[EDH] Animar, Soul of Elements

[ColtonisWright]

Quick question:

I was talking with some friends today and it seemed like Pact of Negation is a pretty key card in the deck. I mean, it's basically another FoW without the card loss if your going to combo out with Kiki-Jiki. Sure, you can lose the game if you play it with 5 lands and they blow one up but for the most part its a just a solid counterspell.

I was thinking something like:

+ Pact to Negation

- Stolen Identity

If you were to add in the card, what would you take out?

[Kuma]

That's a tough question. Probably either Sylvan Safekeeper, Spellskite, Stolen Identity, Stranglehold, or Hunting Wilds. I wouldn't want to lose any of those cards, but you're right that Pact of Negation should probably be in the deck.

[ColtonisWright]

I would say Spellskite/Sylvan Safekeeper. Personally, i'm doing the Stolen Identity because I already have the foils of the other two and I think its a fairly slow card in it of itself... But I think Stranglehold is pretty solid if you have a dead hand and need to stall them out for a few turns. It also shuts down any fetchlands they may have if you go T1 Land --> Sol Ring/Crypt, T2 Land --> Strangehold.

[Amon Amarth]

That's a tough question. Probably either Sylvan Safekeeper, Spellskite, Stolen Identity, Stranglehold, or Hunting Wilds. I wouldn't want to lose any of those cards, but you're right that Pact of Negation should probably be in the deck.

Maybe Safekeeper? Well, it's not terrible or anything, it does protect Animar from some spot removal he doesn't resist like Chaos Warp and Beast Within as well as immunity for your combo dorks. It doesn't solve the issue of mass removal, obviously.

Stranglehold is way too good to not play. If you get it down some decks can't function at all. As a combo deck you don't really want to overload on cards that don't help you with plan A but this guy is too good to pass up.

I like ramp so I'd keep Hunting Wilds. Do you find yourself with too much ramp? Your list isn't especially heavy on it.

Stolen Identity seems like the weakest card here. It's a good value card but it really just makes it so people get more value out of wiping your board. If you want to get value out of having random dorks you might as well run CRATERHOOF BEHEMOTH which has an immediate impact on the board as well as probably just winning you the game. Of the cards presented, Stolen Identity seems like the worst one.

EDIT: Looking through your list the weakest cards seem to be Gamble and Signal the Clans. I've had mixed experiences with them, though I imagine they'd be better in a combo-centric deck. So that's also a possibility.

Have you considered running Body Double? It's a additional way to combo out if Palinchron is dead and Animar has a few counters. Space is tight, though.

Just a few thoughts. :)

[Kuma]

Maybe Safekeeper? Well, it's not terrible or anything, it does protect Animar from some spot removal he doesn't resist like Chaos Warp and Beast Within as well as immunity for your combo dorks. It doesn't solve the issue of mass removal, obviously.

While Sylvan Safekeeper does protect combo dorks, giving them shroud in response to removal in response to the activation means I have to wait a turn cycle to try again. I'm not going to cut him, but Spellskite is often better. #HexproofSylvanSafekeeperinM14

I like ramp so I'd keep Hunting Wilds. Do you find yourself with too much ramp? Your list isn't especially heavy on it.

I don't think I have too much ramp, but land ramp is plan B. If I can't combo with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Deceiver Exarch, then I usually try to ramp into a Palinchron combo or Tooth and Nail. I think I could do without Hunting Wilds, but I'm going to keep it for now.

Stolen Identity seems like the weakest card here. It's a good value card but it really just makes it so people get more value out of wiping your board. If you want to get value out of having random dorks you might as well run CRATERHOOF BEHEMOTH which has an immediate impact on the board as well as probably just winning you the game. Of the cards presented, Stolen Identity seems like the worst one.

I agree, but since I've never cast Stolen Identity in the deck, I at least want to play a game or two with it before I cut it. I don't ever have enough creatures to kill the table with Craterhoof Behemoth unless I'm way, way ahead at which point I don't need him.

EDIT: Looking through your list the weakest cards seem to be Gamble and Signal the Clans. I've had mixed experiences with them, though I imagine they'd be better in a combo-centric deck. So that's also a possibility.

