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[Barook]

I feel like this card puts BG on the map as a legitimate (read: not fringe) color pairing now. Between this and Lotleth Troll, we may be getting close to a seriously competitive Jund aggro or BG midrange deck.

What about Lol-Troll (Lotleth Troll) and Wild Mongrel in a deck featuring Life from the Loam, among other things? Not only do you get powerful Wasteland recursion this way, but also a way to fuel both Wild Mongrel and Lol-Troll (get a bunch of Dryad Arbors via fetchlands and go to town - it's both a land and creature card, after all). Entomb could also act as a tutor to grab Cabal Thearpies/Wastelands/LftLs/Raven's Crime.

The downside would be a certain reliance on the graveyard.

[kwis]

Are you assuming that you're running GSZ and Dryad Arbor so you can feed the Troll as well as have access to a toolbox if desired? I guess one question worth asking is how well does your mainboard strategy work without relying on the graveyard? Perhaps you're looking at some kind of madness build that takes advantage of all possible aspects.

Perhaps it's worth starting in on a possible deck thread there. Still not sure just how strong these guys are though.

Possible considerations

Basking Rootwalla
Big Game Hunter
Circular Logic
Grave Scrabbler
Arrogant Wurm
Reckless Wurm
Dark Withering
Fiery Temper

[Barook]

Are you assuming that you're running GSZ and Dryad Arbor so you can feed the Troll as well as have access to a toolbox if desired? I guess one question worth asking is how well does your mainboard strategy work without relying on the graveyard? Perhaps you're looking at some kind of madness build that takes advantage of all possible aspects.

Perhaps it's worth starting in on a possible deck thread there.

GSZ certainly is an option. Although you can also use your fetchlands to pile up Dryad Arbors for shenanigans (Cabal Therapy, etc.).

It's just a vague idea yet. It certainly needs a Plan B against graveyard hate. I think the idea to convert your fetchlands into creatures/resources is intriguing, though.

[Aggro_zombies]

What about Lol-Troll (Lotleth Troll) and Wild Mongrel in a deck featuring Life from the Loam, among other things? Not only do you get powerful Wasteland recursion this way, but also a way to fuel both Wild Mongrel and Lol-Troll (get a bunch of Dryad Arbors via fetchlands and go to town - it's both a land and creature card, after all). Entomb could also act as a tutor to grab Cabal Thearpies/Wastelands/LftLs/Raven's Crime.

The downside would be a certain reliance on the graveyard.

My biggest problem with graveyard decks is that they're easy to hate, so you need a huge payoff to compensate. If you're obviously going all-in on discarding creatures to pump your Trolls and Mongrels, well (1) you're going to run out of cards in hand pretty quickly and (2) Maverick players are going to slam GSZ for Ooze and own you, and then in game two everyone has Crypts and Relics and whatnot to make your life hard. So the question is, is this deck good enough to justify the headache of knowing everyone dedicates sideboard space to you, and sometimes even maindeck space to you? For a deck like Dredge - explosive and able to dodge blue's counters - the answer is yes. For a fairer deck like this one, I think the answer might be no.

[Octopusman]

Really? No one's talking about:

Loxodon Smiter 1GW

Creature - Elephant Soldier
Loxodon Smiter can't be countered.
If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Loxodon Smiter, put it onto the battlefield instead of putting it into your graveyard.
4/4

Illus. Ryan Barger #178/274


What? No hexproof? /


Edit: Today's conversations: "Dies to bolt. Dies to plow."
Tomorrow's conversations: "It's counterable."

[Lemnear]

Can't counter nor discard ... 4/4 to avoid being bolted too ... This is a straight middlefinger in the face of People who don't enjoy creature combat or StoP


Edit: Octo was faster ...

[alderon666]

That guy is somewhere between Knight of the Reliquary and Thrun. IMO it's not good enough for Legacy right now. Knight (most of the time) is just bigger and Thrun is far harder to kill.

[Valtrix]

I mean, I don't think it will see play. It's not really better than Thrun, and Thrun doesn't really see play. Sure, the casting cost is less, but it sill dies to plowshares like everything else and the discard clause is basically irrelevant for Legacy. Plus, it has to compete with Knight of the Reliquary, which I don't think it does.

[Aggro_zombies]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

[Phoenix Ignition]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

Power creep that isn't even playable. KotR is just so much better and a 4/4 dies to any other beater in the format.

[Offler]

At least it needs both white and green mana. However the cmc3 is just ridiculous.

