I've played your build of this deck a few times online and off. Had much more success in paper, including a 3-0 last night (beating Czech Pile, Maverick, and Miracles). I did beat Lands the one time I played it, but in game 1 I had a triple Deathrite draw and in game 2 I had a triple Delver draw and just countered all his removal haha.
Online I 3-2'd a league before a couple 1-3 drops. Blood Moon appeared much more often in the latter two leagues, and I feel like that's the Grixis decks' adaptation to this deck. As you said, it is insanely good. I am considering a Hydroblast effect somewhere in the 75, possibly supplemented by a basic island but not sure which land I would/should cut. Scrubland won me a game against Choke though. (Actually, Blood Moon is way better than Choke against us).
I also don't own a Liliana, the Last Hope, so I've been playing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I don't think that it's as good in the Grixis matches but it did win the Miracles match for me.
Also you can pry Vindicate from my cold, dead hands. The card is super clutch: other Anglers, Jaces, random manascrew, equipments, etc.
The amount of red cards after boarding is difficult to predict. If they've got Moons, they will be in the deck. If a Miracles or Blade opponent doesn't know your list, they might bring in Pyroblast to counter TNN. If they know the list, they probably won't bring the Blasts. Just countering Cantrips or Delver doesn't seem great. They also might bring one or two additional red sweepers like Kozilek's Return or Izzet Staticaster, but not all lists run those.
Regarding Blood Moon in general: All Delver decks die to a resolved Moon on an empty board. That's just a tradeoff you make if you sleeve up the card Delver of Secrets (outside of UR...). I'd still board in Disenchant if I suspect Moon, but usually our counterspells and discard backed up with pressure should be enough.
I might play Maxtortion's list at a larger German tournament (300-500 people) on the 17th. I was set to play Nicklas' Esper Delver SFM-List and we discussed the build at length in a German forum. I really like the SFM list and got a couple of 5:0 leagues with it, but the deck just can't beat Czech Pile. Ever. If your grindy fair threat (SFM) is so bad against one of the premier control decks in the format that you want to board it out, something is off. Of course, the online metagame is super inbred with Kolaghan's Command decks and I might not run into a single Czech Pile or Grixis Control all day. I'll probably bring both builds with me and decide after the big trial on Saturday.
I played a league the other day and went 4:1, winning against 2x 4c Loam, Grixis Delver and D&T. I lost against Aluren. The list felt good so far. I'd love to fit another Canonist in the board against Storm and especially Food Chain, which is quite popular in Germany. I'd also like another Flusterstorm against the random Burn opponents I always seem to get paired against. But that would probably mess up the sideboarding for the important matchups, so it might not be worth it.
The only change to the maindeck I'll make for sure is cutting the Scrubland for the 3rd Tundra. I made the same swap in the SFM build and never looked back. Whenever I drew the Scrubland in testing, it was just awful. It's nice to fetch as your 3rd land, but I lost more games because I got wasted off blue than I won because I could fetch Scrubland. Even with 3 Tundras, we still have one more land to cast DRS than Grixis Delver has.
Gesendet von meinem FP2 mit Tapatalk
3-1 last night, same list
W Aluren
W Sneak & Show
L Miracles
W UWR twin/stoneblade
Miracles was same player from Monday night but he added Soothsaying/CB package to his deck. That is still a huge pain for Delver decks to beat...
On Hydroblast/red cards: I think Moon is bad enough for us that having a card that can beat it may be worth it. It also has upside in other matches: Burn especially, but it can also nab a K-Command out of a Pile deck (a major source of CA for them), a YP before it gets out of control, Burning Wish, Past in Flames. I suppose Spell Pierce is probably fine in most of the same situations, but it's meta-dependent... I would be more likely to play it online than in paper right now.
With regard to the Scrubland vs Tundra #3, I'm going to copy-paste something I wrote to another good player with the same concern. The TLDR is that it's preference.
"You're right, Scrubland is awkward. Badlands is awkward in Friedman-style 4c Delver for the same reasons. Repeatedly drawing the Trop is not fun and can happen sometimes, same as in Grixis Delver.
To actually improve your % of keepable hands from ~86% to ~89%, every dual needs to be Blue. Jarvis Yu subscribes to this, as well as other notable Legacy deck designers.