You've had mixed experiences with cards having a random element?

In all seriousness, Gamble has been nothing short of phenomenal even if you do occasionally discard the card you wanted. If you look at the primer, there are several very strong Signal the Clans piles including Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Zealous Conscripts, and Shrieking Drake/Dream Stalker/Man-o'-War. No matter what you get with those piles, it's what you want. It's pretty hard for Signal the Clans not to get you something you want.

Have you considered running Body Double? It's a additional way to combo out if Palinchron is dead and Animar has a few counters. Space is tight, though.

I've thought about it, but it's really a corner-case card. Like you said, space is tight.

Just a few thoughts. :)

Much appreciated.

[ColtonisWright]

"I agree, but since I've never cast Stolen Identity in the deck, I at least want to play a game or two with it before I cut it. I don't ever have enough creatures to kill the table with Craterhoof Behemoth unless I'm way, way ahead at which point I don't need him."



In my cases, Stolen Identity has been just too slow to run. It doesn't really help with your described Plan A to ramp into Kiki Combo, and it doesn't really help Palinchron. Its a pretty nice value card, but I think for the deck there are better cards to run (Like Pact of Negation for example, Wood Elves, JTMS, Avenger of Zendikar).

[Amon Amarth]

While Sylvan Safekeeper does protect combo dorks, giving them shroud in response to removal in response to the activation means I have to wait a turn cycle to try again. I'm not going to cut him, but Spellskite is often better. #HexproofSylvanSafekeeperinM14



I don't think I have too much ramp, but land ramp is plan B. If I can't combo with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Deceiver Exarch, then I usually try to ramp into a Palinchron combo or Tooth and Nail. I think I could do without Hunting Wilds, but I'm going to keep it for now.



I agree, but since I've never cast Stolen Identity in the deck, I at least want to play a game or two with it before I cut it. I don't ever have enough creatures to kill the table with Craterhoof Behemoth unless I'm way, way ahead at which point I don't need him.



You've had mixed experiences with cards having a random element?

In all seriousness, Gamble has been nothing short of phenomenal even if you do occasionally discard the card you wanted. If you look at the primer, there are several very strong Signal the Clans piles including Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Zealous Conscripts, and Shrieking Drake/Dream Stalker/Man-o'-War. No matter what you get with those piles, it's what you want. It's pretty hard for Signal the Clans not to get you something you want.



I've thought about it, but it's really a corner-case card. Like you said, space is tight.



Much appreciated.

Oh crap, I totally missed that interaction. What a non-bo. This is why we can't have nice things. That does make it pretty bad. Sitting with a Kiki and Exarch in play hoping you untap, nay, hoping you are even alive to see your next turn seems unlikely.

I agree with your logic. Keep Hunting Wilds until something much more compelling comes along.

You have 32 dorks, many of which are combo dorks that don't beat down very well. I think that if you have a free slot you really, really should try out Craterhoof Behemoth. I've run it in decks with fewer creatures, although, admittedly most of them also had token generators. Keep it in the back of your mind. It's sorta a good stuff card here because you aren't really trying to assemble a swarm of creatures but if you someone disrupts your combo you can still smash 'em. Progenitor Mimic somewhat fulfills the role of a dominating board card but it is also cheaper and you can cast it if your board is empty, granted the board can't be completely empty but you get what I'm saying. Anyways, yeah test out that cipher spell. Maybe it's super sweet! I've been surprised by quite a few cards that seemed mediocre or terrible in theory that turned out pretty badass.

I have no idea what you mean :D I would never play cards like that! Tee hee!

[ColtonisWright]

Out of curiosity,

I think Lotus Cobra seems like a better fit then Progenitor Mimic / Mana Reflection.

The mimic seems a bit too slow, and the reflection always seems win-more, 6 mana is more then enough for the deck.

Lotus Cobra provides value for each fetchland and ramps really really well.

[Kuma]

Out of curiosity,

I think Lotus Cobra seems like a better fit then Progenitor Mimic / Mana Reflection.

