[Article] Eternal Europe: What Legacy Needs

[Final Fortune]

That's easier said than done. What can the other colors do to increase deck consistency like blue?

Ok, black has card draw and tutors. Except they don't print the good stuff anymore.

Looting in red is nice, but still has a long way to go. Gamble effects are too risky and inconsistent to really increase consistency.

And how is white supposed to be getting better at library manipulation? More creature-based search spells like SFM, rebels and Ranger of Eos? Maybe a color-shifted Imperial Recruiter variant?

Regading Gamble, I've wondered what exactly is the threshold between card selection and card advantage combined with a randomized effect that people would accept, for instance would you play this card;

1R, Sorcery

Search your deck for two different cards, your opponent chooses a card and you discard that card. The remaining card goes into your hand.

or would you play this card;

1R, Instant

Draw 4 cards and then discard 2 cards at random.

There has to be a point where cost efficiency and card selection/advantage are worth the random factor for red effects.

or would you play this card;

R, Instant

Draw 2 cards, discard 1 card at random.
Flashback, 2R

There's plenty of design space here.

[Sloshthedark]

Excellent article... Imho it needs more decision based power cards and color inteligent spells, well you summed that up well

And most of all it needs experienced players and less copy-paste deckbuilding

[Barook]

Regarding the Psychotic Episode comment:

I think the Fateseal mechanic (e.g. on Spin into Myth, rather well-known for JMS' +2) should be shifted to black.

Denying draws is a rather black mechanic and it goes very well with discard:

Destroy their hand now, then reduce the number of actual topdecks later.

A discard spell for (with whatever manageable drawback) that also does Fateseal 2 would actually be a decent way for discard to fight Brainstorm and consorts.

[Hardcore]

@shawon,barook

seriously, if you tried adapt your playstyle you would have no problems with brainstorm.
If you play second and your opponent has not played ponder on his first turn, what do you do?

1. play discard anyway because;
a) the odds are less than 50% he has one in hand.
b) you are content with pulling a card, along with the info you get. (cabal therapy ftw)

2. play dark ritual to try push him into forcing it.
If he does you have just played a Hymn for B.
If he don't doesn't you can play a suitable combination of spells and creatures.
For example Inquisition of Kozilek and Dark Confidant.

3. Play a creature. Start build up the pressure. Grave crawler is especially nice for this.
Next turn you can either play Iok's and therapies to totally rape your opponents hand,
or play more dudes.

@shawon,
ten years ago you could, in vintage, completly empty an opponents hand, and still lose the game next turn! They only had to top deck a brain storm, or something else. Next they played Yawgmoth's will and all your discard was for nothing. In fact hate cards were better than discard.
Null rods and chalice of the void preferably.
This is obviously not the situation in legacy today. If you pull a card it usually stays in the graveyard.

Also there are no Gush or Arcane knowledge in the format.
You opponent can't just negate your discard with a good refill spell.
Fact is the environment for discard in legacy is one if the best in the history of magic.

[HammerAndSickled]

In regards to Red needing effective anti-Blue and anti-Combo applications, would a cheap mini-Wheel (meaning we all discard, then draw up to what we had before) be effective? Feldman's Dredge occasionally used Winds of Change as sideboard tech to slow down combos that take several pieces to assemble, yet I've never seen anyone else use that effect.

[CorwinB]

In regards to Red needing effective anti-Blue and anti-Combo applications, would a cheap mini-Wheel (meaning we all discard, then draw up to what we had before) be effective? Feldman's Dredge occasionally used Winds of Change as sideboard tech to slow down combos that take several pieces to assemble, yet I've never seen anyone else use that effect.

Obviously not the same environment, but I remember reading an article by Andy Probasco on Vintage where he said he didn't mind playing T1 Timetwister against combo decks that had not taken a mulligan because for them it was like drawing your first seven cards without being able to ship them back... IIRC, he developed that play based on numerous "Can I mulligan this ?" comments by people hit by Timetwister.

[Shawon]

@Hardcore

I never said I have a problem against Brainstorm. You're using specific examples as why discard is good against Brainstorm, with mono-black as a reference and let's be honest, mono-black is sub-tier. Your examples still don't contradict why discard isn't a strong option against decks with Brainstorm. All they need to do is hide their most important card. You can apply pressure, but having their main card on the top of their deck isn't going to slow them down too much, especially if they Brainstormed in resp to your discard and they untap right after. Your discard can't do anything to a SnT player that's just Brainstormed their SnT / Griselbrand on top of their deck.

Discard, like counters, burn or any other fundamental strategy, can be "good" when you pair it with another strategy such as applying pressure etc. All I'm saying is that discard is weak by itself. If the design space for discard was expanded, then better discard spells could be printed to be used along with the current arsenal of discard to make Black a stronger control color like it used to be.

