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Thread: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

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    [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    It has been a long time but I finally contributed another article, this time for an impressive site in my neck of the woods instead of MTGSalvation. You may want to check out the videos and other recent articles at SouthFloridaMagic.com.

    http://southfloridamagic.com/archive...s-the-new-blue
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Nice Article. I hate to play against vial hatebear decks and I think they really are very skill intensive and require you to understand exactly what your opponent is trying to do. Are there really no other versions of this deck out there splashing Green black or blue for other hatebears and some spells?
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I was reading down the article wondering who Daniel Payne was, then I found out at the bottom it was you!

    I have enjoyed seeing the deck develop over the years. I really enjoyed playing it with Cataclym; I understand though that decks need to evolve otherwise they will just die out (like Poison and Statis).
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Great article, with one exception:

    You tap Mangara and take your time before tapping Karakas, never yielding priority. He just might waste a Lightning Bolt.
    From my experiences with Storm, I'm pretty sure that if you're going to maintain priority, you have to say that right away or at least say something to the effect of "I'm thinking, not passing priority yet". My understanding that pausing to imply that you are passing priority, when in fact you haven't, is illegal.

    With a weaker player, you can activate your Mangara, and he might waste a Bolt which gives you an opportunity to bounce him back with Karakas. But against a "nicer" strong player, you will be asked whether you are passing priority to clarify the game state; against a strong player who holds you to the rules and isn't afraid to call on the judge, he will argue that you have indeed passed priority.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Do you mean like with Lion's Eye Diamond? I can certainly see an opportunity for someone to blunder this kind of thing with a significant delay. But I do it routinely with enough subtlety that it is not a problem. Opponents who do not quite know how it works are the ones you are aiming for. You have to physically move Mangara off the table too unlike letting a storm spell resolve. That may be a difference.

    I am not one for jedi tricks. But in this case it is fairly simple. You make a clear motion to tap Mangara, pause and do not look up, then follow through with Karakas. It should be just enough to give a hasty person enough time to do something. Anyone who does try to remove Mangara this way would have to understand what you are about to do, but not fully appreciate the sequence. I have never faced a judge ruling on this with maybe four successes in perhaps 20 tries. I would be really surprised to hear anyone say differently, but now I am interested in if I am testing my luck. Can anyone confirm what Lordofthepit is saying? CDR, are you reading this?
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Short answer - you have to explicitly say you are maintaining priority, else it passes automatically.

    --somewhere in the MTR--
    Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intends to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    For my part the "jedi" aspect of this seems just about impossible to actually pull off, but then again I had priority passing pounded into my head from pretty early on (when I started playing it was pretty common for MBC to Mutilate the board and pump their Nantuko Shade in response, before passing, and I needed to know why that works).

    I think this only works if APNAP is on your side. If you are NOT the active player(active player = player whose turn it is), and you put Mangara's ability on the stack, I don't think you have priority to play Karakas immediately afterwards. The game gives priority to the opponent, who has a chance to respond, then priority returns to you, and if neither player does anything then Mangara's ability resolves. So if I understand correctly, during another player's turn you'll actually pass priority and THEN play Karakas if that's your intended line of action. During your own turn, you do actually have to decide whether or not you're putting Karakas on the stack before you pass priority on Mangara's ability; if the opponent has no response, you'll not be able to decide after regaining priority that it's prudent to play Karakas' ability.

    The upshot of this is that trying to "jedi" your opponent into trying to Swords/Bolt/Murder/etc your Mangara, it will play out differently depending on whose turn it is. During your turn you'll need to make it clear that you're activating Karakas before passing, during an opponent's turn you technically do not have the opportunity to play Karakas' ability before passing.

    However I'm no judge, so if there's a hole in the bucket point it out to me.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    For my part the "jedi" aspect of this seems just about impossible to actually pull off, but then again I had priority passing pounded into my head from pretty early on (when I started playing it was pretty common for MBC to Mutilate the board and pump their Nantuko Shade in response, before passing, and I needed to know why that works).

    I think this only works if APNAP is on your side. If you are NOT the active player(active player = player whose turn it is), and you put Mangara's ability on the stack, I don't think you have priority to play Karakas immediately afterwards. The game gives priority to the opponent, who has a chance to respond, then priority returns to you, and if neither player does anything then Mangara's ability resolves. So if I understand correctly, during another player's turn you'll actually pass priority and THEN play Karakas if that's your intended line of action. During your own turn, you do actually have to decide whether or not you're putting Karakas on the stack before you pass priority on Mangara's ability; if the opponent has no response, you'll not be able to decide after regaining priority that it's prudent to play Karakas' ability.