The mimic seems a bit too slow, and the reflection always seems win-more, 6 mana is more then enough for the deck.

Lotus Cobra provides value for each fetchland and ramps really really well.

You maybe right about Progenitor Mimic. I've been rethinking the deck and a lot of the late game stuff often gets stuck in my hand. I don't know about Mana Reflection though. I don't think I've ever lost if I've untapped with it on the battlefield.

Not sure Lotus Cobra is the best ramp spell we could add. For example, I'll bet Birds of Paradise makes the same amount of mana on average for one mana less.

[JA_Mr_K]

So after reading through this thread I felt compelled to create an account to share my experiences with Animar, and hopefully lend a little advice. To begin with, towards the beginning of your thread you asked for ways to turn two Animar that don't end up being one-hit wonders; have you considered Mox Diamond and/or Exploration. They are amazing as you get repeated use from them, and (if you were to go the spirit guide route) Mox Diamond may even allow for a turn 1 Animar. As for Exploration, my last deck of note was Azusa before the 'Prime Time' banning, and I love those effects; I actually play Azusa in my list.

Another card that I would suggest for added combo shenanigans is Cloudstone Curio. More often than not, I win solely because of this card. I run it alongside Alluren, so an average turn with these two may look like this: Animar has, say, two counters. Cloudstone Curio is on board, with Alluren. Cast Peregrine Drake for 3, untap 5 lands, bounce nothing. Animar bumps to 3 counters. Cast Elvish Visionary for free. Draw a card, bump Animar to 4, bounce Peregrine Drake. Rinse and repeat for Infinite Mana, draw whole deck, cast Kiki-Mite win. Now this is a somewhat optimal board/hand state, but honestly I am never disappointed to see Curio. It's just too much fun, and too powerful in this deck. It turns any "free spell" such as the Drake or Cloud of Faeries (with an artifact creature) into Infinite Mana. It also allows for some interesting interactions with Azusa, should you play her, as bouncing her in and out means you can repeatedly play 'two additional lands' for every time she is cast. In Animar, with your Vorinclex and Mana Reflection, this typically amounts to infinite mana also, since you can bounce two lands for every two lands you play, and replay them with a new Azusa's ability.

The last scenario also brings up the reason why I play Soul of the Harvest, Primordial Sage, and a Garruk's Packleader as well. My Animar operates under the 'What the hell is he doing until it's too late' Category. I find that tutors broadcast my intentions far too easily, and it ends up being much easier for my game plan to simply be: sandbag for a turn or two, cast Soul, Sage, or Packleader, then hit an infinite mana loop like Palinchron to draw my entire deck and win. Drawing a Fierce Empath typically assures that once I get to 7 mana everyone dies, and most people don't see it coming.

From what I've seen of your list, I'd say that you don't actually need to change anything, but if you're looking for a route that's harder to detect or disrupt, I'd suggest Curio/more Soul of the Harvest effects, as they allow you to simply win from nowhere, and aren't particularly large targets on the board until it's too late. If you'd like my list, let me know and I'll go ahead and post it on here. Otherwise, thanks for reading!

[ColtonisWright]

I'd suggest Curio/more Soul of the Harvest effects, as they allow you to simply win from nowhere, and aren't particularly large targets on the board until it's too late. If you'd like my list, let me know and I'll go ahead and post it on here. Otherwise, thanks for reading!

Winning from nowhere is pretty good, but after awhile your playgroup/LGS will catch onto your deck being 'combo heavy/win out of nowhere' and they will focus you regardless. I would rather not sacrifice the consistency of tutors for spontaneity. However, Exploration seems like a cool card I'm going to put in the Animar build I run and maybe another deck.

You should run Glimpse of Nature if your running a Curio combo.

[Kuma]

So after reading through this thread I felt compelled to create an account to share my experiences with Animar, and hopefully lend a little advice. To begin with, towards the beginning of your thread you asked for ways to turn two Animar that don't end up being one-hit wonders; have you considered Mox Diamond and/or Exploration. They are amazing as you get repeated use from them, and (if you were to go the spirit guide route) Mox Diamond may even allow for a turn 1 Animar. As for Exploration, my last deck of note was Azusa before the 'Prime Time' banning, and I love those effects; I actually play Azusa in my list.

