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Thread: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

  1. #1
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    Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Hello everybody, I've been digging around to understand exactly how the timing of miracle is working but am having a little bit of trouble despite looking at the comprehensive rules. Below are the relevant rules I have found and how they are working with miracle, and I would like to clarify my understand of them in regards to the following situation:

    You have drawn no cards during your opponent's turn and you cast Brainstorm, with the first of the three cards drawn being a Terminus.

    Since Terminus has is a miracle card, we need the miracle rules,

    Quote Originally Posted by MTG Comprehensive Rules
    702.92a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

    702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.
    For complete understanding of linked abilities, here is the relevant linked ability section,

    603.10. Some objects have a static ability that's linked to a triggered ability. (See rule 607, "Linked Abilities.") These objects combine both abilities into one paragraph, with the static ability first, followed by the triggered ability. A very few objects have triggered abilities which are written with the trigger condition in the middle of the ability, rather than at the beginning.
    So rule 603.10 tells us that the Terminus has the static ability "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn," as you can do this whenever the condition is true. Then there is a linked trigger ability, "When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

    Okay, with that in mind let's say you cast brainstorm. We know that during the resolution the Miracle ability will trigger if you reveal Terminus. For this triggered abilities happening during the resolution of a spell or ability I found the following relevant rules,

    603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.

    603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
    So during the resolution of brainstorm you draw one card. This is the first card you’ve drawn this turn, so Terminus’s static ability comes into play, allowing you reveal it from your hand. Then the second clause on terminus is triggered. However, from rule 603, this trigger just happens but since we’re currently in the resolution of brainstorm no play has priority, so this trigger cannot be put on the stack yet. Terminus remains revealed as you draw your second, and third cards.

    Next, if neither of the two cards you put back on top of your library for the brainstorm are the currently revealed Terminus, you may put Terminus’s triggered ability onto the stack.

    On the other hand, if one of the cards put back was terminus, I am a bit confused. Terminus has left your hand, so per the Miracle rule 702.92b it is no longer revealed. However, the trigger condition for Terminus was still met since it was revealed. So, does any trigger go on this stack for this? I can’t find a rule that would prevent the Terminus trigger from going on the stack. The trigger only happens on the reveal of Terminus, and the triggered condition of Miracle doesn't say that the card itself needs to be currently revealed for the ability to trigger.

    So, if this trigger goes on the stack still, why are you no longer able to cast the Terminus sitting on top of your library? I would guess that the Terminus becomes some "new object" when it becomes unrevealed by going on top of your library, although I could not find a rule to say this. In fact, if there is no rule saying that the Terminus on your library becomes a new object, then the below rule relating to the revealing of cards may contradict the miracle rule about the reveal,

    701.13a To reveal a card, show that card to all players for a brief time. If an effect causes a card to be revealed, it remains revealed for as long as necessary to complete the parts of the effect that card is relevant to. If the cost to cast a spell or activate an ability includes revealing a card, the card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it the time it leaves the stack.
    Since miracle rule 702.92b says the card is unrevealed when leaving the hand, but if a triggered ability still goes on the stack rule 701.13a and there is nothing stopping it from being cast, it makes me think that Terminus needs to remain revealed, even in your library, so that you to have an opportunity to cast it. That said, it seems silly to me to cast a Terminus from your library, but I just can't find the rule which prevents this from happening. So there has to be some rule either preventing the original trigger from going on the stack, or from separating the connection between the Terminus on top of your library from the same card which made the triggered ability in the first place.

    I don't think it has to do with the fact that you can't cast Terminus from your library, since the below rule does not specify the spell has to come from the hand, but merely suggests that's where spells are usually cast from. Additionally, the Miracle rules themselves don't specify that the card has to be cast from your hand either.

    601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect.
    Dealing with what happens during the resolution of the miracle trigger is pretty quickly described with the following rule,

    608.2f If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, he or she may activate mana abilities before taking that action. If an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, he or she does so by putting that spell on top of the stack, then continuing to cast it by following the steps in rules 601.2a-h, except no player receives priority after it's cast. The currently resolving spell or ability then continues to resolve, which may include casting other spells this way. No other spells can normally be cast and no other abilities can normally be activated during resolution.
    So, per this rule, while the miracle trigger is resolving you may choose to cast the Terminus by following all the steps for casting a spell. Only after Terminus is put on the stack or you choose not to cast it has the miracle trigger finished resolving.

    Anyway, I know this is very technical, but I'd appreciate some help in clarifying where my understanding of these interactions is going wrong. Thanks in advance.
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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    702.92b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand [...]
    This, maybe? I don't actually know but that's the first thing that struck me.
    Would love to have cdr comment on this.
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  3. #3

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    - 701.13a is speaking in general terms. 701.13a has nothing to do with effects that specify when a card stops being revealed.

    - A miracle card becomes a new object if it leaves your hand (400.7). The miracle trigger can no longer find it if it leaves your hand.

