a child and I like free time between rounds.
So Emrakul is more than just a wincon, he's actually part of a separate engine as well.
Perhaps a more interesting question is: can we replace Tendrils with Babaganoush and gain anything? For one, you can essentially tutor him up with Entomb, and make equally infinite damage with him by looping Children/Emrakul. He's also one mana less to go off with, although once you're going for Tendrils mana is rarely an issue, but rarely isn't never. Assuming your opponent hasn't lost any life and even going off post-combat, you need to pitch 5 lands, which isn't tooooo bad.
OTOH, damage vs. loss of life is sometimes a big difference, Tendrils can close out a game after an Emrakul Swing if you get Griselbrands extracted, or keep you in the game in a pinch, whereas Bibimbap is pretty much dead until you have Griselbrand online, except for maaaaaaybe blowing up a Revoker or something. Also, Storm is just a broken mechanic, although if you're at the point where you're casting Tendrils, you're probably not worrying about counters anyway.
I may test that swap out, as soon as I can come up with something satisfactory to call that guy besides Borborygmos, because that is just terrible. Like, my fingers hurt every time I type it out.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Doomsday Transformation
As there have been many questions on the Doomsday transformation, below is a quick primer on that version of the deck specifically. Firstly, the 75 that I ran at Grand Prix New Jersey:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Children of Korlis
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Shallow Grave
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sideboard:
1 Shelldock Isle
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Doomsday
The standard cards to take out to swap in the entire 15 card sideboard are:
-4 Shallow Grave
-3 Goryo's Vengeance
-1 Reanimate
-1 Children of Korlis
-4 Entomb
-2 Griselbrand
The benefits of this transformation:
1. Sidesteps graveyard hate (except in weird circumstances where you need a specific card in your graveyard that you've already cast to search for in your Doomsday pile - this is an extreme corner case and can be prevented)
2. Since Doomsday is a 1 card combo, it makes the deck much more resilient to Discard post sideboard (particularly alongside Sensei's Divining Top)
3. Doomsday into Tendrils of Agony is still very fast, and can beat decks with fast clocks with counter backup.
4. Doomsday into Shelldock/Emrakul is an excellent plan against both Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. These decks are usually slow, and have a hard time countering 3 CMC cards (Doomsday). Shelldock actually casts Emrakul, so it is uncounterable.
The weaknesses of this transformation:
1. Doomsday is very weak to Burn. Since you're losing half your life, a stray Fireblast or Price of Progress can ruin your day
2. Wasteland + Karakas can be a big problem for the Shelldock plan. You only have access to 1 Pithing Needle
3. Surgical Extraction on Doomsday if they've countered or discarded it is pretty rough to recover from. You don't have access to Burning Wish like DDFT does, which means your ability to Storm is neutered.
4. This is more mana hungry than the maindeck - your payoff spell (Doomsday) has the same casting cost as your 2 card maindeck combo (Entomb, Shallow Grave), however searching with Sensei's Divining Top can eat a lot of mana - this makes you slower and more vulnerable to Wasteland
When to Transform
Against most decks, I would ways transform game 2 if you've shown them reanimation and entomb game 1. Some exceptions to this would be UR Delver and Burn. Neither of these decks play much graveyard hate, and the Maindeck is slightly faster than the transformation, so you're probably better off sticking with Tin Fins. Furthermore, if you're on the play in a sideboarded game, Tin Fins is a little more potent for the same reason - if you believe they have a fast clock and slower graveyard hate (Deathrite Shaman), it may be correct to stick with Tin Fins as you have 2 turns before their graveyard hate comes online.
Card Choices
I wanted to address card choices specifically here, as there are some in the maindeck that I don't believe the Doomsday transformation works without.
Gitaxian Probe. Don't think about going less than 4. You need them to draw into your Doomsday piles in addition to all of the normal uses (drawing, Cabal Therapy, etc.)
Emrakul. Some people have eschewed him for other creatures in some builds - he's a monster when actually cast off of Shelldock Isle as you get your extra turn trigger. Unless you're running a different win condition maindeck that is conducive to a pass the turn pile (namely Lab Maniac), then you need Emrakul in your 60.