I've moved away from trying to power out a turn two Animar, Soul of Elements. You have to run a lot of weak cards to do it, and doing so makes you the first person to be scary at the table, leading to tons of hate cards pointed your way.

Another card that I would suggest for added combo shenanigans is Cloudstone Curio. More often than not, I win solely because of this card. I run it alongside Alluren, so an average turn with these two may look like this: Animar has, say, two counters. Cloudstone Curio is on board, with Alluren. Cast Peregrine Drake for 3, untap 5 lands, bounce nothing. Animar bumps to 3 counters. Cast Elvish Visionary for free. Draw a card, bump Animar to 4, bounce Peregrine Drake. Rinse and repeat for Infinite Mana, draw whole deck, cast Kiki-Mite win. Now this is a somewhat optimal board/hand state, but honestly I am never disappointed to see Curio. It's just too much fun, and too powerful in this deck. It turns any "free spell" such as the Drake or Cloud of Faeries (with an artifact creature) into Infinite Mana. It also allows for some interesting interactions with Azusa, should you play her, as bouncing her in and out means you can repeatedly play 'two additional lands' for every time she is cast. In Animar, with your Vorinclex and Mana Reflection, this typically amounts to infinite mana also, since you can bounce two lands for every two lands you play, and replay them with a new Azusa's ability.

I've found Cloudstone Curio to be a "win more" card. I've also moved away from convoluted, three-plus card combos as you have to be pretty far ahead to get them to work and they are difficult to assemble. Also, as of July 14th, when the M14 rules changes take effect, the Azusa, Lost but Seeking trick won't work.

From what I've seen of your list, I'd say that you don't actually need to change anything, but if you're looking for a route that's harder to detect or disrupt, I'd suggest Curio/more Soul of the Harvest effects, as they allow you to simply win from nowhere, and aren't particularly large targets on the board until it's too late.

I usually "win from nowhere" with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Deceiver Exarch combo. It's not too tough with all the tricks the deck can do to cast both pieces, and even tutor for one, all in one turn.

If you'd like my list, let me know and I'll go ahead and post it on here. Otherwise, thanks for reading!

I'd love to see your list.

[wcm8]

Thassa, God of the Sea solves the problem of looking for a way to make Animar unblockable. The other big advantages: indestructible, occasionally will be a 5/5 creature, Scry 1 every upkeep is useful, and the unblockable function is repeatable for your other fatties. Not only that, but as a 'creature' it will typically only cost one blue mana.

Bident of Thassa probably isn't good enough to justify a slot, but it does essentially duplicate Edric, Spymaster of Trest.

Has anyone been working on this deck lately? I'm trying to find that sweet spot of competitive edge, while not being completely anti-social or broadcasting its power too obviously and thus drawing immediate attention. I would also like to have some utility as well -- it seems to be me that the deck is lacking a way to deal with opposing graveyard shenanigans. Would something like Loaming Shaman be worthwhile? And how about other utility creatures -- Bane of Progress seems like a pretty powerful option (although we may be hurt given the number of enchantments the typical Animar deck runs).

Prophet of Kruphix is too good to pass up in my opinion.

I also wonder about adding some defensive cards to the mix. Crawlspace is something I've considered.

I think the deck could use more Basic Lands. My playgroup isn't afraid to play hosers like Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Ruination, etc.

[Kuma]

Thassa, God of the Sea solves the problem of looking for a way to make Animar unblockable. The other big advantages: indestructible, occasionally will be a 5/5 creature, Scry 1 every upkeep is useful, and the unblockable function is repeatable for your other fatties. Not only that, but as a 'creature' it will typically only cost one blue mana.

Scry 1 in your upkeep is a pretty weak ability in EDH. Thassa, God of the Sea is a marginally better Think Tank and that card isn't even close to playable.

[cards]Bident of Thassa probably isn't good enough to justify a slot, but it does essentially duplicate Edric, Spymaster of Trest.

Yeah, it's probably not worth the slot. If it were tutorable maybe.