    - The miracle trigger gets put on the stack as soon as a player would get priority, before anyone can do anything. You seem to have confused when triggers go on the stack above.

    - The miracle trigger will remain on the stack and resolve, but you'll be unable to cast the miracle card when the trigger resolves.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Ahh, 400.7 was what I was looking for, thank you. That was my assumption, but I was having trouble finding the rule.

    How did I confuse when the miracle trigger goes on the stack? I said that it goes on the stack when you're done putting two cards back for brainstorm. I guess technically I didn't say after brainstorm was done resolving, but brainstorm should be done resolving after you put your cards back, and then players would be getting priority.
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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by Valtrix View Post
    How did I confuse when the miracle trigger goes on the stack? I said that it goes on the stack when you're done putting two cards back for brainstorm. I guess technically I didn't say after brainstorm was done resolving, but brainstorm should be done resolving after you put your cards back, and then players would be getting priority.
    Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  6. #6

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    To piggyback on this topic, I have another question regarding miracles.

    Let's say I draw a Terminus during my draw step. I reveal it before putting it into my hand (to prove that this is the card I just drew), intending to cast it with the miracle trigger. In response, my opponent casts Vendilion Clique, and attempts to remove this card "from my hand". My question is, what happens if I have a second Terminus in hand? Since the miracled-Terminus is technically in my hand, does it matter which Terminus is targeted with Clique? Can he choose the "wrong" one?

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by cips View Post
    To piggyback on this topic, I have another question regarding miracles.

    Let's say I draw a Terminus during my draw step. I reveal it before putting it into my hand (to prove that this is the card I just drew), intending to cast it with the miracle trigger. In response, my opponent casts Vendilion Clique, and attempts to remove this card "from my hand". My question is, what happens if I have a second Terminus in hand? Since the miracled-Terminus is technically in my hand, does it matter which Terminus is targeted with Clique? Can he choose the "wrong" one?
    It does matter which Terminus he chooses since the Miracle trigger is only attached to the one that was just drawn.

  8. #8

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by cips View Post
    To piggyback on this topic, I have another question regarding miracles.

    Let's say I draw a Terminus during my draw step. I reveal it before putting it into my hand (to prove that this is the card I just drew), intending to cast it with the miracle trigger. In response, my opponent casts Vendilion Clique, and attempts to remove this card "from my hand". My question is, what happens if I have a second Terminus in hand? Since the miracled-Terminus is technically in my hand, does it matter which Terminus is targeted with Clique? Can he choose the "wrong" one?
    Depends on what you mean - he can choose to take the Terminus not tied to the Miracle trigger if he wants, but he always knows which is which. Even when he's looking at your hand with Clique, the revealed Terminus is knowable.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  9. #9

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    Depends on what you mean - he can choose to take the Terminus not tied to the Miracle trigger if he wants, but he always knows which is which. Even when he's looking at your hand with Clique, the revealed Terminus is knowable.
    I guess this was the part that confused me. I assumed that if both Termini were in hand, it was impossible to know which one was miracled. Thank you.

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    - 701.13a is speaking in general terms. 701.13a has nothing to do with effects that specify when a card stops being revealed.

    - A miracle card becomes a new object if it leaves your hand (400.7). The miracle trigger can no longer find it if it leaves your hand.

    - The miracle trigger gets put on the stack as soon as a player would get priority, before anyone can do anything. You seem to have confused when triggers go on the stack above.

    - The miracle trigger will remain on the stack and resolve, but you'll be unable to cast the miracle card when the trigger resolves.
    So, still a bit vague on this one.

    If I'm following right, what you're saying is that if a Terminus is the first card drawn off of a Brainstorm you can not put that trigger on the stack until the Brainstorm has fully resolved, correct?

    If that is correct, does that mean that the Terminus trigger is no longer valid since it has left the "Miracle Zone" during the resolution of the Brainstorm? Or does that mean that the Terminus trigger is valid and can then be cast for the Miracle cost?

    I have a guy in my meta who plays this and I better figure this one out correctly before he does.

  11. #11

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleTim68 View Post
    If that is correct, does that mean that the Terminus trigger is no longer valid since it has left the "Miracle Zone" during the resolution of the Brainstorm? Or does that mean that the Terminus trigger is valid and can then be cast for the Miracle cost?
    Not sure what you're asking, but the answer is probably above. There is no "miracle zone", I don't know what that means, zones are specific designated things. If you put the miracle card back, you can't cast it. If you don't put it back, you can cast it.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Ok, so you are saying that a Miracle card CAN be played of off a Brainstorm, as long as the Miracle card is the first card drawn and does not get put back on top of the deck.

    I had been told that Miracle cards had to be played when reveiled and before going to your hand. I was told once they go to your hand the Miracle ability is no longer valid. That's why I was confused about the Brainstorm interaction. Because to complete the resolution of the Brainstorm, the Miracle card would end up in the person's hand.

