So who uses Underground Sea?

[rxavage]

I need to buy P9 so bad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nah I disagree.

I think the allure of Blue Black is the same as it's always been.

You KNOW that almost no matter what there will be a playable Blue/Black combo deck, almost without fail. Blue gives you filter, black gives you rits, discard, and tutors. In Vintage Blue/Black is also usually the best control colors because blue gives counters and power and black gives tutors, confidant, and discard.

Given any random timeframe in eternal formats I think Blue/Black is the least likely color combination to be useless and the most likely color to have an OP combo deck. I don't think there's been a time in the past 10 years when a blue/black deck wasn't tier 1 in either vintage or legacy. Something you can't say about any other color.

The flaw with this is that Vintage is basically irrelevant next to Legacy. Vintage is a much, much smaller format. And in Legacy blue/black has rarely been the most powerful color combination. While blue has certainly been the dominant color for the majority of Legacy's history, the times when black was second have been very minimal. In fact the only one I can really think of is during the brief Flash era.

Rather, black is often the least powerful color by most measurements, certainly by the number of top placements it puts up. And it rarely gets better than 4th. Underground Sea is pretty clearly the least useful blue dual in Legacy right now, for instance.

[majikal]

you mean... strictly worse shock lands.

They're only worse if you run them out there with no other lands on the board. You can easily get around this by, you know, fetching basics. Turn 2 and on, as long as you have a basic land or another one of these in play, it's functionally identical to an original dual.

[KobeBryan]

To further elaborate. Let us use pictures.

This may be true, but look at how small the vintage market is compared to legacy.

Legacy probably takes up 98% of the duals compared to vintage. And underground sea is probably the least played blue dual in the format.

[Dark Ritual]

I use it quite often, casting brainstorm and dark ritual is great.

Sure in terms of numbers u. sea is used the least out of the blue duals at least, but that's because it's often a 2 of in combo decks. I personally never use 3 in combo decks unless said combo deck is reanimator.

The reason u. sea is the highest priced dual is because of its iconic status. When I think of dual lands the first blue one I think of is u. sea. And no matter what environment you're playing in, playing a deck with underground seas is typically a solid choice.

[nedleeds]

I hate WotC for not making awesome black cards anymore ... Griselbrand doesn't count ... he's a blue card. It's like Necropotence, Dark Confidant and Tendrils have just scarred them for life ... while all these disgusting blue flying Wild Nacatl's, absurd planeswalkers, absurd counter magic (Flusterstorm, MM) just fly out of R and D.

Phyrexian Obliterator is pushing the envelope for them in black these days ... bunch of SJF's as Jesse the Body once said.

[rxavage]

Slinging Underground Sea makes you a sexual tyrannosaurus.

[Solaran_X]

To further elaborate. Let us use pictures.

You forgot Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[Asthereal]

I use Sea a lot.
It's in all of my Storm decks (ANT, TES and Doomsday), my Team America and BUG Control. The last one I rarely play, but I always have one of the others ready to play.

Right now my most used u-Dual is Tropical Island though. I play a lot of Bant, Tempo and NOPRO, and always have my Trops in full use. Still, since Storm is usually the major combo deck out there, and arguably the best choice to play, my guess is Sea will hold it's value (or become even more rediculously expensive) in the near future.

[Technics]

It's basic economics. Vintage used to dictate the price, and USea became the most expensive then. (Look at Goblin Welder 5-7 years ago).

Now if I paid 100 bucks for my Sea, and people are willing to pay 100 bucks for Sea (cause they expect it to be worth that) why would i sell it for less?

It's the same reason Cursed Scroll is still $10 card. Is it as played a Top? No, but 6 years ago, everyone needed a playset for Extended. I remember trying to get them cheap when they rotated, but unless a card is GROSSLY inflated they lose value VERY slow. People are just not willing to part with them less that 0.x% less than they paid.

(See Jace, Goyf, Scroll, Piledriver, Welder etc.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's basic economics. Vintage used to dictate the price, and USea became the most expensive then. (Look at Goblin Welder 5-7 years ago).

Now if I paid 100 bucks for my Sea, and people are willing to pay 100 bucks for Sea (cause they expect it to be worth that) why would i sell it for less?

It's the same reason Cursed Scroll is still $10 card. Is it as played a Top? No, but 6 years ago, everyone needed a playset for Extended. I remember trying to get them cheap when they rotated, but unless a card is GROSSLY inflated they lose value VERY slow. People are just not willing to part with them less that 0.x% less than they paid.

(See Jace, Goyf, Scroll, Piledriver, Welder etc.)

I don't know if downward nominal wage rigidity counts as "basic economics."

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't know if downward nominal wage rigidity counts as "basic economics."

You are saying U Sea is the most expensive because it has always been the most expensive and people are stupid so it will always be the most expensive.

I agree that people are stupid, but that's not why U Sea is the most expensive.

U Sea is and always will be the best dual.

In vintage U Sea is dominant. No need to debate this.

In Legacy U Sea is the best combo dual land and very solid in control or aggro control. 1/2 of the cards banned in Legacy so far were because of UB decks and if I told everyone "So there's this deck that is so broken in Legacy in 2 years it gets a card banned guess 2 colors that are in it and I'll give you $1000." Everyone is going to guess UB.