Has anyone been working on this deck lately? I'm trying to find that sweet spot of competitive edge, while not being completely anti-social or broadcasting its power too obviously and thus drawing immediate attention. I would also like to have some utility as well -- it seems to be me that the deck is lacking a way to deal with opposing graveyard shenanigans. Would something like Loaming Shaman be worthwhile? And how about other utility creatures -- Bane of Progress seems like a pretty powerful option (although we may be hurt given the number of enchantments the typical Animar deck runs).

I have, but I don't think we have the same goals in mind. I'm trying to make the deck as powerful as possible. I haven't needed an answer to graveyards, but Loaming Shaman or Scavenging Ooze are probably the best answers.

Prophet of Kruphix is too good to pass up in my opinion.

I dunno. I thought it looked slow and gimmicky, but maybe it's worth it.

I also wonder about adding some defensive cards to the mix. Crawlspace is something I've considered.

Best defense is win the game.

I think the deck could use more Basic Lands. My playgroup isn't afraid to play hosers like Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Ruination, etc.

Sure. If you're running into those cards, upping the basic land count is probably wise. I'd probably start cutting Flooded Grove, the INN/M10 Duals and painlands.

Update:

- Progenitor Mimic
- Stolen Identity
- Sakashima the Impostor
- Mana Reflection
- Equilibrium
- Aluren
- Rootbound Crag
- Hinterland Harbor
- Sulfur Falls

+ Breaching Hippocamp
+ Pact of Negation
+ Swan Song
+ Bane of Progress
+ Lotus Cobra
+ Cyclonic Rift
+ Karplusan Forest
+ Yavimaya Coast
+ Shivan Reef

Progenitor Mimic and Stolen Identity were too slow to be worth the card slots. Sakashima the Impostor wasn't really worth it either as the deck didn't need as many clones post legend rule update. Mana Reflection was also too slow and situational, and it was easier to tutor for Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger if I needed the effect. I never so much as bounced a single creature with Equilibrium. I can count the number of times Aluren was good on one hand.

Breaching Hippocamp provides another card that combos with Kiki-Jiki. Swan Song and Pact of Negationare efficient counterspells that are good at protecting the combo with a negligable drawback. The deck didn't have any ways to answer artifacts or enchantments, and lo and behold we get Bane of Progress, probably the strongest answer yet. Lotus Cobra is a nutty, nutty card and I can't believe I didn't realize this earlier. Cyclonic Rift is a super solid card, and it's absence was an oversight.

I swapped out the INN/M10 duals for painlands, as the occasional coming in tapped was a far bigger drawback than a few points of life.

Updated first post.

[wcm8]

A few cards I don't really like in your current list:

-Sylvan Tutor - the fact that it's a sorcery is a problem. It broadcasts your plans for the next turn too clearly in my opinion. I WOULD run this in 1v1 EDH, but in multiplayer (which I think the goal is for the list you have), it seems to have too much potential for drawing attention to yourself in comparison to the other tutor options.
-Llawan, Cephalid Empress; Carpet of Flowers - these are definitely amazing in the right metagame, but there's potential for them to be completely dead in some playgroups.
-Rite of Replication - I mean sure, it has the potential to be a game ender, but it seems like you've been dropping most of the Clone effects. I've never been particularly impressed with it, as Animar does a better job of abusing creatures than spells.
-Stranglehold - a potentially brutal hoser, but at 4 cmc is it likely to do enough in time to be relevant?
-Plasm Capture - holding up 4 mana for a counterspell is kind of rough (even with the upswing result). If you need to have something like this what about Counterflux since it will ENSURE that it resolves?

Also, there are a few cards I would definitely consider making room for:
Cloudstone Curio - I think you'd be better off running this as a combo piece instead of another Kiki/Twin slot. It also combos with various cards in the deck, such as the Eldrazi and Phyrexian Metamorph (just pay 2 Life).
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Often this is going to be free to cast, or considerably reduced given Animar's inherent broken-ness. With Curio you also run the option of Vindicating everything your opponents control.
Artisan of Kozilek - another Eldrazi that will often be free to cast, and will give you a chance to recoup any failed combo attempts.
Fierce Empath - a tutor for your big guns, which can solve various problems presented to you.

