Well I pretty much agree with almost all said here.
I should rename this thread more to do with counter-talk, but anyways.....
Counterspell seems to be considered overpowered by Wizards R&D.
Mana LEak is proof of that, but I'll always judge everything against Counterspell.
Force is no doubt the be-all and end-all for me for mono-blue.
I really dount any other counter will ever be printed to beat it!
I think the only other card that could come close to it is Mental Misstep, but it's no longer legal.
After that, I feel many of the other's are highly situational.
Pact of Negation is risky in most decks, and many of the "pay mana" ones like Daze, Spell Pierce are always gonna see play, but carry a certain amount of impotence too, as your opponent can simply wait to play around your counter.
I love them for combo decks that win by turn 2 or 3, but for game strategies that take longer I'd rather good ole Counterspell.
Disrupting Shoal is too situational for me to even consider putting in a deck, unless you're playing aganst delver and you a deck of 1-of's yourself. LOL.
I wouldn't say Arcane denial isn't bad, but I'm not writing it off - combo decks that play cards like Personal Tutor, stuff like Underworld Dreams - but it does have risk.
So what other counters are out there?
And what are the best five out there?
My aim with thread is to look for new counter interactions and ways to manipulate it.
Are there any other free counters, or otherwise, not mentioned in this thread as yet that may be playable in legacy?
The only way to make arcane denial good is to counter your own spell, imho.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^Originally Posted by Tacosnape
You could look them up yourself in gatherer - Daze,Misdirection,Commandeer,Mindbreak Trap
There are some other permanent based counters that can be explored, such as:
Counterbalance
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (Erayo's Essence)
Lifeforce/Deathgrip/Douse+Painter's Servant
Grimoire Thief
In the Eye of Chaos
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
If Owling Mine ever become a deck in legacy (i have no idea what this would require), but arcane denial might get played.
For those who don't know owling mine was a turboFog esque deck that ran ebony owl nesuke, and howling mine along with blue spells that bounced lands (and other permanents). it was a decent deck in Kamigawa Ravnica Standard.
1000% Serious
merfolkotpt on TMD
GarbageAggro where it matters
Grimoire Thief would be good in Modern Merfolk.... /side-thought
I like the idea of pointing Denial at your own stuff. That seems sweet!
Maybe blue Nic Fit could use it with stuff like:
Volcanic Fallout
Thrun, the Last Troll
//or
Blurred Mongoose
Vexing Shusher
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
There are occasions where it's not totally horrible, but you have to purposely create that type of environment. It's not easy to do, but it can be done of course. Stasis is the one that comes to mind first.
Arcane Denial was used in Stasis decks for a long time since those decks could care less if the opponent drew extra cards. In fact, they wanted you to get ahead on the draws.
Black Vise decks of old used to run Arcane Denial because drawing extra cards while several Black Vises were out was perfectly ok with people.
As mentioned before Chains of Mephistopheles actually negates the drawback though that's a rough card to play around with in the first place.
Any of the prison type decks could play it though it would have to be a lot better than what could be created today. Winter Orb just isn't what it used to be. Anything that could stop people from using the extra cards.
Anyway, for the most part, that card is pretty awful. It takes a lot to get it to work with what you are doing. Sadly casting on your own things that are uncounterable is probably the best use for it anymore.
This question is fairly trivial to answer. First, let's look at what Owling Mine does:
- Makes both players draw extra cards.
- Uses its extra cards to constrict enemy's mana, stranding the cards in their hand and then nuke them for having extra cards in hand.
As such, it has natural strength against reactive decks with a lot of expensive spells. Any deck with a lot of mana acceleration and cheap permanents is, on the other hand, a horrible match-up. As such, in Legacy, it would at the very least need a cheap, reliable and versatile tool that negates Aether Vial. It would also somehow need to be able to deal with creatures that do get through since Legacy is overrun with one-drops.
Finally, it would probably scoop the combo match-up no matter what (outside some super-efficient means to make all the cards they draw irrelevant by stopping them from playing anything with some hard lock) since it gives them all the tools they need to combo off and spends resources on that so it doesn't have resources up to stop the comboes.
In short, the closest it's ever been to playable has been when Mental Misstep was legal and it wasn't very viable back then since the metagame has never shaped up in a reactive enough way for Owling Mine to have anything to prey on. Chances are it'll never be viable in Legacy in any guise remotely resembling the Standard deck simply because the cardpool means you can't just ignore 1-drops (in Standard, it scooped to Gruul which had turn 1 Kird Ape as its most frightening play even post-sideboard).
And the chances are even lower than they are right now until Black Vise gets unbanned; not that it getting unbanned would really make it any more viable. Mental Misstep could help it a bit but even then, it's not just about printings but also the formation of a very focused and streamlined metagame, something Legacy seems to simply negate by having too many viable options.
if you want some counterspells at are in, try memory lapse compare to remand this card doesnt generate cantrips but this card serves as a tempo loss to the target player spell cuz that card will be draw on the ff. turn instead of a new fresh card
Cheers for the post Bruizer - that link was interesting, nice to see Arcane Denial does have potential in the right deck.
