Playable or not? Ancestral Knowledge

[slave]

Hi all,

I'm a big fan of tutor spells, but blue has very few outside Cunning Wish.
Lim-Dul's Vault is one I can think of, but lately I've been playing Ancestral Knowledge in it's place.
But I've not seen decks running Ancestral Knowledge often at all.

Ancestral has the ability to get us one card - cos no-one is gonna be paying cumulative upkeep after that first card, - but together with all the filter cards blue has, we don't even need to pay the upkeep costs at all, or wait until the next turn.
A simple Brainstorm and we've netted the three cards we wanted etc etc at instant speed, before any instant speed Bounce etc. can kill it.

In testing I've found both Ancestral & Vault have their uses (and issues), but Ancestral seems to be easier to cast with a cheap (wasteland proof) manabase, easier to cast against someone running land destruction, and although it doesn't always net you the combo card you want from the top ten cards, you do get to shuffle your deck next turn.

So, is it playable?
Do any of you use it in your decks?

[Julian23]

The first things that came to mind:

• Sorcery Speed! Which decks would want to pay 2 mana main phase to not do anything at all? Lim Dul's Vault seems sooo much better.
• Card Disadvantage! Blue already has to make up for Force of Will. Paying 2 mana mainphase for a better version of Index as opposed to a real draw spell seems bad.

[lordofthepit]

Not playable.

2-cc sorcery speed "slow-trip" that doesn't even give you a card. I only call it a slow-trip since your card quality improves on your next draw, but if it gets destroyed or if you don't want to pay the cumulative upkeep, you haven't even improved your card quality. (Maybe marginally due to being able to remove your crappy cards from the game.)

The best thing you can do with this crap--besides sell it as a bulk rare--is to find a way to destroy it in response to the come-into-play trigger, so that you get the benefits of stacking the top of your library without getting dicked by the random shuffle trigger when it leaves play. And that's pretty awful.

[RJM]

2 cmc 'double' Index that can, as bad as that effect is already, even be undone if it leaves play before you draw anything is just really awful.

[Julian23]

LOL, people talking about actually destroying it? I'd be either very desperate or hilariously far ahead to destroy Ancestral Knowledge . Unless it was used in some kind of combo deck. Even then, at there are at least 10 cards in the format, that cost less and do more.

[slave]

The first things that came to mind:

• Sorcery Speed! Which decks would want to pay 2 mana main phase to not do anything at all? Lim Dul's Vault seems sooo much better.
• Card Disadvantage! Blue already has to make up for Force of Will. Paying 2 mana mainphase for a better version of Index as opposed to a real draw spell seems bad.

Exactly - this was first thought too, for the same reason's that Lim-Duls Vault isn't a great choice.
I've been using it as a budget option only in casual combo decks.

Even then, at there are at least 10 cards in the format, that cost less and do more.

Could you share some examples with us that aren't conditional? (unlike Peer through Depths)

[lordofthepit]

Exactly - this was first thought too, for the same reason's that Lim-Duls Vault isn't a great choice.
I've been using it as a budget option only in casual combo decks.[/I]

Is this for Legacy or for some Highlander format? Since Legacy decks are 60 cards, you'll never need more than 20 cantrips/pseudo-tutor effects, and there are many more than 5 such cards you'd play before this: Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, Impulse, Portent, Serum Visions, Index, Lim-Dul's Vault, Careful Study, Sleight of Hand, Peer through Depths, Telling Time, Omen, Dream Cache, Diabolic Vision, etc.

None of them besides Sensei's Divining Top are remotely expensive, so not sure why you'd resort to Ancestral Knowledge as a budget option.

[Julian23]

Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder - they actually draw a card. Chances are, you already play those.
Lim-Dul's Vault - why technically the same cmc, it is Instant which is huge. Also better tutoring and less conditional than Ancestral Knowledge.

Thing is, unconditional Tutoring isn't meant to be part of Legacy. If you want it so bad that you are willing to even suffer from card disadvantage, you want it because of very specific cards. Run Tutors for those specific cards (Enlightened Tutor? Burning Wish? Merchant Scroll? Living Wish?) and chances are you're much better off.

[nevilshute]

I've tinkered with this card in my Food Chain/Misthollow Griffin deck. The only reason being the lack of a way to tutor for Food Chain in Green and Blue and the fact that if I see a griffin in the top 10 cards I can exile it which is great.

But even in this deck I found Ancestral Knowledge to be lacking. I've ended up not going for it. It's too random and the logic that "seeing your top 10 cards should get you the one card you need as long as it's a 4-of" just didn't pan out that way for me. Numerous times I used it and failed to dig into a Food Chain. The card is too unreliable. And it's a bad card to draw when you're under pressure and looking for a solution to pressing problems because it's too slow. Yes it gets better if you're also holding a Brainstorm and have plenty of mana, but more often than not that isn't the case.