Lim-Dul's Vault. You only have 4 business spells maindeck: 4 Doomsdays. LDV is the best way to find more, and essential to making sure that you're not spending many turns cantripping (and wasting cantrips that could draw into your pile) just to find Doomsday. 4 Doomsdays alone aren't enough for consistency, in my opinion.
Casting Doomsday
A quick primer on how to actually USE the transformation in a basic sense. There is a lot to explore and get familiar with here, so this is just something to get you started. For more in depth information, you should look into the Fetchland Tendrils thread or looking into the Stormboards
Disclaimer: while I do reference some basic piles here, that is NOT how I would recommend learning to play this. Each part of your deck is a potential piece of your Doomsday piles, depending on the game state. Knowing and figuring out how all of your cards interact in this sense are the key to being successful with Doomsday. Think of it as 5 Vampiric Tutors that stack all 5 cards in whatever order you want - get the 5 cards that win the game from your current game state, and recognize what they are before even casting Doomsday.
Cantrips
One of the most important things to understand with Doomsday is how to use your cantrips. They are critically important both before and after casting Doomsday. There are numerous articles detailing how to most efficiently use Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top to find a specific card - I would recommend searching for those. However... you may not want to burn all of them early, and specifically Gitaxian Probes. The reason is that these cards give you the ability to draw your first card in your Doomsday piles after Doomsday has resolved. They enable you to keep casting spells and advancing your game plan on that same turn.
Shelldock Isle
There are 2 basic strategies for using Doomsday in this deck. The first, and simpler case, is using Shelldock Isle to cast Emrakul. Shelldock lets you cast the card hidden underneath it when you have 20 or less cards in your library - perfect for Doomsday! A typical pile that you would build would
Top-------------------------------------------->Bottom
Pithing Needle, Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Doomsday
This is assuming that you have 2 draw spells available. Use your first cantrip to draw Pithing Needle, and play it naming Wasteland or Karakas (whichever is right given the game state). Then use your next draw to draw into Shelldock Isle, play it hiding Emrakul. Pass the turn (don't die!), then untap, drawing Dark Ritual, and cast Emrakul, triggering an extra turn. On your following turn, you Attack, Annihilate, and then cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday if you need to attack to win again (making sure you don't deck yourself)
That's the simple version. You can also put Chain of Vapor, discard spells, or whatever you need to disrupt your opponent.
Another option would be to end with Rituals and Tendrils of Agony:
Top----------------------------------------------->Bottom
Shelldock, Emrakul, Lotus Peal, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony
This can let you attack for 15, and then finish them with Tendrils for 4-6 to finish the job on the same turn.
Tendrils of Agony (DDFT Mode)
Storming out with Doomsday is much more difficult (for the inexperienced), but much more potent strategy. A few basics are below, but much more information is available in other place. I'll start with the most basic pile for Tendrils of Agony and walk through how that works and assume that you get the mechanics from there, and just reference piles from that point. The storm counts referenced are from the pile itself and casting Doomsday, and does not include any Rituals, Petals, Discard, etc. from before casting Doomsday.
Assumptions: Sensei's Divining Top in play, 1UU available post Doomsday
Top----------------------------->Bottom
Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Ponder, Tendrils (8 Storm)
1. Flip SDT to draw Ideas Unbound (IU)
2. Cast IU (using UU available) drawing SDT, LED, LED
3. Cast SDT (using 1 available), cast 2xLED
4. Crack both LED's for UUUBBB
5. Flip SDT to draw Ponder
6. Cast Ponder drawing Tendrils
7. Cast Tendrils
Similar to this, if you have another draw spell (say, Gitaxian Probe) in your hand, a very similar pile can be created with no floating requirements. The draw spell can effectively be turned into a Lion's Eye Diamond in the pile, reducing the cost of the pile, like this:
SDT in play, Gitaxian Probe in hand:
Top-------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Tendrils (8 Storm)
The Probe in hand draws LED, then use that mana in reponse to flipping SDT to draw IU and combo off from there. Likewise, you could use a Brainstorm or Ponder in hand like Gitaxian Probe in this example, for a pile cost of U.