Since I prefer to play Wizard Tribal deck where creatures at CMC3 have mostly 2/2, something like this is really to compete power level of dreaded Vampire Nighthawk.

Counterbalance as a problem in eternal formats? This brings be back to some debates to ban Sensei's divining top in german highlander. When no reason was find some people started to argue about "slow play"... Still counterbalance plays with chance of hitting correct CMC, while SDT and Scroll Rack increase this chance greatly.

Abrupt decay can be redirected, elephant and verdict however cant be...

[Sigar]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

And still useless in Legacy.

[alderon666]

I like this kind of pushed uncounterable cards. It creates a more dinamic format.
I could play Abrupt Decay and own RUG and CB all day long. But then the format might just skew toward control running less counters and beating you with Jace. Then Maelstrom Pulse might become a better choice. It just creates a different angle of attack. I don't just have to splash for red to play Pyroblast in all of my decks.

[Lemnear]

I like this kind of pushed uncounterable cards. It creates a more dinamic format.
I could play Abrupt Decay and own RUG and CB all day long. But then the format might just skew toward control running less counters and beating you with Jace. Then Maelstrom Pulse might become a better choice. It just creates a different angle of attack. I don't just have to splash for red to play Pyroblast in all of my decks.

Think about that scenario: Control Decks ran less counters and more board-solutions -> Stack-based-combo strikes back -> more hate-prints/crying/bannings ;P

Don't think that "uncounterable" becomes somewhat oppressive so Legacy-Decks really have to adjust to that clause.

Decay is a unique card for a Color combination that really needs some Premium spells aside from deed or maelstrom pulse which are both too expensive/fragile for todays Tempo-Meta (daze, pierce, stifle, etc)


Edit: the only Deck that really suffers from this printing is counterbalance which seems an already outdated model of Control since a) threats Like delver, reanimator, ad nauseam, S&T, Thalia, SFM, KotR come into action before CB is online, b) countertop eats a shitload of mana each turn, c) people Play significant more cards in the 3/4cc sector

Counterbalance's only remaining duty is to act as a One-sided Chalice @1 to protect your cards from Swords, spell pierce and Lightning bolt if paired with SFM or dreadnought 0.02$

[Malchar]

A 4/4 for three mana with no drawbacks, and in fact two (minor) upsides. Oh power creep, how we love thee...

Let's just be thankful that it doesn't come into play when you discard it to lotleth troll.

Lotleth troll seems pretty nice with basking rootwalla, vengevine, and/or bloodghast. Of course, it's no survival. Maybe you could toss in anger and do some kind of jund midrange. There's also Volrath's shapeshifter...

[Erdvermampfa]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

I'll take that bet.

[Barook]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

Nobody said that you must play bad cards like Rootwalla. The "dies to StP" argument has been done to death. Fauna Shaman/GSZ for Sylvan Safekeeper could help against that. Being vulnerable to GY hate depends on how much you rely on it. And nobody said that you can't run both Goyf and Troll.

I wouldn't dismiss the card that easily. There might be some cool interactions like Loam --> Dryad Arbor if you think outside the box.
Ulvenwald Tracker might be an interesting creature removal engine with it, considering both are GSZ-able and not too terrible on their own.

[Illissius]

They should've printed Abrupt Decay three years ago.

[Vacrix]

The Loleth Troll will prove to be quite useless in Legacy. Although it has a lot of flavor (despite trample) it can't compete with other creatures played right now. The regenerate ability is obviously kind of pointless due to swords and terminus while the discard ability doesn't justify playing bad cards like Basking Rootwalla. Furthermore you have to hazard the consequence of being vulnerable to GY hate. Tarmogoyf is still the better option.

I disagree. Regeneration isn't necessarily only useful for protecting against removal spells. Its great at getting through when you are even on P/T vs. a potential blocker. That leads to some crazy combat tricks because you can attack with it into a slightly larger creature, should they block knowing it can get bigger or perhaps you are just going to regenerate it. Also, it blocks shit all day long. As far as removal spells go, Abrupt Decay is definitely going to see play and says nothing about preventing regeneration. Deed is still played, which can be relevant if you want to blow the board and save your dude if you play both in the same deck. You can GSZ for this creature as previously mentioned and cards like Vengevine and any of the madness creatures really don't mind being discarded. Its like a super-Wild Mongrel, which was awesome despite only being able to make itself big until end of turn and change its color: this guy stays big and he regenerates. This card has the potential to be very Legacy playable.