[HammerAndSickled]

Obviously not the same environment, but I remember reading an article by Andy Probasco on Vintage where he said he didn't mind playing T1 Timetwister against combo decks that had not taken a mulligan because for them it was like drawing your first seven cards without being able to ship them back... IIRC, he developed that play based on numerous "Can I mulligan this ?" comments by people hit by Timetwister.

Yeah, that's exactly the point. Brainstorm lets blue decks run less land and build shakier decks overall because blue filtration makes them more consistent. So turn 2-3 pulling a mini-wheel might just screw them over enough to give you the turns to finish them off?

Maybe I'll put my money where my mouth is and sideboard Winds of Change against storm combo, haha!

[Mr Miagi]

What magic needs is Thoughtseize with scry 2 for oponents library

/end of trolling

[Hardcore]

@shawon

There are two big reasons why black discard sucks right now: topdecks and Brainstorm. Ignoring Psychotic Episode's mana costs, you can clearly see that its effect not only targets your opponent's hand, but it also targets your opponent's topdeck or a card that your opponent Brainstormed on the top. I think if modern black discard targeted the topdeck in addition to your opponent's hand, Brainstorm wouldn't be as powerful a solution to discard as it is now and black would be a stronger color.

well, maybe you didn't SAY it but it was implied, expecially in your quote.

my point is that Brainstorm is why discard is weak right now.

and MY point is that this is not the case, and that any opinion of that kind is because you do not adapt to the game, but prefer ask for more powerful hate spells. Ie. the reverse of the Ban bandwagon.

Brainstorm do let players hide valuable cards, but it doesn't prevent the discard effect, right?
So, your opponent may hide his good spells, but the net effect, however, is that he will be delayed since he lack a draw engine. To get those card back in his hand he must draw them one by one. Thus Thoughtseize is a timewalk for one black mana, which is quite good, don't you agree?

Brainstorm have marginal effect on the viability of discard in this format. It is the ability to get back cards from the graveyard that is the bane of discard. Past in Flames is a prime example.

Discard, like counters, burn or any other fundamental strategy, can be "good" when you pair it with another strategy such as applying pressure etc. All I'm saying is that discard is weak by itself. If the design space for discard was expanded, then better discard spells could be printed to be used along with the current arsenal of discard to make Black a stronger control color like it used to be.

Indeed, Discard cannot win the game by itself. However it is weak only in the sense that counterspells is better disruption than discard ever was. The problem is rather that it is to few good players that design and play black decks.

[JDK]

I was vainly searching for a rant about the miracle mechanic. :(

Anyway, I can completely share your concerns about Wizards neglecting red. Where's the Stoneforge/Thalia, Snapcaster, Goyf or Confidant for 1R?

[feline]

Maybe 1R 's is Price of progress or Goblin Piledriver, though the latter confine's it to a tribe. I suppose a card that works on so many different fronts for red for 1R, there just isn't

[thefringthing]

Very happy about this article. I agree on all points. I hope someone in R&D reads it.

[Shawon]

well, maybe you didn't SAY it but it was implied, expecially in your quote.

No, I did not IMPLY anything about MYSELF having a problem with Brainstorm. Read the quote again and discern the difference between stating an assertion and stating an opinion.

and MY point is that this is not the case, and that any opinion of that kind is because you do not adapt to the game, but prefer ask for more powerful hate spells. Ie. the reverse of the Ban bandwagon.

I'll repeat myself, I never said I had a problem with Brainstorm. Stop making shit up.

Brainstorm do let players hide valuable cards, but it doesn't prevent the discard effect, right? So, your opponent may hide his good spells, but the net effect, however, is that he will be delayed since he lack a draw engine. To get those card back in his hand he must draw them one by one. Thus Thoughtseize is a timewalk for one black mana, which is quite good, don't you agree?

If we're talking about SnT, not really, especially if you have no outs if it resolves. Anyway, that example wasn't conveying what I was trying to say. Many times an opponent just needs to protect one specific card. A SnT player can have >1 redundant combo piece and 1 Show and Tell. On turn 2, they would just need to protect their SnT from a Thoughtseize with Brainstorm before casting Snt on turn 3.

Needless to say, Brainstorm is also good at finding an auxiliary combo piece if one has already been discarded.

However it is weak only in the sense that counterspells is better disruption than discard ever was. The problem is rather that it is to few good players that design and play black decks.

Counters are better than discard because they can counter an opponent's topdecked spell on the stack. Discard can't do anything against the topdeck once it's drawn. I'm suggesting expanding the design space of discard to hit topdecks to address a problem, not because of my own incapability of adapting.

[Hardcore]

my apologies.

As for it being a problem I don't see it. Brainstorm is a good card, but it is just a cantrip.
SnT on the other hand is far stronger.
In fact I don't care about Brainstorm in control decks. They can dig for StP, but so what?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Brainstorm is a good card, but it is just a cantrip.