Sometimes, however, you don't have SDT in play (that's the easy mode for the deck). In those cases, you'll need a cantrip to draw into your pile instead. A basic pile:
Gitaxian Probe in hand, UU available
Top-------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Tendrils (7 Storm)
And just like above, the double cantrip version to cost reduce:
2x Gitaxian Probe in hand
Top---------------------------------------->Bottom
LED, Ideas Unbound, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Tendrils (8 Storm)
The last scenario I'll show gets you around a hate permanent like Gaddock Teeg or Leyline of Sanctity that would prevent you from casting Tendrils or targeting them. This uses the singleton Chain of Vapor (CoV) to replace a draw spell in your Doomsday pile:
SDT in play, 1UUU available
Top--------------------------->Bottom
Ideas Unbound, LED, CoV, LED, Tendrils (8 Storm)
This uses the interaction with SDT and CoV to replace a draw spell. Once you've gotten to the board state where the LED and SDT are back on the battlefield, you are left with CoV in hand - the text below the "bounce" part on CoV is the important part (the sac a land to copy part). The sequence works like this: Tap SDT to draw a card, and maintain priority. Then cast CoV targeting SDT, sac a land to then bounce your LED, and sac another land to bounce Teeg/Leyline on their side of the battlefield. SDT's ability then resolves, and you draw the second LED. Replay SDT and LED (for additional storm) and the second LED, sac the LED's for black and tap SDT to draw Tendrils and win.
Again, this is far from any kind of comprehensive guide to casting Doomsday. There are MANY more ways to use the card to win, particularly with Tendrils of Agony. Be sure to check out the links at the beginning of the post. There are probably other goofy piles with Shelldock too. A hilarious example I just thought of would be something like...
Pre-Doomsday, you play Shelldock Isle and hide Tendrils of Agony below it. You cast Doomsday, and then make a pile that makes you the most mana possible, and ensures that you can get 2x SDT on the battlefield. Draw through your piles to make your mana, and flip tops and recast them using all the mana you've made except for U. Once you're done, activate Shelldock Isle casting Tendrils for U. I'm pretty sure this is awful, but it is pretty damn funny!
I hope this helps to get people started with the Doomsday transformation. Good luck bursting your Onions of DOOM!
/edit: also credit where it's due - this transformation in particular came from Lejay (of course) on the stormboards back in 2013
/edit: fixed a typo someone in the BR thread showed me. 2.5 years later. Neato.
So, I decided to just make a post that Richard Cheese can link to in the primer, as I'm pretty sure that just a "quick" Doomsday section would push the opening post too long. Let me know if there is anything confusing there or if I could explain it better, and I'll modify it.
Oh I like that one! :)
Draw, play Island, GG?
Arthur: What manner of man are you that can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: I... am an enchanter.
Arthur: By what name are you known?
Tim: There are some who call me... 'Tim'...?
Arthur: ...greetings, Tim the Enchanter.
Updated the first post/primer. Fair warning, I've been drinking absinthe and watching the first two seasons of Sealab the whole time, so there might be some typos...or mistakes...or just outright lies. Send all corrections and changes to Eggers in Pod 6.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Very entertaining and enjoyable primer. This has to be definately one of the best threads (still searching for the best) on the source. I will be smashing some faces with this deck in
foreseeable time, although I am still not sure which SB configuration I should choose. I tend to go with the usual protection plan with Needle, Massacre and Chains and stuff but since I am
a storm player I would love to create some awesome Doomsday piles. Nonetheless, good job and a nice read.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
This is just freaking awesome. I never believed in transformational board in TinFins, but since i have actually played a Doomsday list lately AND still having a weakspot for TinFins i am a believer (again).
Great performance with the list and thanks for writing down the primer for the transformation. Also great work with the OP, the deck on its own was pretty awesome (reminds me of the days where Yawgmoth's Bargain and casting multiple Soul Feast was actually a tier 1 standard deck), but you've (Richard Cheese) added a cool flavor to this deck. Great work guys.
I'll be spinnin' noodles (Chinese Emrakul) and Top's the coming period as my weapon of choice.
Thanks! I hope people can find it useful. It really just takes a lot of practice. I've you've already been playing DDFT though, you're pretty golden as some of the less obvious lines (like Brainstorm piles) aren't so tough to figure out.
@Bobmans - since it sounds like you've been playing Doomsday a bit already, any feedback on the post or things that I could add/change?