The reasons I continue to play Scrubland are as follows:
I'm considering the 19th land is a "bonus" land in order to help you cast your spells as the game progresses. An example is if you have an Underground Sea, Ponder into a Swords to Plowshares, need to remove the opposing threat now, but don't want to get wasted off of Black in order to cast your Gurmag Angler next turn. Similarly, a situation can arise when casting Lingering Souls and don't want to get wasted off of Black for the flashback next turn. These are the kinds of situations where Scrubland shines.
Also, there are a lot of cases where I want access to double Black, but don't want to not have access to White. Combining any two plays of Gurmag + Deathrite + Fatal Push requires two Black sources, as does Liliana, the Last Hope. Scrubland helps increase the Black count slightly while not cutting down on White sources (the reason I wanted to add a 19th land in the first place).
Furthermore, some decks with Wasteland have been bringing in Surgical Extraction to combat Lingering Souls, and I lost a couple of games to getting my Underground Seas extracted. The Scrubland plays around this, to some extent.
All of this said, I'm not sure if the Scrubland is objectively right. For my playstyle, however, it certainly is."
MTGO: Maxtortion
I have been really loving this deck. I do run the scrub land and I think it is helpful because it opens up some great double black spells like hymn to tourach and tombstalker. Here is the list I have been running. I want to add a cannonist or two to the board and maybe another disenchant. Any comments or criticism is definitely appreciated.
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 polluted delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
CREATURES
4 delver
4 Drs
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tomstalker
2 Gurmag Angler
Spells
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtscour
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
4 Force of Will
SIDEBOARD
1 disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Jace the Mind Sculpter
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Nihilism Spellbomb
I'm 8-2 with this deck in paper, but 5-12 with it online. Blood Moon comes up so much more on MTGO. I was leaning towards it for Eternal Extravaganza but now I'm a little shaken sitting at 0-4 in a league losing to Miracles twice, Big Red and D&T. I guess those may just not be very good matchups. Anyone have any ideas as to how to turn it around? How do you board for Miracles?
Are you playing maxtortions 75?
That information would help... I assume you still are?
I am also curious on how his version fares against Miracles. Last time I asked he had dodged that MU so far. Lingering Souls is great, but we are horrid at dealing with resolved JTMS, which is why he plays the SB Vindicate. I decided to just congratulate my opponent and concede once a JTMS resolved against the Wasteland+Daze Deck and I don't have a board that allows me to strike back...
DnT is supposed to be a good MU (and a great one if you're playing the SfM-version).
Mono Red is just high variance and super random. I wouldn't get discouraged losing to that deck as long as it doesn't happen literally all the time in which case I would add 1-2 Hydroblasts.
Yes I am on Maxtortion's version with some small SB changes.
D&T felt OK, it was a close 1-2 where he had T1 vial T2 RIP in game 3. And yes Jace is a horror show, I try to save answers for that or whatever landhate enchantment they are playing (B2B or Moon) but I can never get enough pressure on before that.
I've done a lot of damage with spirit tokens but it's slow. I can never decide whether I want Jitte or not, it feels dead but it's a way to make Souls close quicker. Basically if we don't stick our SB walker we are DOA.
Last weekend i played a 40 player tournament with top 8.
I played the Lingering Souls list. The only difference to Maxtortion i made was cutting the Vindicate and adding a Bitterblossom.
I went 6-0 in the Swiss beating Hive Mind, Death´n´Taxes, Grixis Delver, OmniSneak, Czech Pile and something i forgot.
In the Quarters i beat Infect in a really close match. In the Semis i lost against the OmniSneak guy from Swiss.
If someone wants to know anything about the matches feel free to ask, i just wanted to share some thoughts about the deck.
1) I am very happy with the Maindeck. Scrubland has been good and bad. Lingering Souls is sometimes clunky but most of the time INSANE ^^
2) I am also very happy with the sideboard. Bitterblossom has been good for me, but it does kinda the same thing as Lingering Souls.
7-2 for 12th place at EE7 with a list very similar to Max's. One loss was to some rough mulligans and not drawing a second land against ANT, so I'd say 60% variance and 40% a questionable keep. The other was to Junk Nic Fit, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Beat Grixis Delver and 4c Control twice each, BR Reanimator, UR Delver, and 4c Loam.