Remand & Memory Lapse have always looked risky to me - I understand there's times when you don't want a card to go to the graveyard (like reanimator), but against most matchups I want that threat going to the GY.
I run a few Dissipate or Faerie Trickery in some of the blue decks I own.
Considering cards like Remand do see play, what do you all think of Delay as an alternative?
Foil is another one that has me wondering.
Essentially it's another Force-alike, although the difference is discard instead of exiling *said* card.
I think this is worth mentioning, as discard is very helpful in some decks, especially as Foil doesn't stipulate it has to be a blue card.
Foil and Daze together in the same deck could have some good synergy, especially in an Infect deck running Ensnare, then pay 1 for Inkmoth to become a creature.
You have to discard two cards. You're trading three cards for one, which isn't a pretty good thing. People are sideboarding FoW out in games 2 and 3 against many decks, and the reason for that is the card disadvantage - and that disadvantage is only about ½ of the disadvantage that Foil gives you. Sure, discarding an Island is better than exiling a blue card most of the time, but on the other hand, you will have a blue card in hand more often than you will have an Island, because blue decks tend to run few lands and most of them are fetchlands or Wastelands, not Islands.
Someone I know tried running Foil in his Solidarity list four years ago. Solidarity is a deck that often couldn't care less about discarding Islands, and discarding Flash of Insight is usually something you can profit from. Despite that, it sucked back then, when the decks weren't even on the power level of the Legacy decks of these days. He ended up going 1-4 in that tournament.
It's true that foils win the game, but that's referring to the shiny cards, not this specific counterspell.
The land of waiting where the dead sit in their thoughts' shadow, by no moon lit.
They should errata Arcane Denial to 'must draw two cards' instead of 'may'. At least that way it's abusable. It wouldn't mean much in legacy but it might in more casual environments like EDH or Peasant.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
I don't know. What makes Remand good is its cantrip. This means that it can be worth countering even a weak card, as it at least might slow your opponent down a little and can draw you a card. It can honestly be better than Counterspell in a number of situations. Delay does get rid of the card for longer and does force them to play it when it comes back (rather than possibly at their own choice), but the lack of the draw a card really hurts it and basically makes it a worse Counterspell. Now to be fair it is 1U instead of UU, but my point is that Remand costs less than Counterspell and isn't strictly worse, whereas Delay is strictly worse.
You're missing the more important difference: Foil requires you to discard two cards, whereas Force of Will requires only one (and the 1 life too, I suppose). And as good as Force of Will is, that card disadvantage can be pretty bad sometimes. Foil just takes that and makes it even worse. And it is true that discard can be helpful in some decks, but surely there are better ways to do it than play a card that requires you to lose two cards (one of which has to be an Island). For example, Careful Study may cost 1 mana, but you get two cards out of it and can discard two of your choice.Foil is another one that has me wondering.
Essentially it's another Force-alike, although the difference is discard instead of exiling *said* card.
I think this is worth mentioning, as discard is very helpful in some decks, especially as Foil doesn't stipulate it has to be a blue card.
On a minor note, Foil's name has always bugged me because it makes it harder to search for it because it keeps popping up foil cards instead. Ditto with Time Spiral, which is both a card and a set.
RE: Foil,
I agree that it's no Force - that's a given!
My thought is mainly about decks that love to have something in the graveyard to abuse. So let's say you're running a deck with cards like maybe Reanimate or Goblin Welder, maybe some flashback mechanics etc.
And maybe you're after a budget alternative to Force to stop Storm combo;
Could Foil help here?
In Reanimator decks, I've seen peeps Thoughtseize themselves to get a beasty to the graveyard, setting themselves back a swamp/underground river etc in the process.
Yes it has mana issues in a streamlined Reanimator shell, for lack of island targets, but if we're looking at budget options, the deck won't be full of Underground rivers either.....
I know Foil is no alternative for Force, but I'm still not sure it's completely bad, maybe as a budget utility option?
Surely there are more ways to abuse the fact you're discarding any card and an island, instead of exiling a blue card?
Surely, there are. None of them are good enough.
The land of waiting where the dead sit in their thoughts' shadow, by no moon lit.
The only time I ever saw this card used effectively as a counter it was paired with Chains of Mephistopheles and the draw and extra card on your turn was used to dredge Life from the loam, which powered ravens crime.
It was a pretty cute deck but I don't really think it was competitive.
Was just thinking that this actually turns into a delayed draw 3 if you're using it in combination with a cavern of souls creature. You could probably make it work with a few wizard targets in some weird delver build. Being able to cast snap and draw 3 cards next turn might be a very strong option. However I can't help but think it's a bit too cute to be reliable.
You could also play 'I counter myself' with Blood Funnel Multani's Presence and Remand...(Yes that's terribad.)
I faced a BUG deck today that ran Shardless Agent on MWS.
His play: Shardless Agent, Cascade into Arcane Denial, he draws three cards on his next turn. I still beat his ass, though (with Affinity! and he ran Deed!).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