Cleaned up OP a bit more. Rearranged the sideboarding section, cleaned up some formatting.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Silas-- good work on the primer. Its excellent and thorough!
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
You have covered most important DDFT plays required to get starting with this list. One thing is for sure, people should not be picking this up just because it looks cute. Playing TinFins is pretty straight forward, but DDFT plays completely different and is far from easy. This is like playing do different decks swapping between them in every matchup. Talking about requiring a huge amount of focus.
Anyway, i have some minor things i would like to ask.
First, you mentioned the following pile. But i am wondering about how you are going to play out this pile and what cards you require more to get it done. I think something like this: the follow on after resolving Doomsday would be Probe > Shelldock hiding Emrakul, cast brainstorm > Draw Petal, Ritual, ToA > put 2 other cards back, pass turn, untap, attack, storm into ToA. This would require (next to being able to cast Doomsday) have 1 Brainstorm and 2 other cards at hand with 1 blue mana available and no land drops this turn. Also you have to know that your opponent cannot disrupt this plan. Is that correct or did you have something else in mind?
Second, i understand the reasoning for black fetchland and all black duals (except for Tundra) and only the basic Swamp. It makes casting Doomsday on lands often more easy, but most of the times i want to go for basic Island and start cantripping while being Waste proof. When i look at your list i feel like i want to replace either a Tundra or a U.Sea for an Island and replace 2 M.Flats for 2 F.Strands. Can you explain your reasoning for not bringing a single Island?
Third, maybe can you explain against which matchup's (archetypes) you want to go DDFT or TinFins in either or both G2/3? And where you mashing your sideboard in your deck regardless of going to play TinFins or DDFT? lol.
Again, a lot of respect for playing this level of difficulty of a deck for so many consecutive round
You're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Ideally, you'd have 2 draws available - saw an SDT and Gitaxian Probe in hand, but it's not required. Tendrils is insurance. Doomsday, Probe into Shelldock, and hide Emrakul. Pass. Next turn, activate Shelldock, cast Emrakul, extra turn trigger, draw Lotus Petal. Pass... to yourself. Draw Dark ritual. Attack with Emrakul for 15. Cast Petal, Ritual, tap SDT to draw Tendrils, cast Tendrils for 6.
You can easily slow roll the pile too, if you want/need. Or make Shelldock, Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Doomsday is extra extra insurance. Don't forget that Shelldock shortens your pile by 1 card and that you have another draw on your extra turn from your Emrakul trigger.
If you want basic Island, then yes, I would run 2 Flats and 2 Strands. I would replace the 3rd Underground Sea with Island in that case. With all of the UR Delver decks everywhere, I was guessing that there would be less Wasteland around in general (and at least in my matches, I was right), and I would rather have the USea than Island. The 4 Flats/4 Delta fetch configuration gives you perfect access to all of your lands in my configuration - when you start adding in Island it gets a little weirder and you will sometimes get screwed by having the wrong fetch (you really need a swamp, both Seas are in play, and you have a Flooded Strand in your hand - sad days).Second, i understand the reasoning for black fetchland and all black duals (except for Tundra) and only the basic Swamp. It makes casting Doomsday on lands often more easy, but most of the times i want to go for basic Island and start cantripping while being Waste proof. When i look at your list i feel like i want to replace either a Tundra or a U.Sea for an Island and replace 2 M.Flats for 2 F.Strands. Can you explain your reasoning for not bringing a single Island?
But one thing to remember is that we do have 4 Lotus Petals and a Chrome Mox, and those can help fix in a pinch as well. Chrome Mox exiling LDV is Underground Sea, after all. I cast cantrips off of Petals now and then as well, particularly when I'm transformed into Doomsday, as you don't need the non-land IMS density as high as you do with the maindeck.
That's a good idea - I'll add a section in the post.Third, maybe can you explain against which matchup's (archetypes) you want to go DDFT or TinFins in either or both G2/3? And where you mashing your sideboard in your deck regardless of going to play TinFins or DDFT? lol.
Again, a lot of respect for playing this level of difficulty of a deck for so many consecutive round
As far as any larger competitive event that I'm taking seriously though, I always shuffle all 15 in and then take them out. Anything else is just laziness and giving away information to your opponent. :)
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)