In Casual if you want to rape your stupid friend's pet decks you want UB combo.

So to recap. UB goes in many Combo, control, and aggro control decks in Legacy. UB are the go to colors in Vintage and always will be. UB owns casual if you are kitchen table (also EDH).

Just because UB isn't the best color combo now doesn't mean UB isn't the best dual land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You are saying U Sea is the most expensive because it has always been the most expensive and people are stupid so it will always be the most expensive.

I agree that people are stupid, but that's not why U Sea is the most expensive.

Not exactly. People behaving in ways that may not seem perfectly rational isn't the same as people being stupid.

U Sea is and always will be the best dual.

This sounds like a religious mantra.

In vintage U Sea is dominant. No need to debate this.

In Legacy U Sea is the best combo dual land and very solid in control or aggro control. 1/2 of the cards banned in Legacy so far were because of UB decks and if I told everyone "So there's this deck that is so broken in Legacy in 2 years it gets a card banned guess 2 colors that are in it and I'll give you $1000." Everyone is going to guess UB.

In Casual if you want to rape your stupid friend's pet decks you want UB combo.

Vintage is irrelevant to the overall price structure (at Vintage's peak popularity but before the rise of Legacy, dual prices were still in the $10-25 range.) in Legacy every other blue dual is more useful and more used, and Mystical Tutor was banned because of a brain fart and not actual power so the argument you have is that Hulk-Flash was really good. Okay. That's a pretty shitty argument on the merits for Underground Sea being in greater demand in Legacy than the duals that currently see much greater play, and have for years.

Also casual doesn't drive dual prices. Maybe EDH does but I don't know if anyone can address if UB is dominant in EDH groups. I suspect not.

Just because UB isn't the best color combo now doesn't mean UB isn't the best dual land.

It's difficult to think by what other merit we could judge what the best dual land is.

[Kich867]

One of the few times I agree with IBA O_O;;. It's really not the best dual and it's perceived status as the best will perpetuate it's price to reflect that. I mean shit look at Goyf. He's by far not the best creature in the format and he's still $100, few other creatures can even come close to costing half of that and most of them are more useful or better.

[dontbiteitholmes]

One of the few times I agree with IBA O_O;;. It's really not the best dual and it's perceived status as the best will perpetuate it's price to reflect that. I mean shit look at Goyf. He's by far not the best creature in the format and he's still $100, few other creatures can even come close to costing half of that and most of them are more useful or better.

Goyf is so high because of Modern though.

It's difficult to think by what other merit we could judge what the best dual land is.

It's proven itself the most useful over time.

U Sea. - Best in Vintage, best in EDH.

In Legacy goes in Combo, Aggro control, and Control decks (only Volc really comes close in this aspect)
Most likely to end up in a broken combo deck.

I don't see a compelling reason for any other dual land to cost more.

[joemauer]

Underground Sea is the best dual.

In Legacy, all the blue duals are about the same in power and usefulness. This waxes and wanes, but generally this is true. All the blue duals are the best duals in Legacy. So Underground Sea is in the top five(usually tied) for Legacy's best dual lands.

In Vintage it is the best dual, possibly will be forever too.

So if we have a dual land that obviously is the best then what happens? That is right. The horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

[Koby]

he horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

Lies! Belcher needs no land!

[lavafrogg]

When did goyf stop being the best creature? Easily splash able, no further commitment needed other than 1G.

As for the underground sea question, the blue duals are the best in the format due to brainstorm and force of will being blue. As soon as they print another OP black card with a low cc underground sea will be the best in legacy, but it casts brainstorm and ritual/duress, what more do you need in vintage/legacy combo?

[dontbiteitholmes]

When did goyf stop being the best creature? Easily splash able, no further commitment needed other than 1G.

As for the underground sea question, the blue duals are the best in the format due to brainstorm and force of will being blue. As soon as they print another OP black card with a low cc underground sea will be the best in legacy, but it casts brainstorm and ritual/duress, what more do you need in vintage/legacy combo?

When Goyf first came out it was by far the best creature ever.
The next closest contender wasn't even close.

Now adays Goyf has a lot of competition in the top tier. Cards like SFM, Ooze, Delver, Snapper, ect. have creeped up the power level of creatures. Now Goyf may still be king in some decks but he loses to Snapper and Mystic in control and Ooze in midrange and is probably even at best with Delver in tempo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Underground Sea is the best dual.

In Legacy, all the blue duals are about the same in power and usefulness. This waxes and wanes, but generally this is true. All the blue duals are the best duals in Legacy. So Underground Sea is in the top five(usually tied) for Legacy's best dual lands.

In Vintage it is the best dual, possibly will be forever too.

So if we have a dual land that obviously is the best then what happens? That is right. The horders and speculators come out in droves and snag up the best land because every eternal format needs lands.

You seem to for some reason think that horders and speculators (and generally, the market,) can't act on a perception that doesn't match reality.

All the blue duals aren't the same power and usefulness in Legacy. Do I have to trot out the charts? I mean I'm not getting new ones but I've done this dance before.

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