Is Legacy too fast?

[CorpT]

You're saying that powercreep gave control decks better tools to become FASTER. Legacy has always been fast, but barring Flash stupidity, I believe it had never been as fast as it is now.

Maybe combo is not as fast, but control is much faster now.

What do you mean by control being fast? It kills faster? It gains control faster? What does "fast" even mean? What control decks are you referencing?

[caiomarcos]

What do you mean by control being fast? It kills faster? It gains control faster? What does "fast" even mean? What control decks are you referencing?

It kills faster and it controls faster. Be it an early Batterskull killing you in no time or an early Jace taking control of the game then eventually killing you.

I call them fast because, even being a control deck, they can race other "fast" decks with those tools (Jace and Stoneforge).

[CorpT]

It kills faster and it controls faster. Be it an early Batterskull killing you in no time or an early Jace taking control of the game then eventually killing you.

I call them fast because, even being a control deck, they can race other "fast" decks with those tools (Jace and Stoneforge).

I don't think either of those are particularly fast. Jace on turn 4 (assuming he survives) is 6-7 turn clock assuming no brainstorming or bouncing. SFM on turn 2 (assuming she survives) is a Batterskull attacking on turn 4.

All of that is assuming your opponent isn't doing anything to kill the SFM, attack the Jace, etc...

What is this faster than? Landstill? Sure. Landstill has always been slow. What control decks is this faster than?

[caiomarcos]

I don't think either of those are particularly fast. Jace on turn 4 (assuming he survives) is 6-7 turn clock assuming no brainstorming or bouncing. SFM on turn 2 (assuming she survives) is a Batterskull attacking on turn 4.

All of that is assuming your opponent isn't doing anything to kill the SFM, attack the Jace, etc...

What is this faster than? Landstill? Sure. Landstill has always been slow. What control decks is this faster than?

Every other control deck that has ever existed before Stoneforge and Jace, Standstill included - old fish UWB with Bob and Finkel, every single mono U, every prison deck, every controlish rock sans-SFM, every Counter-Balance etc... heck, UW control used to kill with Decree and Dragon, that is slow. Even control with goyfs had to be much more careful. Any of those decks were slower either to kill or to take control of the game than it takes now with controller Jace or killer SFM.

By making the opponent worry about SFM on turn 2 is already a freaking fast thing for control to do. In all history of magic, during the first 4 turns you would only worry about sticking your own threats agains control, never worring about their proactive plays, because there was none from their part.

Really, that's how I remember it and how I take control as an archetype so of course I might be misunterstanding or forgetting something.

[Moondancerbb]

Every other control deck that has ever existed before Stoneforge and Jace, Standstill included - old fish UWB with Bob and Finkel, every single mono U, every prison deck, every controlish rock sans-SFM, every Counter-Balance etc... heck, UW control used to kill with Decree and Dragon, that is slow. Even control with goyfs had to be much more careful. Any of those decks were slower either to kill or to take control of the game than it takes now with controller Jace or killer SFM.

By making the opponent worry about SFM on turn 2 is already a freaking fast thing for control to do. In all history of magic, during the first 4 turns you would only worry about sticking your own threats agains control, never worring about their proactive plays, because there was none from their part.

Really, that's how I remember it and how I take control as an archetype so of course I might be misunterstanding or forgetting something.

Because static is exactly how we like our game to be. :P With new printings new innovations and more cards coming down into the eternal formats then ever before its still the most exciting format. The pivotal turn in legacy is turn three. There are decks that can go off earlier but usually have a high amount of variance or can be hated out with a proper sideboard.

The simple fact that we often see 5 to 7 arch types in top 9's and around 12 in top 16 tells me its a pretty healthy format.

[caiomarcos]

Because static is exactly how we like our game to be. :P With new printings new innovations and more cards coming down into the eternal formats then ever before its still the most exciting format. The pivotal turn in legacy is turn three. There are decks that can go off earlier but usually have a high amount of variance or can be hated out with a proper sideboard.

The simple fact that we often see 5 to 7 arch types in top 9's and around 12 in top 16 tells me its a pretty healthy format.

I agree. I was just arguing that the format is faster now.
I admit that I miss true control decks a bit, but that does not mean that the format is worse or less healthy now than it was when we had monoU with Rainbow Efreet.

[Vacrix]

You're saying that powercreep gave control decks better tools to become FASTER. Legacy has always been fast, but barring Flash stupidity, I believe it had never been as fast as it is now.

Maybe combo is not as fast, but control is much faster now.

IDK Enchantress seems pretty good against the DTB right now. That and 43 Lands.... Barring Sneak/Show of course. I've seen plenty of games like this go to time. Thats not fast, its slow. It really just depends on the matchup. Now we have a bunch of decks that can protect their combo with Force of Will. So naturally, there are matchups that end pretty quickly. When I go to tournaments though, its not like everyone is finishing before time with 15 minutes to spare. In a vacuum, these decks are faster. When they run into disruption, removal, post-board hate, or an even matchup, things aren't quite as fast. I'd say games still take about the same amount of time from what I've seen.

Also, Legacy could be way faster. We've had combo winters before and Zoo dominated metagames. Right now 7 out of 8 DTB play blue. Granted they can close on your life total quickly now because of Delver but I've seen plenty of non-combo games go to time because there are better cards around nowadays for creating more attrition situations.

[dahcmai]

I do miss the fundamental turn being turn 4. Moat was good times if anything.

It does feel a little fast to me, but I can live with it, if they keep making things to fill the niches like Terminus.