No, it's not. It's a Sift. There's a pretty huge distinction.

It's actually interesting question how good a cantrip would have to be to catch up to Brainstorm in power, but my suspicion is that a Ponder for 4 or even 5 cards would still be weaker because of the inability to swap out bad cards for good.

[JDK]

Maybe 1R 's is Price of progress or Goblin Piledriver, though the latter confine's it to a tribe. I suppose a card that works on so many different fronts for red for 1R, there just isn't

PoP isn't a creature and Piledriver is way too specific to be on the same powerlevel. Anyway, that was a rhetorical question. ;)

[ceustice]

Anyway, I can completely share your concerns about Wizards neglecting red. Where's the Stoneforge/Thalia, Snapcaster, Goyf or Confidant for 1R?

This is exactly my thinking red does need so dudes like these, and I'd love to see more spells like GSZ in other colors. GSZ being one of the best spells printed in years IMO.

[Hardcore]

but green sun Zenith really only support splashed decks right now. Mono green is still mainly combo elves. Btw it should have cost XGG; otherwise will all future good green creatures end up in splashed decks.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy to see so much feedback and discussion, seems I struck a nerve. I appreciate all the comments, and I'm happy to see I seem to have covered most concerns. A few selected answers:

@Shawon: Psychotic Episode style discard and Fateseal in general seems like an interesting area to explore for black. Having black library manipulation not be about making your draws better but there's worth definitely feels black at heart.

@Koby: Yeah, obviously a lot of what I wrote was based on things I heard or read at some point. I don't think I saw the "abuse the rotating nature of standard to print legacy cards" elaborated on before, though.

@Hollywood and others who think Legacy at the moment is fine: I totally agree that Legacy is at a very good point right now. We have a ton of variety strategically and games are incredibly complex and results are extremely skill-based. And yes, there clearly is a lot of room for creativity to reap rewards that needs exploring while many players are too lazy to do so.
I still feel letting Wizards know which cards we think had a positive impact on how the game plays out and which ones make games feel worse is very worthwhile as far as the future of Legacy and Magic as a whole is concerned.

@Mr Miagi: Sure, whiners gonna whine. That being said, just because a lot of people will call for unnecessary bans and complain about pointless stuff, that doesn't mean those that think differently should shut up. On the contrary, the only way to counteract the whining is for calmer minds to also make their voice heard.
Fact is I'm convinced WotC is listening to the player base, if only because it's in their own interest to make sure they sell as many cards as possible. At that point articulating our thoughts clearly is the best way to get what we want out of the game in the future.
Also, for the record, while I'm sad an engine as fun as Survival had to leave the format, I think it was correct to ban it when it happened if only to preserve strategic variety among creature-based decks. Survival decks were beatable, that wasn't the biggest problem, though. The problem is that it just didn't make sense to build a creature-based deck around any other engine as long as Survival/Vengevine was available.

@IBA: So you don't think Tendrils-Storm is a tier 1 archetype? Interesting.
As for the "format needs more efficient threats thing, in some ways, yes. I don't think it needs more Delvers or Geists, though, blue or not blue.

@Finn: Totally agree, making skill matter more whatever colors you decide to play would be awesome. I don't see how you can do that while avoiding some type of library manipulation effects in the other colors as one of the biggest things holding the skill-level of non-blue decks down is the inability to adjust what you have to what is going on in play. Hence why I'd like to see library manipulation that fits each colors flavor.

@Mewens: Yeah, some other way to make playable non-blue hate aside from giving it a bear-body would be sweet. Powerful hate cantrips maybe?
I agree that creatures were to weak far back in the past and I feel like things like KotR and Tarmogoyf actually hit a sweet spot as far as power level is concerned. SFM might be a little too good (when figuring in Batterskull) and Delver is, imo, above the curve of where creatures should be. To be honest I feel KotR perfectly hits the sweet spot where creatures are impressive enough to be very relevant without being oppressive and bad for gameplay.

@Shawon/Hardcore/IBA: Let's not turn this into another Brainstorm discussion.

@Hardcore:

but green sun Zenith really only support splashed decks right now. Mono green is still mainly combo elves. Btw it should have cost XGG; otherwise will all future good green creatures end up in splashed decks.

Actually, I feel like GSZ perfectly avoids being too splashable because it asks for green creature targets. Having GG in the cost would kill GSZ if only because paying 4 for a 2-drop isn't efficient enough.
Maverick, the primary GSZ deck other than Elves (which is mono green, or nearly so) definitely isn't a green splash deck. It's a full blown GW deck. If your complaint is that the deck isn't mono green, you should embrace the nature of a Dual/Fetch format a little more. True monocolor decks have been, are and will always remain quite rare in Legacy as long as duals don't get banned.