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleTim68 View Post
    Ok, so you are saying that a Miracle card CAN be played of off a Brainstorm, as long as the Miracle card is the first card drawn and does not get put back on top of the deck.

    I had been told that Miracle cards had to be played when reveiled and before going to your hand. I was told once they go to your hand the Miracle ability is no longer valid. That's why I was confused about the Brainstorm interaction. Because to complete the resolution of the Brainstorm, the Miracle card would end up in the person's hand.
    Miracle is considered to be in your hand at all times while it is revealed. If for whatever reason it leaves your hand, then it stops being revealed and moves to the appropriate zone. You can only cast the Miracle card while it's revealed and when its trigger resolves (both must be true). If the Miracle spell gets put back with Brainstorm, then it ceases to be in your hand, and would no longer be revealed.
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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleTim68 View Post
    Ok, so you are saying that a Miracle card CAN be played of off a Brainstorm, as long as the Miracle card is the first card drawn and does not get put back on top of the deck.

    I had been told that Miracle cards had to be played when reveiled and before going to your hand. I was told once they go to your hand the Miracle ability is no longer valid. That's why I was confused about the Brainstorm interaction. Because to complete the resolution of the Brainstorm, the Miracle card would end up in the person's hand.
    All cards are drawn one at a time. You reveal a miracle card as you draw it (you look at it and choose whether to reveal it before it touches your hand).
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    All cards are drawn one at a time. You reveal a miracle card as you draw it (you look at it and choose whether to reveal it before it touches your hand).
    Exactly. Don't put it in your hand and then try to reveal it. A judge will stop you and tell you it's too late. You are allowed to think about revealing the card you just drew. Do as follows: draw the card, look at it, put it face down on the table (away from your hand), look at your hand, think for a few seconds, then grab the card and either reveal it or put it in your hand not revealing it. If someone knows you're on the Miracles deck, you should do this every draw, if you have time for it in your round. In that way no-one can tell what you drew, or be fooled into thinking you drew a Miracle when you didn't, and miss with Vendilion Clique.

    Just to be clear, these are the phases:
    When you reveal the Miracle card, the trigger goes to the stack. Players may Stifle the trigger, or use Vendilion Clique to send your card away. If that happens, no Miracle for you. Stifle makes the card go to your hand without enabling you to cast it for it's Miracle cost, but you may later still 'hardcast it'. Clique makes the card go away, so you cannot cast it anymore when the Miracle trigger resolves (it is no longer in your hand then). You just draw the new card from Clique.
    If the Miracle trigger resolves, you get to play your card for it's Miracle cost. Then players can still respond to it being cast.

    So in general there's about a thousand ways to prevent Miracles being cast succesfully.

    About the Brainstorm:
    Say you play a Brainstorm during your opponent's turn. The first card is a Terminus. You should grab the first card, look at it before you put it with the other cards in your hand. Again, you can put it face down on the table for a sec if you like. If you want to play it, you reveal the Terminus. The trigger goes on the stack, but before it resolves you must finish the Brainstorm effect. So after you reveal it, you draw two more cards, then you put two cards from your hand onto your library (don;t put the Terminus back, then you cannot play it that turn!). When Brainstorm is completely resolved, your opponent and yourself get the chance to respond to the Miracle trigger of Terminus (which is still resolved, and counts as being in your hand because that's where cards go if you draw them). When the trigger resolves, you check where Terminus is. If no-one used an effect to remove it from your hand, you get to play it for it's Miracle cost.

    I hope this is clear, because I don;t think I can explain more clearly.

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Thanks guys.

    Like I said, I don't play it but a guy in my meta does so I wanted to be sure I know the rules when I face him.

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    I wonder about entreat the angels. When you play it for its miracle cost, what is its converted manacost? If you miracle for x=2 is its mana cost when it is on the stack 7? Seems like an important interaction against counterbalance.

  18. #18
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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Once you choose X, it gets locked in for all instances of X on the card. In your example, the converted mana cost would be 7.

  19. #19

    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    If someone knows you're on the Miracles deck, you should do this every draw, if you have time for it in your round. In that way no-one can tell what you drew, or be fooled into thinking you drew a Miracle when you didn't, and miss with Vendilion Clique.
    This is somehow flawed reasoning as they have no reasons to play Clique unless they do it in response to the Miracle trigger (possibly bluffing in some cornercases when you draw Terminus, decide to hardcast it so you bypass the Miracle into Clique business but then you do not really want to hesitate even for second to bluff Miracle). So you can hardly cheat miracle against Clique. However, the first part I agree 100%. Pausing for a second, or just looking at the top card before you move it from deck to Hand works out great as it can make opponent think you drew Miracle you don't want to cast just yet, or want to BS + fetch ship away later on.

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    Re: Understanding the miracle trigger in-depth

    So if i cast brainstorm, draw miracle as my first card, can i announce, then crack fetch and use the mana from the fetched land to cast terminus? Not sure how the order goes.

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