    The upshot of this is that trying to "jedi" your opponent into trying to Swords/Bolt/Murder/etc your Mangara, it will play out differently depending on whose turn it is. During your turn you'll need to make it clear that you're activating Karakas before passing, during an opponent's turn you technically do not have the opportunity to play Karakas' ability before passing.

    However I'm no judge, so if there's a hole in the bucket point it out to me.
    It doesn't matter whose turn it is. If a player has priority and he plays a spell or activates an ability he still retains priority even if he isn't the active player.

    When a spell or ability resolves the active player gets priority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    Opponents who do not quite know how it works are the ones you are aiming for. You have to physically move Mangara off the table too unlike letting a storm spell resolve. That may be a difference.

    I am not one for jedi tricks. Anyone who does try to remove Mangara this way would have to understand what you are about to do, but not fully appreciate the sequence.
    I appreciate what you're saying, but mind tricks seem unnecessary. I've played the Mangara Karakas interaction explicitly stating priority, and what? They expend removal? Mangara still got a 2 for 1 exiling their most relevant permanent and expending a removal spell, seems fine.

    Especially now with Thalia the deck can have both legends on deck and Port down a removal color to bait removal and Karakas back whichever Legend is targeted, obviously activating Mangara given the opportunity. Just seems like this play opens one up to a bad judge call and is only valuable against player who don't understand priority. Marginal value.

    Off the Mangara Karakas tricks topic. I really liked the title for the article, but was a bit let down by the lack of delving into the value the threats provide against the format. You touched on Flickerwisp a little, but not much was said about Revoker. I feel like those 7-8 slots (as well as Thalia, who's value is pretty explicit) are really what 'counter'/foil the format and make this White control deck the 'new Blue'.

    Regardless awesome to see an article on the deck and props I really feel it's one of the better positioned decks facing the format.
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Short answer - you have to explicitly say you are maintaining priority, else it passes automatically.

    --somewhere in the MTR--
    Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intends to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point.
    Priority passes to whom? [the opponent]...who does something? That is a fine scenario. The opponent is welcome to an action. You WANT that. But if an opponent claims that I am passing priority and yet he has no action to take, that is just silly. That is the difference between the storm scenario and this one, I think. Again, someone correct me if I am wrong.
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I'm really not a fan of the jedi mind tricks, it's on you as a person to be explicitly clear in what your intentions are. If someone wanted to swords it in response or something you simply tell them that you haven't passed priority and to wait a moment.

    Getting them to burn removal on him is blatantly attempting to get around priority and seems pretty illegal.

    It'd be similar to pausing after saying you're playing Infernal Tutor and then cracking LED with it on the stack. Those actions are in a chunk, you are putting them on the stack in an order of your choosing at the same time (given that your opponent has no opportunity to respond between them) and as such need to be stated all at once.

    These sorts of things alongside the rampant belief that everyone is out to get you / people actually cheating at the game are amongst the things that disappoint me about competitive magic play. Every game of magic should be friendly and clear, if you're luring someone into a trap it should be within the rules of the game and you certainly shouldn't be taking advantage of people, there's no reason for it to not be like that.

    On a more relevant note, I've played against Death and Taxes, I quite like it. It's an interesting deck and is for sure annoying as hell to play against. Rishadan Ports are -brutal- sometimes. Sometimes they kinda suck though.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by trivial_matters View Post
    It doesn't matter whose turn it is. If a player has priority and he plays a spell or activates an ability he still retains priority even if he isn't the active player.

    When a spell or ability resolves the active player gets priority.
    Ah, right you are, rule 116.3c. It's even simpler than I let myself think, then.

    Are there really a ton of players that don't understand how to respond to things at the Legacy level? It's not like, fuckin, putting Chains of Mephistopheles into play in response to Opportunity via Vedalken Orrery or anything. I'm not a *great* player by any means, but I know how to respond to stuff...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    Priority passes to whom? [the opponent]...who does something? That is a fine scenario. The opponent is welcome to an action. You WANT that. But if an opponent claims that I am passing priority and yet he has no action to take, that is just silly. That is the difference between the storm scenario and this one, I think. Again, someone correct me if I am wrong.
    Yeah I'm sure you can't insist your opponent implicitly passed an empty stack. If your *opponent* tries to cast something, pass, then play stuff in response, that's crappy.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I am not one for jedi tricks. But in this case it is fairly simple. You make a clear motion to tap Mangara, pause and do not look up, then follow through with Karakas.
    I don't know where you guys are getting this stuff. The MTR is very explicit about this:

    "Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intends to retain it."

    So there's no "pause and do not look up", if you do not say "I am retaining priority" then you are considered to be passing priority.