Underwhelming card, sadly. I like cards with "Ancestral" in their name ;)

[slave]

Thanks guys.

Is this for Legacy or for some Highlander format?
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, Impulse, Portent, Serum Visions, Index, Lim-Dul's Vault, Careful Study, Sleight of Hand, Peer through Depths, Telling Time, Omen, Dream Cache, Diabolic Vision, etc.

None of them besides Sensei's Divining Top are remotely expensive, so not sure why you'd resort to Ancestral Knowledge as a budget option.

Mainly just because I already have some of them, and they're not conditional on only drawing a sorcery/instant like Peer Through Depths is.
They're useful in UB decks running Phyrexian Arena or draw lots decks etc.
But I do agree with all you said.

Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder - they actually draw a card. Chances are, you already play those.
Lim-Dul's Vault - why technically the same cmc, it is Instant which is huge. Also better tutoring and less conditional than Ancestral Knowledge.

Thing is, unconditional Tutoring isn't meant to be part of Legacy. If you want it so bad that you are willing to even suffer from card disadvantage, you want it because of very specific cards. Run Tutors for those specific cards (Enlightened Tutor? Burning Wish? Merchant Scroll? Living Wish?) and chances are you're much better off.

Yup.^^
Many of the blue combo decks I own have 12 of Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain etc., Some of the combo decks are capable of having both parts of the combo fetched with a Wish or a Scroll, but a lot of them aren't.
In those decks I've tried subbing out a couple of the filter, and popping in a couple Ancestral's, it's been okay.
Not great...just okay.

[Koby]

I used it in 250 prismatic to cut through the garbage. Prolly not needed for 60 card decks tho.

[Rico Suave]

It seems as though the only real advantage of Ancestral Knowledge is how it can be safely cast with simple basic Islands.

In most instances a deck which would want this effect is improved by adding another color. Compare Ancestral Knowledge to Burning Wish, and the difference is like day and night for what it does to a deck's power level, efficiency, and smoothness.

In some rare circumstances you might find a strictly blue combo deck that can take advantage of Ancestral Knowledge, but as you can see those decks don't perform too well. This is due in large part because mono-U combo must resort to otherwise weak cards, with Ancestral Knowledge being an example.

[menace13]

I used it in 250 prismatic to cut through the garbage. Prolly not needed for 60 card decks tho.

Why wouldn't you run Phyrexian Portal, and Parallel Thoughts instead?

Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder - they actually draw a card. Chances are, you already play those.

Sums up why for Legacy.

[Oiolosse]

I have always been a fan of this card. I know it's not very good, but it's unique in what it does and so I've tried to build with it from time to time.

Some fun uses include:
-removing unneeded lands so that you top-deck quality
-Miracles
-works fairly well with brainstorm/ponder


Can you stifle the "if leaves play ability"? I read that was "whenever leaves play"

I first used Ancestral Knowledge when I was making a goofy casual deck. I ran out Shared Fate as fast as possible (without protection). Every single card in the deck either drew cards or filtered cards. I'd use Mishra's Bauble and the other one (can't think of it) to draw cards at the beginning of next upkeep. Pop a couple of those and draw what I re-ordered with Ancestral Knowledge. When Shared Fate hit the table, if they didn't counter or have an immediate answer then they forever drew bullshit.

It was super casual and rarely worked but when it did it's a very unique way to win. They either lost to their own cards (me playing them) or they decked me out but effectively killing them. I used Paradigm Shift last moment to make it quicker. Good times, hitting the pipe and making retarded ass decks. I love Magic.

[metamet]

We've considered it in Food Chain Griffins, as there's some synergy with Griffin, but Manipulate Fate is just better.

The problem is that it's a mana sink that sometimes doesn't do anything.

[rufus]

The leaves play trigger is definitely stifleable.

...
I first used Ancestral Knowledge when I was making a goofy casual deck. I ran out Shared Fate as fast as possible (without protection). Every single card in the deck either drew cards or filtered cards. I'd use Mishra's Bauble and the other one (can't think of it) to draw cards at the beginning of next upkeep. Pop a couple of those and draw what I re-ordered with Ancestral Knowledge. When Shared Fate hit the table, if they didn't counter or have an immediate answer then they forever drew bullshit.
...

Hmm.. It might work well with Puca's Mischief too.

[Dark Ritual]

This card actually costs 3 mana if you want to draw the top card as it has that annoying upkeep cost. If I'm playing a 3 mana tutor in legacy it's going to be intuition, which isn't card disadvantage. But why bother with intuition when surgical is all over? Playing playsets of preordain, ponder, brainstorm, and gitaxian probe are pretty much guaranteed to find you what you need in legacy if you're looking for a specific card with them. And I don't see people playing 16 cantrips.dec in legacy because there isn't a need to. The card isn't playable in legacy as it is glacially slow.