Played the following list to a 7-2 finish at the MKM Legacy Mainevent in Hamburg. Little disappointed to miss Top8 after starting 6-0, but I made Modern Top8 (8-0-1) so I really can't complain... My MUs:
2-0 False Cure
2-0 White Eldrazi
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Burn
2-0 Eldrazi
2-1 Elves
1-2 UWr Blade
0-2 Eldrazi
2-0 Czech Pile
My list:
3 Tundra
3 Usea
1 Trop
4 Delta
4 Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Delver
4 DRS
3 SfM
2 TNN
1 Angler
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 StP
2 Push
2 TS
SB:
1 StP
1 PtE
2 Surgical
1 Fluster
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Disenchant
2 Lingering Souls
1 Lili, Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Canonist
1 Containment
@Nicklas: Gratz on your result. I am curious: How is your czech pile matchup/plan? I can imagine Kcommand is a real issue.
General:
I played the Legacy Challenge on Sunday and got beaten up hard. I dropped at 1-3 losing to CzechPile, Miracles and Grixis Delver. I had a lot of flooding and mulligans which was frustrating.
I saw an interesting list in the Challenge piloted by a player called "Heibing". Here is a link: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/763538#paper
The list focusses around hard-to-deal-with creatures with 4 Angler and 4 Souls. I think i will test this some leagues.
Thanks. Good, or at least more luck to you next time!
My Czech Pile MU is negative and the main reason why I guess it makes sense to stick to the Lingering Souls/Gurmag Angler/Thought Scour list online (I don't play MODO). While K.Command is an issue, it's not as bad as people say/think it is.
The plan is to flood the board with a diverse array of threats in order to overwhelm the opponent and kill them before they're able to deal with all of it.
Killing their DRS and making sure their Strix is rather worthless (2 Spell Snare helps a lot) is mandatory.
If we are in a stage of the game where they can flashback K.Command we lost anyways or kill them in the back swing, but that's another story.
I did not test much but did some theory crafting on how to at least have a fair shot against Czech Pile. While I came up with a few plans, what I ended up doing in the 9th round of the tournament when I actually played the MU was different from what I had previously planned to do:
In:
1 Fluster
2 Lingering Souls
1 Lili, Last Hope
2 Zealous Persecution
Out:
2 Daze
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
On the draw. Luckily there was no third game.
My previous SB plan included boarding out the SfM package, but I felt like it's good enough to punish my opponent if they stumble (they did) and the equipments are actually really good against their deck if I am able to connect with Jitte once or keep up mana to bounce the Batterskull. Trading SfM+Skull vs. K.Command is actually not a bad trade. Not saying SfM is good against them, but it's good enough and better than other cards. We just need a high density of threats...
I like that list. No Delver so I guess this is the wrong thread to discuss it in depth? But: The Bayou seems wrong.
I'm down to 1 Thought Scour in MXG's list right now, and while I like the idea of an Esper Control deck, I think you're giving up a lot by dropping Delvers and Wastelands but having no real top-end other than Souls. That list seems like it wants Jace somewhere.
Hey all,
Recently picked up Esper Delver after my Grixis Delver deck became stone unplayable in the Melbourne meta.
Made some minor tweaks to Max's OG list and went 3-1 tonight for equal 1st placed at a small weekly.
Round 1: Czech Pile (2-1)
Round 2: UB Reanimator (2-1)
Round 3: UR Thing in the Ice/Control
Round 4: Sneak and Show (1-2)
//Creature (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
//Instant (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thought Scour
//Sorcery (7)
3 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
//Land (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
The spellbomb was just a last minute decision that I don't fully endorse. It turns out Lingering Souls just absolutely mauls Czech Pile (which was a nice change from being mauled by it when playing Grixis) so that card will probably become Invasive Surgery or a Collective Brutality or something to help what feels like a fairly sketchy combo matchup.
Anyway, deck is super sweet and I think it's being massively slept on right now, deck feels excellently positioned to beat up on all the decks that beat Grixis Delver while also beating Grixis Delver.
Hello All:
I've been testing the following list and I am having success with this more tempo focused list.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
Sb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Path to Exile
1 Null Rod
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