    And, for the record, although I have absolutely no problem with "Jedi mind tricks" I find this particular scenario to be distasteful as well as probably cheating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    But if an opponent claims that I am passing priority and yet he has no action to take, that is just silly.
    If you place something on the stack you and your opponent have to both pass priority to let it resolve. There is nothing silly about that.

    While it's true that your opponent cannot ask for priority and then not do anything (MTR: "A player may not request priority and take no action with it."), that's not the scenario being described in this thread.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I'm familiar with this rule. Well to be honest, I am not in the habit of looking up rules. But I think we can all agree that it is how the game works. I don't think the discussion is about that rule though. Look at it this way.

    If I tap Mangara, point to the target, and immediately tap Karakas without saying anything about retaining priority, is it at all reasonable for a judge to rule that I lost my chance to use Karakas this way because Mangara's ability had resolved?

    The only difference between that scenario and the one I am recommending to players is to not be physically as fast in doing this. The actual pause is me slowly moving my hand to Karakas rather than quickly. The game is not meant to be one of hand speed. That is why the rules of priority exist in the first place.

    But crap. If it is so unclear, I should have said it better.

    EDIT: Also, by not rushing through the sequence you let Lands Wasteland his own Mishra preventing you from needing Karakas. A Reanimator opponent once responded with Recoil on his Terastodon, which I thought was cool.
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I don't think anyone here is confused about what you're saying. However, it's pretty clear that, at best, you're misrepresenting game state and at worst, cheating. I don't know why you're talking about hand speed as if that's something. As the player with priority, the burden is on you to declare that you aren't passing it and have further effects before passing priority. After that, priority is passing to the other player at which time he can respond.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I'm familiar with this rule. Well to be honest, I am not in the habit of looking up rules. But I think we can all agree that it is how the game works. I don't think the discussion is about that rule though. Look at it this way.

    If I tap Mangara, point to the target, and immediately tap Karakas without saying anything about retaining priority, is it at all reasonable for a judge to rule that I lost my chance to use Karakas this way because Mangara's ability had resolved?

    The only difference between that scenario and the one I am recommending to players is to not be physically as fast in doing this. The actual pause is me slowly moving my hand to Karakas rather than quickly. The game is not meant to be one of hand speed. That is why the rules of priority exist in the first place.

    But crap. If it is so unclear, I should have said it better.

    EDIT: Also, by not rushing through the sequence you let Lands Wasteland his own Mishra preventing you from needing Karakas. A Reanimator opponent once responded with Recoil on his Terastodon, which I thought was cool.
    According to your "moving the hand slowly" trick, your opponent couldn't actually bolt Mangara or Waste his Factory because he doesn't have priority. What you're doing is trying to bait him into playing a spell/activating an ability when you still have priority (according to you, the rules say you have to announce you're retaining priority), which is impossible. If he doesn't do that, then you go ahead and tap Karakas.

    That seems like cheating to me. And it only works on people who've never seen a Mangara/Karakas/Flickerwisp interaction before, hence most likely new players.
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    If you want to retain priority, you have to state that, per rules of the game. Saying nothing while tapping things shouldn't usually be enough, and if your opponent calls a judge when you do that kind of shady stuff with or without intent of tricking newbies, it will most likely be ruled in your opponents favor.

    You say that you are aware of the rules but according to your explanations, it doesn't look like that.

    Like basically everywhere, communicating clearly is important in this game. What you are trying to do here is cut back on communication in order to gain some potential, shady edge. Doesn't sound too professional.
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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I brought up the issue originally, but let's not toss the C-word around. To me, cheating implies knowing you're trying to get away with something illegal.

    Most of the subtleties of Magic involve misrepresenting your position, your hand, etc. in a legal way. I'm sure Finn thought he was just pulling off a nice Jedi mind trick; otherwise, he wouldn't be discussing it in his article for everyone to brand him a cheater.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    I agree with the Jedi mind trick defense here. There are two ways you can go on about the same thing:

    I'm tapping Mangaraholdonholdon-I'm retaining priority. Tap Karakas

    or

    I'm tapping Mangara..slight pause..Hold on, I'm retaining priority.. Tap Karakas.

    That 1.5 second pause can make your opponent reveal a card by casting a spell even though you didn't pass priority, or "had enough time to say you were retaining priority" :) So it's shady, but I don't think it's outright cheating.

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    Re: [Article] What Next for Legacy: White is the New Blue

    It's cheating if it's meant to make your opponent think that he is free to play a spell. If I was to judge such a situation, I would be very close to ruling it as cheating if I had the feeling Player A was trying to gain information by not clearly stating he was keeping priority right away.
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