Sure you can stifle the when it leaves the battle triggered ability, but I honestly don't see the point unless you have 2+ cards you want on top. And the chances of that happening are pretty low and if they do happen you can simply pay the cumulative upkeep cost twice in all likelihood.

[slave]

Thanks for all the replies here everyone!

It seems as though the only real advantage of Ancestral Knowledge is how it can be safely cast with simple basic Islands.

In most instances a deck which would want this effect is improved by adding another color. Compare Ancestral Knowledge to Burning Wish, and the difference is like day and night for what it does to a deck's power level, efficiency, and smoothness.

Very true.....except, Burning Wish can only find sorceries'.
Kinda my point. For a combo player searching for anything that isn't a sorcery or instant in blue, whether it's their answer to a problem or combo piece, there doesn't seem to be many blue cards that dig very deep into a library.
Whilst Ancestral Knowledge is fairly sucky, it does go pretty deep, and gives us the opportunity to shuffle away (post Brainstorm) stuff we'd rather not see again.

I have always been a fan of this card. ........

...... I used Paradigm Shift last moment to make it quicker. Good times, hitting the pipe and making retarded ass decks. I love Magic.

I love Paradigm Shift. I have it in a deck with Laboratory Maniac, with only instants and cycling with a few other ways to find my pieces.
Whenever I've played it people never seem to have seen 'Shift before...."WTF is that? you're doing what now??!"

We've considered it in Food Chain Griffins, as there's some synergy with Griffin, but Manipulate Fate is just better.

The problem is that it's a mana sink that sometimes doesn't do anything.

Manipulate Fate is an effective, but very niche card - I'm sure a lot of decks couldn't go near that one!
I love the way it works though...that deck is definitely one of those "What the hell happened?" kinda decks the first time you see it work.

If I'm playing a 3 mana tutor in legacy it's going to be intuition, which isn't card disadvantage. But why bother with intuition when surgical is all over? Playing playsets of preordain, ponder, brainstorm, and gitaxian probe are pretty much guaranteed to find you what you need in legacy if you're looking for a specific card with them.

Yup.
There are plenty of other instant options too, like Peek, Opt, Street Wraith, Lonely Sandbar etc etc., but they don't go deep into the deck at all.

The reason why I'm wondering about this sub-par card is all about the depth it can go through the deck, with other cantrips in assistance for combo decks.
A lot of great combo decks like Sneak-Show have multiple cards that can perform the same job. But some combo decks rely on only 4 cards to get their mojo on.

The number of times I've survived until turn 6 or 7 against a slow opponent by burning all my counter just to stay alive and keep them from going off, only to find my combo piece when I'm certain to walk straight into a counter war I'm gonna lose.....too many to remember.

And that's why I'm looking for way to find combo pieces in mono blue as early as possible, that don't care what I'm actually looking for whether it's an enchantment, artifact, sorcery, instant or creature - and without black.

I'm dreamin' right?

[Rico Suave]

Very true.....except, Burning Wish can only find sorceries'.
Kinda my point. For a combo player searching for anything that isn't a sorcery or instant in blue, whether it's their answer to a problem or combo piece, there doesn't seem to be many blue cards that dig very deep into a library.
Whilst Ancestral Knowledge is fairly sucky, it does go pretty deep, and gives us the opportunity to shuffle away (post Brainstorm) stuff we'd rather not see again.

Burning Wish is merely one example. If you want to find a card of a different type, then you can splash a different color for the appropriate tutor.

Furthermore, it is unwise to judge Ancestral Knowledge as if you have a Brainstorm available. Often you will not have Brainstorm available. When you do have Brainstorm available, it is often better to keep your options open and use it at the correct time instead of being forced to use it at a bad time because your sub-par card will suck without Brainstorm.

And that's why I'm looking for way to find combo pieces in mono blue as early as possible, that don't care what I'm actually looking for whether it's an enchantment, artifact, sorcery, instant or creature - and without black.

Blue does not have the quality cards to do what you are looking for it to do. Your deck will suffer if you limit yourself on colors.

[ReinVos]

There's actually a lot in blue.

Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish grab instants.

Personal Tutor grabs sorceries.

Intuition finds you anything if you have three copies of it in your deck.

The only things you can't find reliably are enchantments, creatures and artifacts (because Fabricate sucks), but if you splash white you get Enlightened Tutor and if you splash green you get Green Sun's Zenith, Living Wish or Worldly Tutor.

If you really want to stay mono blue and use tutors I'd recommend playing Spiral Tide.