I mean I guess the thing that needs to be decided is, is the deck being built for multiplayer, 1v1, or a 'mixture' of both? How over-the-top aggressive do you want to be? (if you're running tutors and infinity-combos, then the answer must be 'very'). And then the other consideration is, what is your playgroup like -- this factors into card choice when it comes to hosers, resiliency to hate, which "impolite" cards you might drop, etc...

[Kuma]

A few cards I don't really like in your current list:

-Sylvan Tutor - the fact that it's a sorcery is a problem. It broadcasts your plans for the next turn too clearly in my opinion. I WOULD run this in 1v1 EDH, but in multiplayer (which I think the goal is for the list you have), it seems to have too much potential for drawing attention to yourself in comparison to the other tutor options.

Better to have a telegraphed plan than no plan. You can also use it turn one for Bloom Tender. There's such a power discrepancy between the best and worst cards in this deck, that I feel like you really need to maximize hitting your strongest cards.

-Llawan, Cephalid Empress; Carpet of Flowers - these are definitely amazing in the right metagame, but there's potential for them to be completely dead in some playgroups.

I believe that if Llawan and Carpet of Flowers are dead, your opponents soon will be as well. I don't think there are a lot of non-blue decks that can stand up to my Animar list, but yeah, cut them if you don't run into blue.

-Rite of Replication - I mean sure, it has the potential to be a game ender, but it seems like you've been dropping most of the Clone effects. I've never been particularly impressed with it, as Animar does a better job of abusing creatures than spells.

Not the strongest card in the list for sure, but the late game potential really helps, as kicking this should be game over.

Here's the thing about my list: I use Animar as a ramp spell moreso than a combo engine. I'm not doing lots of little things to build up Animar, which means I'm not running a lot of the usual suspects with regards to Animar synergy. Too many things have to go right to kill someone with an Animar.

-Stranglehold - a potentially brutal hoser, but at 4 cmc is it likely to do enough in time to be relevant?

It's one of the weakest cards in the list and it probably won't be around much longer.

-Plasm Capture - holding up 4 mana for a counterspell is kind of rough (even with the upswing result). If you need to have something like this what about Counterflux since it will ENSURE that it resolves?

I was thinking the same thing until I Plasm Captured my opponent's win condition and used the mana to cast Gamble -> Imperial Recruiter -> Kiki-Jiki -> Deceiver Exarch all in one turn.

Cloudstone Curio - I think you'd be better off running this as a combo piece instead of another Kiki/Twin slot. It also combos with various cards in the deck, such as the Eldrazi and Phyrexian Metamorph (just pay 2 Life).

When I ran Cloudstone Curio before, it felt like too may things had to go right to get anywhere with it. Every combo with it is at least three cards and without black it's difficult to assemble three card combos. It's much easier to hit two-card combos, which is why I'd never cut redundancy in the Kiki-Jiki/Splinter Twin combo.

Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Often this is going to be free to cast, or considerably reduced given Animar's inherent broken-ness.

Not in my list it wouldn't be.

Artisan of Kozilek - another Eldrazi that will often be free to cast, and will give you a chance to recoup any failed combo attempts.

Same problem with Ulamog.

Fierce Empath - a tutor for your big guns, which can solve various problems presented to you.

I like the guy, but I'm not sure if he finds enough relevant creatures. I'll have to take a look --- this list is getting an overhaul soon.

I guess the thing that needs to be decided is, is the deck being built for multiplayer, 1v1, or a 'mixture' of both?

Multiplayer.

How over-the-top aggressive do you want to be? (if you're running tutors and infinity-combos, then the answer must be 'very'). And then the other consideration is, what is your playgroup like -- this factors into card choice when it comes to hosers, resiliency to hate, which "impolite" cards you might drop, etc...

As over the top aggressive as possible.

[zmattk]

So with the banning of Sylvan Primordial, do you have any immediate thoughts on a replacement for him? Perhaps Prophet of Kruphix is worth testing?